*Graphite Design Lovers Anonymous* Tour AD UB vs IZ vs XC and NOW vs TP! ...and HD....and VR

[belh22]

GC is basically the new TP. Will did some research and spoke to his people. 

[B.Easy]

6 hours ago, belh22 said:

GC is basically the new TP. Will did some research and spoke to his people. 

 

Who is Will and who are his people?  What does "basically" mean?

 

I can see that being GD's goal for filling out their lineup, but they feel and perform quite different. 

 

I own 3 TP's in varying weights and I'll have my second GC soon.  The GC is a tighter overall profile from tip to grip.  It seems that GD had stability as a high priority when they designed this shaft.  You do not have to mess with up-flexxing or severe tipping in order to gain the requisite stability for higher SS, like you do with the TP.  You can have the golfer focus on feel and timing when you're fitting and not worry about excessive lead shaft deflection, which is nice.  I've run into a number of guys over the years that loved the feel of the TP in the driver, but we really couldn't make it work.  It's my belief, so far, that the majority of folks who like the feel of the GC are going to be able to make it work. 

 

What GD has done with their last few releases is impressive.  I don't believe any of them are 1 for 1 replacements of any prior shaft.  Very distinct profiles with lots of feel and stability for high speed players seems to be their new philosophy.  

[third-times-a-charm]

15 hours ago, B.Easy said:

 

Who is Will and who are his people?  What does "basically" mean?

 

I can see that being GD's goal for filling out their lineup, but they feel and perform quite different. 

 

I own 3 TP's in varying weights and I'll have my second GC soon.  The GC is a tighter overall profile from tip to grip.  It seems that GD had stability as a high priority when they designed this shaft.  You do not have to mess with up-flexxing or severe tipping in order to gain the requisite stability for higher SS, like you do with the TP.  You can have the golfer focus on feel and timing when you're fitting and not worry about excessive lead shaft deflection, which is nice.  I've run into a number of guys over the years that loved the feel of the TP in the driver, but we really couldn't make it work.  It's my belief, so far, that the majority of folks who like the feel of the GC are going to be able to make it work. 

 

What GD has done with their last few releases is impressive.  I don't believe any of them are 1 for 1 replacements of any prior shaft.  Very distinct profiles with lots of feel and stability for high speed players seems to be their new philosophy.  

I always completely disregard the "new Tour AD model X is a replacement for Y" or "new model X is an upgraded Z" or etc.

 

IME that is never the case. Even when the EI profiles are close - and when testers like Russ Ryden make similar claims on paper (love his data, no issue there) - I personally do not feel thats the case after hitting them.

 

GD is the king of subtle changes and IMO the shafts are never replacements or the same - they all achieve something slightly different hence why you see so many players still playing the DI for example as it has gone unchanged for so long aside from the graphics and not 'upgrading' to a UB, or TP, or etc which have been touted as "DI upgrade" for years, now.

Edited November 24, 2024 by third-times-a-charm

[Mob]

I played the VF in a 5 stiff today in my Titleist TSR2 head and was very impressed with the results.  I hit 5/7 fairways. The 2 missed fairways were off by 5 feet.  The ball flight was a gentle draw on almost every swing except for the 2 missed fairways (one was a toe miss and the other was a heel miss).  I didn't think I would be able to play this shaft comfortably, as I typically like to feel a "kick" at impact, and the VF has a very linear feel, with little kick, but I got used to it fairly quickly.   I thought this would be a short experiment, but now it is a serious contender to be in the bag next season.

[Morry]

Managed to snag a stiff in both the TP and HD 

going to put in 3w and have a battle for the bag 

can't Wait to see the different results 

 

[Latetogolf76]

Just put a 7x xc in my titleist tsr3 8* head and it’s feels wonderful was playing tensei 1k black 65x and just got sick of the lack of feel although results were very good the xc seems more forgiving on mishits straighter and longer but also provides more feedback on strike location the 1k black didn’t like anything other than a fully committed swing the xc on the other hand performs with a smooth swing and when I go after one very impressive.

[jeffrey r]

9 hours ago, Morry said:

Managed to snag a stiff in both the TP and HD 

going to put in 3w and have a battle for the bag 

can't Wait to see the different results 

 

 

Let us know. I only play the TP in my driver, but I am more impressed with it each time I play it. Really an exceptional shaft.

[mattman]

Between putting an HD and an IZ in driver... hit both in demos a year+ back and liked both. Remember HD feeling more agressive and IZ having a slightly more pillowy feel. Liked both. Want to say the HD launched lower... any opinions?

[phizzy30]

16 hours ago, mattman said:

Between putting an HD and an IZ in driver... hit both in demos a year+ back and liked both. Remember HD feeling more agressive and IZ having a slightly more pillowy feel. Liked both. Want to say the HD launched lower... any opinions?

IZ was 1-2* higher launch compared to HD for me when I did testing on trackman awhile back.  Both feel linear however, HD was slightly more stable/anti-left.  On paper, it looks as though HD is supposed to be the "new/updated" IZ, however, there are definite significant differences as you could probably see/feel.  

[mvvraz]

17 hours ago, mattman said:

Between putting an HD and an IZ in driver... hit both in demos a year+ back and liked both. Remember HD feeling more agressive and IZ having a slightly more pillowy feel. Liked both. Want to say the HD launched lower... any opinions?

I have the IZ in my driving iron, because it produces loads of height and spin - I generally feel like driving irons don't produce nearly enough spin so it's been perfect for me 

 

I have the HD in my driver, but that's like a Ventus Black with some kick and feel to it. Absolutely love it personally, can't recommend it enough. For me it launches way lower, with a less spinny, more penetrating flight to it

[mattman]

Thanks to you both for the feedback. Agree that it's the more linear of the options, though still firmly in the blueboard category like most Tour ADs. I had an MT years ago which I really liked... and I do think this is is a similar shaft to that (maybe in the same way the GC is "similar" to the TP). I like that the midsection is a little firmer as I've not had the most optimal results from driver shafts with too prominent of a hinge going from the softer midsection to the stiffer tip (such as the speeder evolution VI). I just remember really liking the snap of the HD and feeling like the ball really popped off the face... so leaning that way. I will update the thread whenever I end up playing with one of these. 

Edited November 29, 2024 by mattman

[Golf Pig]

10 hours ago, mvvraz said:

I have the IZ in my driving iron, because it produces loads of height and spin - I generally feel like driving irons don't produce nearly enough spin so it's been perfect for me 

 

If that's the IZ 0.370 hybrid shaft, note that it's a slightly different profile than the IZ 0.335 driver shaft. I can't seem to get along with the IZ in my driver or fairway woods, but it's been a great hybrid shaft. The TP and UB have been my favorite driver shafts.

Edited November 29, 2024 by Golf Pig

[Morry]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:31 AM, Morry said:

Managed to snag a stiff in both the TP and HD 

going to put in 3w and have a battle for the bag 

can't Wait to see the different results 

 

Think I may throw a XC regular into the mix as well

 

waiting on the new 440 3/4 wood to test these 3 in....

[Prudacris]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:57 PM, third-times-a-charm said:

Same feels for me in the UB. Linear with a very stiff handle that even when you felt the shaft load in the upper mid it still felt boardy in the handle. Very Tensei-pro-esque with the dupont kevlar in that handle section.

Ok so I play a tensei 1k pro white 60tx in driver…and also a DI 8x in 5 wood which I both love. Been really struggling to find a 3wood shaft I like. The tensei 1k black 7x just feels like it lacks responsiveness. Deciding between a DI or UB 7x to put in my tsr2+ 14.5deg.  In theory UB seems like a good fit but I’m nervous from the reviews I’ve read on here. Any help on what to go with is appreciated as I don’t have the chance to test either one really. Thanks in advance.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Prudacris

[mattman]

Hit a GC on a LM today and it really reminded me of the HD as far as feel goes. A tighter feeling shaft compared to the kickier DI... a couple interesting things to note from golfshaftreviews stats:

- the GC now holds the crown as most counterbalanced tour AD shaft (previously the VR)

- by their measurements, it looks to be about a full flex stiffer than any previous Tour AD, including last year's VF (the VF 6 X for example has roughly the same EI area and shaft deflection amount as a GC 6 S).

I was considering going 6 stiff in the GC when I've always played X with their stuff. But the 6 X gave me enough pop and felt good really good. I'd probably lean that way. In the linked Cool Clubs video they claim it's flex-for-flex about 15 CPMs stiffer than other GD shafts.

- the EI profile looks very similar to the Diamana BB. Maybe a slightly firmer mid and smaller hinge in the transition from the mid-section to the tip.

 

 

edit: aforementioned video

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by mattman

[CDM]

23 hours ago, Prudacris said:

Ok so I play a tensei 1k pro white 60tx in driver…and also a DI 8x in 5 wood which I both love. Been really struggling to find a 3wood shaft I like. The tensei 1k black 7x just feels like it lacks responsiveness. Deciding between a DI or UB 7x to put in my tsr2+ 14.5deg.  In theory UB seems like a good fit but I’m nervous from the reviews I’ve read on here. Any help on what to go with is appreciated as I don’t have the chance to test either one really. Thanks in advance.

 

I have the UB in my 3 wood and love it. I will say I hit more of a draw with it but that could also be the club settings as my driver is 2 degrees open.  So far it might be the best 3 wood I have played.   *note I have a history of horrid play with 3 woods so pretty happy to be able to feel like I can control it 

[Morry]

So.....6-s user should game 5-r?

 

that's what I am thinking....

[mattman]

15 minutes ago, Morry said:

So.....6-s user should game 5-r?

 

that's what I am thinking....

I would say 6 SR or maybe 5 S

Edited December 2, 2024 by mattman

[BCA]

I saw all the stuff about the GC playing stiffer to flex, as mentioned above, and ordered it in 6 SR rather than my normal S. I also noticed that the stiffness “rating” (EI area) on golfshaftreviews was 16 for the 6 SR and that aligned with other driver shafts I’ve played well with (all stiff). The GC 6 S has an EI area of 17, so that would seem to indicate that it’s a bit stiff to flex. Anyway, the SR felt great but much more loose than expected. I could have played it but have Will building me a 6 S instead. We’ll see how that goes…I have high hopes. YMMV but for me, it seems like my normal S flex would have been the way to go. 
 

For context, driver SS is about 94-95, I do tend to like shafts with stiffer handles, and I absolutely love the IZ 85 S in my Ping hybrids. Those IZ hybrid shafts felt much more linear and stout to me during a round last week compared to the GC 6 SR. 

[mattman]

13 minutes ago, BCA said:

I saw all the stuff about the GC playing stiffer to flex, as mentioned above, and ordered it in 6 SR rather than my normal S. I also noticed that the stiffness “rating” (EI area) on golfshaftreviews was 16 for the 6 SR and that aligned with other driver shafts I’ve played well with (all stiff). The GC 6 S has an EI area of 17, so that would seem to indicate that it’s a bit stiff to flex. Anyway, the SR felt great but much more loose than expected. I could have played it but have Will building me a 6 S instead. We’ll see how that goes…I have high hopes. YMMV but for me, it seems like my normal S flex would have been the way to go. 
 

For context, driver SS is about 94-95, I do tend to like shafts with stiffer handles, and I absolutely love the IZ 85 S in my Ping hybrids. Those IZ hybrid shafts felt much more linear and stout to me during a round last week compared to the GC 6 SR. 

Agree with this sentiment as I didn't actually feel like the GC 6 X was any stiffer than say an HD 6 X. I played a VF 7 X for a bit this year and that seemed at least as stiff as the GC 6 X. Also, hit it side by side a DI 6 X, did feel stiffer than the DI but not extremely so. Never did get along with a DI in the driver anyway.

 

[third-times-a-charm]

13 hours ago, BCA said:

I saw all the stuff about the GC playing stiffer to flex, as mentioned above, and ordered it in 6 SR rather than my normal S. I also noticed that the stiffness “rating” (EI area) on golfshaftreviews was 16 for the 6 SR and that aligned with other driver shafts I’ve played well with (all stiff). The GC 6 S has an EI area of 17, so that would seem to indicate that it’s a bit stiff to flex. Anyway, the SR felt great but much more loose than expected. I could have played it but have Will building me a 6 S instead. We’ll see how that goes…I have high hopes. YMMV but for me, it seems like my normal S flex would have been the way to go. 
 

For context, driver SS is about 94-95, I do tend to like shafts with stiffer handles, and I absolutely love the IZ 85 S in my Ping hybrids. Those IZ hybrid shafts felt much more linear and stout to me during a round last week compared to the GC 6 SR. 

Send me a PM if you end up offloading the 6SR

[BCA]

30 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Send me a PM if you end up offloading the 6SR

PM'd

[CTgamer]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:25 PM, mattman said:

Hit a GC on a LM today and it really reminded me of the HD as far as feel goes. A tighter feeling shaft compared to the kickier DI... a couple interesting things to note from golfshaftreviews stats:

- the GC now holds the crown as most counterbalanced tour AD shaft (previously the VR)

- by their measurements, it looks to be about a full flex stiffer than any previous Tour AD, including last year's VF (the VF 6 X for example has roughly the same EI area and shaft deflection amount as a GC 6 S).

I was considering going 6 stiff in the GC when I've always played X with their stuff. But the 6 X gave me enough pop and felt good really good. I'd probably lean that way. In the linked Cool Clubs video they claim it's flex-for-flex about 15 CPMs stiffer than other GD shafts.

- the EI profile looks very similar to the Diamana BB. Maybe a slightly firmer mid and smaller hinge in the transition from the mid-section to the tip.

 

 

edit: aforementioned video

 

I find Russ’ info incredibly valuable, but I think EI area on butt stiff shafts can be a bit misleading. As an example, the first 8” of butt section on the 6SR is about equivalent to the same 8” on a ventus black 6x, but I’d guess (having not hit the GC) that most players would say the ventus is significantly stiffer.
 

Something similar often happens on butt stiff “blue” profiles, generally, where - flex for flex - the EI area is higher than equivalent “white” profiles. But again, most would say the white profiles play and feel stiffer. Anecdotally, I’d say “blue” profiles need to be 0.3-0.5 stiffer in Russ’ EI area measurement than their soft-handled “white” counterparts to play similar (but will still feel more active even with the slightly higher stiffness). 
 

This also brings up another point that many players don’t register absolute stiffness so much as they feel the relative change in stiffness down the shaft. In that respect, I find Russ’ EI signature (ie the first derivative) to be a much more accurate representation of how a shaft *feels* - however, the EI signature doesn’t necessarily show launch propensity or total stiffness, which is where the tip-to-butt ratio and EI area come in. 

As a final fun fact, the EI signature of the Ventus Black TR (at least in 6x) is actually more similar than different to the AD DI - a smooth and accelerating loss of stiffness into a very stable tip - which likely explains why many feel the TR Black to be so much smoother than other low/low shafts
 

[mattman]

18 minutes ago, CTgamer said:

I find Russ’ info incredibly valuable, but I think EI area on butt stiff shafts can be a bit misleading. As an example, the first 8” of butt section on the 6SR is about equivalent to the same 8” on a ventus black 6x, but I’d guess (having not hit the GC) that most players would say the ventus is significantly stiffer.
 

Something similar often happens on butt stiff “blue” profiles, generally, where - flex for flex - the EI area is higher than equivalent “white” profiles. But again, most would say the white profiles play and feel stiffer. Anecdotally, I’d say “blue” profiles need to be 0.3-0.5 stiffer in Russ’ EI area measurement than their soft-handled “white” counterparts to play similar (but will still feel more active even with the slightly higher stiffness). 
 

This also brings up another point that many players don’t register absolute stiffness so much as they feel the relative change in stiffness down the shaft. In that respect, I find Russ’ EI signature (ie the first derivative) to be a much more accurate representation of how a shaft *feels* - however, the EI signature doesn’t necessarily show launch propensity or total stiffness, which is where the tip-to-butt ratio and EI area come in. 

As a final fun fact, the EI signature of the Ventus Black TR (at least in 6x) is actually more similar than different to the AD DI - a smooth and accelerating loss of stiffness into a very stable tip - which likely explains why many feel the TR Black to be so much smoother than other low/low shafts
 

Really good stuff, thanks for posting. I remember first looking at Russ' site and being surprised at how relatively soft the Ventus Black 6 X was. Amazing what geometry and profile design means relative to CPM... great point about players feeling change in stiffness throughout the shaft, absolutely why blues feel better. 
What you wrote also backs up what I felt hitting the GC - didn't feel or seem to play any stiffer than comparable shafts I've tried. Currently have a Diamana DF 60 TX which seems stiffer than GC 6 X as an aside for anyone looking for reference.

[dwboston]

I was struggling with my 7w earlier this year.  It was launching too low and I just couldn't get comfortable with either the stock shaft or the Diamana Ilima that I had. I had an AD DI 7S in my old 4w, so I had it butt trimmed to 7w length and popped it in. The 7w is like a completely different club now - it launches like a 7w should and feels great. 

 

I'd forgotten how much I liked the AD DI and being able to feel the shaft loading and unloading. I still had a 6S around so I put that back in the driver and picked up a gently used 7S for the 4w.  I was able to play one round with them before the course closed for the winter, and remembered what I liked so much about the shaft and why I played it for years. I was using an Oban Devotion 6S in the driver and an AD BB in the 4w. Both were fine but the DI just feels a little smoother and launches a bit higher, while still feeling stable. Going to go into next season with this setup.

[CTgamer]

4 hours ago, mattman said:

Really good stuff, thanks for posting. I remember first looking at Russ' site and being surprised at how relatively soft the Ventus Black 6 X was. Amazing what geometry and profile design means relative to CPM... great point about players feeling change in stiffness throughout the shaft, absolutely why blues feel better. 
What you wrote also backs up what I felt hitting the GC - didn't feel or seem to play any stiffer than comparable shafts I've tried. Currently have a Diamana DF 60 TX which seems stiffer than GC 6 X as an aside for anyone looking for reference.

Glad it resonated! To your point, this is also part of the “Graphite Design plays soft to flex” tribal wisdom…almost all Tour AD shafts are a variation on a soft mid theme. That said, their EI areas according to Russ seem to be about in line, or maybe even a little softer, flex for flex than most other shafts. In contrast, MCA and Fuji “blue” profiles all tend to have slightly higher EI areas. For some, that’s an integral part of GD’s signature feel, and for others they feel the shaft get squirrelly and need to go up in weight/flex. Sounds like GC may be one of the few that doesn’t play soft to flex…
 

And definitely fun to check the EI signatures - there are some real surprising ones given how shafts are described 😂

 

Side note because we’re in the GD thread - the AD VF and Diamana GT share almost identical EI signatures. VF has a skosh more stiffness bump in the high tip, but otherwise makes a lot of sense that JT was bouncing around Diamana ZF (prior gen GT) and AD VF 

[Morry]

3 hours ago, dwboston said:

I was struggling with my 7w earlier this year.  It was launching too low and I just couldn't get comfortable with either the stock shaft or the Diamana Ilima that I had. I had an AD DI 7S in my old 4w, so I had it butt trimmed to 7w length and popped it in. The 7w is like a completely different club now - it launches like a 7w should and feels great. 

 

I'd forgotten how much I liked the AD DI and being able to feel the shaft loading and unloading. I still had a 6S around so I put that back in the driver and picked up a gently used 7S for the 4w.  I was able to play one round with them before the course closed for the winter, and remembered what I liked so much about the shaft and why I played it for years. I was using an Oban Devotion 6S in the driver and an AD BB in the 4w. Both were fine but the DI just feels a little smoother and launches a bit higher, while still feeling stable. Going to go into next season with this setup.

Love live the AD-DI

 

unicorn 

 

 

[DKgolfAZ]

Def not caught up at all in this thread but I just wanted to pop in and say…

 

the VF shaft line is absolutely incredible and I’m so glad I got fit into it. Definitely helped my game a ton. 

[phizzy30]

21 hours ago, CTgamer said:

Glad it resonated! To your point, this is also part of the “Graphite Design plays soft to flex” tribal wisdom…almost all Tour AD shafts are a variation on a soft mid theme. That said, their EI areas according to Russ seem to be about in line, or maybe even a little softer, flex for flex than most other shafts. In contrast, MCA and Fuji “blue” profiles all tend to have slightly higher EI areas. For some, that’s an integral part of GD’s signature feel, and for others they feel the shaft get squirrelly and need to go up in weight/flex. Sounds like GC may be one of the few that doesn’t play soft to flex…
 

And definitely fun to check the EI signatures - there are some real surprising ones given how shafts are described 😂

 

Side note because we’re in the GD thread - the AD VF and Diamana GT share almost identical EI signatures. VF has a skosh more stiffness bump in the high tip, but otherwise makes a lot of sense that JT was bouncing around Diamana ZF (prior gen GT) and AD VF 

I've seen the Russ's chart as well on the GT vs VF comparison.  On paper they're similar, however, that's where the similarities end.  I have the VF in driver and GT in 3 metal.  If the GT and VF were essentially the same with that small tweak in the tip, then the GT should in theory work for me in driver as well, however, it didn't.  I believe it's a feel and stability factor.  VF is more anti-left and doesn't quite kick/bend the same as the GT.  I also swing driver more aggressively than 3 metal so that may have to do with why the GT doesn't work in driver but wonderfully so in 3 metal.  

[noodle3872]

Russ’ EI Rating should not be confused with how a shaft will feel during a swing. All EI Rating represents is a consistent way of rating flex of the shaft within his measurement system. Russ’ technical articles explain this pretty well.