A rules question:

[Moonlightgrm]

I am not confident that we ruled correctly on this matter. With the new (2019) rules regarding penalty areas, here’s what transpired. I am playing a match and we’ve reached the par 3 third hole at our club. This hole is modeled after the 12th hole at Augusta National. The temperature is 90* F and the superintendent has just syringed this green. I hit an 8-iron and flush it. My ball hits the soft green creating a deep pitch mark, spins back, reaches the false front and trickles into the water. My opponent and I discussed where I should drop. We agreed on where my ball crossed the hazard line and he allowed me to drop twice, then hand place my ball on the edge of the line, no nearer the hole. I chipped up to a tap-in bogey. He won the hole with a par, so our ruling didn’t impact the match. Did we rule correctly or should I have dropped behind the hazard leaving me a ~40-yard pitch shot? 

[weavej1]

[TwistedSister]

That's how I would have done it for a red hazard except you had the option to drop within two clubs from where it crossed the line no closer to the hole.  As long as the ball stayed in the drop zone then no need to place it. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by dhacker56

[caniac6]

2 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

I am not confident that we ruled correctly on this matter. With the new (2019) rules regarding penalty areas, here’s what transpired. I am playing a match and we’ve reached the par 3 third hole at our club. This hole is modeled after the 12th hole at Augusta National. The temperature is 90* F and the superintendent has just syringed this green. I hit an 8-iron and flush it. My ball hits the soft green creating a deep pitch mark, spins back, reaches the false front and trickles into the water. My opponent and I discussed where I should drop. We agreed on where my ball crossed the hazard line and he allowed me to drop twice, then hand place my ball on the edge of the line, no nearer the hole. I chipped up to a tap-in bogey. He won the hole with a par, so our ruling didn’t impact the match. Did we rule correctly or should I have dropped behind the hazard leaving me a ~40-yard pitch shot? 

Wouldn’t it depend on it being a red line or yellow line?

[Socrates]

If it's modeled after the 12th at Augusta, then it is a yellow line and you dropped from a wrong spot.  With a yellow line, the drop on the green side does not exist.  The only other option is if there is a drop zone (and it usually isn't on the green side).  Otherwise, you are going to the other side of the water with a couple of options.

[TwistedSister]

25 minutes ago, Socrates said:

If it's modeled after the 12th at Augusta, then it is a yellow line and you dropped from a wrong spot.  With a yellow line, the drop on the green side does not exist.  The only other option is if there is a drop zone (and it usually isn't on the green side).  Otherwise, you are going to the other side of the water with a couple of options.

I thought the diagram showing the red lines was posted by the OP my oops.  Of course you are correct.

[Moonlightgrm]

3 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Wouldn’t it depend on it being a red line or yellow line?

It would, however since our club is no longer private (2013) there are no stakes, no white lines painted for ground under repair, and no out of bounds stakes. Our club is run on the cheap! When we were private, the stakes were red around this water hazard, so that’s what we went with. We asked our pro, after the round, and he said “whatever you two decided is fine”. So, we still do not have a definitive answer for proper protocol moving forward. However, the response from weavej1 is appreciated. We played it correctly, if it’s red staked and incorrectly if it’s yellow staked. We’ve both been members for 20+ years so we went with what we remembered. Red lines/stakes at just below the start of the apron to the green on the severe slope. I am moving to the next round of this intra-club tournament and I wanted a definitive answer. We need the tournament committee to make a declaration on all penalty areas.

[TwistedSister]

27 minutes ago, Moonlightgrm said:

It would, however since our club is no longer private (2013) there are no stakes, no white lines painted for ground under repair, and no out of bounds stakes. Our club is run on the cheap! When we were private, the stakes were red around this water hazard, so that’s what we went with. We asked our pro, after the round, and he said “whatever you two decided is fine”. So, we still do not have a definitive answer for proper protocol moving forward. However, the response from weavej1 is appreciated. We played it correctly, if it’s red staked and incorrectly if it’s yellow staked. We’ve both been members for 20+ years so we went with what we remembered. Red lines/stakes at just below the start of the apron to the green on the severe slope. I am moving to the next round of this intra-club tournament and I wanted a definitive answer. We need the tournament committee to make a declaration on all penalty areas.

Actually you did not have to drop where it crossed.  You have two club lengths no closer to the hole. Then drop.

[Socrates]

6 minutes ago, dhacker56 said:

Actually you did not have to drop where it crossed.  You have two club lengths no closer to the hole. Then drop.

It would be best if the competition committee made a decision so that it isn't left to the players to make up Rulings.

 

If it were to be marked correctly, it would be a yellow line if it was like #12 at Augusta.  The option (the drop on the green side) would not exist in that case. 

 

HOWEVER.....See below for an alternate ending

 

From Definitions of Penalty Area:

 

There are two different types of penalty areas, distinguished by the colour used to mark them:

• Yellow penalty areas (marked with yellow lines or yellow stakes) give the player two relief options (Rules 17.1d(1) and (2)).

• Red penalty areas (marked with red lines or red stakes) give the player an extra lateral relief option (Rule 17.1d(3)), in addition to the two relief options available for yellow penalty areas.

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

[TwistedSister]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

It would be best if the competition committee made a decision so that it isn't left to the players to make up Rulings.

 

If it were to be marked correctly, it would be a yellow line if it was like #12 at Augusta.  The option (the drop on the green side) would not exist in that case. 

 

HOWEVER.....See below for an alternate ending

 

From Definitions oExactly what I said.f Penalty Area:

 

There are two different types of penalty areas, distinguished by the colour used to mark them:

• Yellow penalty areas (marked with yellow lines or yellow stakes) give the player two relief options (Rules 17.1d(1) and (2)).

• Red penalty areas (marked with red lines or red stakes) give the player an extra lateral relief option (Rule 17.1d(3)), in addition to the two relief options available for yellow penalty areas.

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

Exactly what I said.  I was referring to the line where it last crossed.  The OP  said they dropped it TWICE where  the ball crossed and then placed it.  I assume they placed it because is rolled back into the hazard.  That is his right but he also could have moved up to two lengths before dropping.

[antip]

If it was red penalty area, that may have been a legal drop/place process but there is not enough information to be definitive. If it was yellow penalty area, it definitely was not legal. But this was a match and you and your opponent agreed to a rules process you were unsure of so even if wrong it counts - unless you were both aware that it was wrong under the rules - which does not seem to be the case. You need to swat up on Rule 17 to avoid future problems.

[Imp]

On 7/17/2022 at 6:17 PM, Socrates said:

It would be best if the competition committee made a decision so that it isn't left to the players to make up Rulings.

 

If it were to be marked correctly, it would be a yellow line if it was like #12 at Augusta.  The option (the drop on the green side) would not exist in that case. 

 

HOWEVER.....See below for an alternate ending

 

From Definitions of Penalty Area:

 

There are two different types of penalty areas, distinguished by the colour used to mark them:

• Yellow penalty areas (marked with yellow lines or yellow stakes) give the player two relief options (Rules 17.1d(1) and (2)).

• Red penalty areas (marked with red lines or red stakes) give the player an extra lateral relief option (Rule 17.1d(3)), in addition to the two relief options available for yellow penalty areas.

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

Question: Playing a course I'm unfamiliar with, and there are ZERO stakes out for any marking of any PAs, can the players decide "that looks like a PA, so take a lateral where it went in"? Is it that simple?

[Socrates]

4 minutes ago, Imp said:

Question: Playing a course I'm unfamiliar with, and there are ZERO stakes out for any marking of any PAs, can the players decide "that looks like a PA, so take a lateral where it went in"? Is it that simple?

That is where it can become sketchy.  Around here there are many courses where the markings are few and far between.  We are talking about rural courses where it's a family operation and the markings can be illogical many times.  Not to say that I am making up the rules when I'm out there, but when it's a clear PA (creek, river, drainage ditch or pond) and they aren't marked, I will treat them as what they should have been.  Most areas are going to be Red, but a pond in front of a green will normally be Yellow.   It's not often that one gets in one area, but being reasonable is being prudent when I play them.

 

Courses that have Rule committees or a handicapping system, should be marked or at least have something on the card giving direction.  And that is usually the case, although even then, I see courses marked where it's easy to see that they didn't know what they were doing (wrong color, no drop area, poor placement of lines).

 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

but when it's a clear PA (creek, river, drainage ditch or pond) and they aren't marked, I will treat them as what they should have been.

 

Almost, however the Definition of Penalty Area goes on to say:

 

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

[Socrates]

4 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Almost, however the Definition of Penalty Area goes on to say:

 

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

As I said, a few courses I play have no committee and no markings.  If it's clearly a Red, I will treat it as a Red PA, but if it's clear that it should be a Yellow PA, I'm not going to take a drop like it's a Red PA.  Same with GUR.  If they are digging a hole or a trench or re-sodded an area, just because someone hasn't splashed some white paint around it doesn't mean it isn't GUR.  I just try to be sensible and fair to the Rules in the absence of a committee or a Ruling Body.  If it's a private course or an upscale public course, I expect a tall forehead to be out there marking stuff, but that often isn't the case where I go.  Be fair to the Rules and play the ball as you find it as much as possible.

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, Socrates said:

As I said, a few courses I play have no committee and no markings.  If it's clearly a Red, I will treat it as a Red PA, but if it's clear that it should be a Yellow PA, I'm not going to take a drop like it's a Red PA.  Same with GUR.  If they are digging a hole or a trench or re-sodded an area, just because someone hasn't splashed some white paint around it doesn't mean it isn't GUR.  I just try to be sensible and fair to the Rules in the absence of a committee or a Ruling Body.  If it's a private course or an upscale public course, I expect a tall forehead to be out there marking stuff, but that often isn't the case where I go.  Be fair to the Rules and play the ball as you find it as much as possible.

 

It was refreshing to read that after all the talk that a group may form their own committee and decide on Local Rules, GURs, etc.

[larrybud]

15 minutes ago, Socrates said:

As I said, a few courses I play have no committee and no markings.  If it's clearly a Red, I will treat it as a Red PA, but if it's clear that it should be a Yellow PA, I'm not going to take a drop like it's a Red PA.  Same with GUR.  If they are digging a hole or a trench or re-sodded an area, just because someone hasn't splashed some white paint around it doesn't mean it isn't GUR.  I just try to be sensible and fair to the Rules in the absence of a committee or a Ruling Body.  If it's a private course or an upscale public course, I expect a tall forehead to be out there marking stuff, but that often isn't the case where I go.  Be fair to the Rules and play the ball as you find it as much as possible.

 

+1

My wednesday league course had a pre-qualifier for the Rocket Mortgage a week from yesterday. They marked the hell out of the course. Crappy spots in the FW circled GUR that we would never see in normal circumstances, and in fact, give it another couple of days, the paint will be completely gone in those spots. We could still make it out a bit last night.

 

 

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

As I said, a few courses I play have no committee and no markings.  If it's clearly a Red, I will treat it as a Red PA, but if it's clear that it should be a Yellow PA, I'm not going to take a drop like it's a Red PA.  Same with GUR.  If they are digging a hole or a trench or re-sodded an area, just because someone hasn't splashed some white paint around it doesn't mean it isn't GUR.  I just try to be sensible and fair to the Rules in the absence of a committee or a Ruling Body.  If it's a private course or an upscale public course, I expect a tall forehead to be out there marking stuff, but that often isn't the case where I go.  Be fair to the Rules and play the ball as you find it as much as possible.

 

It's your hair shirt to wear as you wish. The Rules, however, direct the player to treat unmarked penalty areas as red penalty areas.

[Socrates]

Right at the end of the Rules, one finds this below.   I really am in favour of the last line.

 

 

20.3 Situations Not Covered by the Rules

Any situation not covered by the Rules should be decided by the Committee:

• Considering all the circumstances, and

• Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules.

[sui generis]

16 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Right at the end of the Rules, one finds this below.   I really am in favour of the last line.

 

 

20.3 Situations Not Covered by the Rules

Any situation not covered by the Rules should be decided by the Committee:

• Considering all the circumstances, and

• Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules.

 

20.3 tells us what to do if a situation is not covered by the Rules. (It doesn't tell us what to do if we don't like the Rule.)

 

The Definitions, also a part of the Rules, tell us that an unmarked penalty area is to be treated as a red penalty are.

 

As you know, the player has three relief options for a ball in a red penalty area. If the player (that might be you but not your opponent in match play or another player in stroke play) doesn't wish to use option c, lateral relief, nobody's stopping them. R20.3 doesn't apply here.

[Socrates]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

20.3 tells us what to do if a situation is not covered by the Rules. (It doesn't tell us what to do if we don't like the Rule.)

 

The Definitions, also a part of the Rules, tell us that an unmarked penalty area is to be treated as a red penalty are.

 

As you know, the player has three relief options for a ball in a red penalty area. If the player (that might be you but not your opponent in match play or another player in stroke play) doesn't wish to use option c, lateral relief, nobody's stopping them. R20.3 doesn't apply here.

The line in Rule 20.3 is more of a philosophy that I like to think the Rules are built on.  

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, Socrates said:

The line in Rule 20.3 is more of a philosophy that I like to think the Rules are built on.  

 

They are.