Why do lie boards lie???

[denkea]

That's pretty much the question.  Why do lie boards lie?  

 

That is the notion repeated so many times on this board.  Now I'm curious as to the reasons why a lie board lies.  

 

What are the specifics as to what happens to the club head when using a lie board.

 

 

[Bye]

It's not the most pleasant experience hitting off one. There is probably a subconscious reaction to hitting off one. 

 

I did my first dynamic lie test last week. Line of chalk on the ball. 1 shot with my old clubs, 1 with the ones I was testing. Job done. 

[Ri_Redneck]

Impact with the ball forces the toe of the club down and you get an impact mark far closer to the toe than you would without a ball. This indicates a far more upright lie than you actually need. Hence the Lie Board Lie!! In the dark ages when it was the thing to use, I never let the golfer hit balls off it. Only dry swings with light contact. Still not exact, but better than with a ball.

 

BT

[denkea]

18 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Impact with the ball forces the toe of the club down and you get an impact mark far closer to the toe than you would without a ball. This indicates a far more upright lie than you actually need. Hence the Lie Board Lie!! In the dark ages when it was the thing to use, I never let the golfer hit balls off it. Only dry swings with light contact. Still not exact, but better than with a ball.

 

BT

I understand the toe down effect but that is minimized if hit on the sweet spot as opposed to the toe.  

But even so if one where to use a whiffle or foam golf ball off a lie board then this wouldn't be a problem would it?  

[Stuart_G]

22 minutes ago, denkea said:

I understand the toe down effect but that is minimized if hit on the sweet spot as opposed to the toe.  

 

No, not at all.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/downdeflect.php

 

22 minutes ago, denkea said:

But even so if one where to use a whiffle or foam golf ball off a lie board then this wouldn't be a problem would it?  

 

That's only one aspect of the inaccuracies that can occur because the mark is being generated after impact, not right at impact.  e.g.  high rate of face closure can also result in the mark being more toe side.  And that's just one example.

 

Plus it's so easy to do an accurate test, why would one want to even try to get the lie board to work?

 

[Ri_Redneck]

Exactly! The best way to check your lie is with a sharpie as Stuart and many others have mentioned before. Make a straight line on the ball, place it where the line is vertical and facing the club, hit it and check the face of the club. If the line is not straight up & down, adjust the club so that it is.

 

BT

[mcounci2]

The lie board lies because it’s irrelevant. Lie angle should be analyzed as correct or not based on ball flight, not on hitting a plastic sheet

[Howard_Jones]

On 7/20/2022 at 4:20 PM, mcounci2 said:

The lie board lies because it’s irrelevant. Lie angle should be analyzed as correct or not based on ball flight, not on hitting a plastic sheet

Thats another old myth (ballflight dont lie), but it does....

Scenario
A Face angle 1 closed to path, cause a tilt on the balls spin axis of 3.0*
So does a lie angle thats 1.0* upright at impact

Now tell me, if the ball flight is a draw, what caused it?
Was it a face angle closed to path, or a lie angle thats was upright at impact?

Without a launch monitor who can tell us "face to path", and tilt on the balls spin axis, we are NOT able to isolate what came from lie angles, so we cant judge lie angles by ball flight, its not possible without this LM datas.

Back to topic, why do lie boards lie? ...its because sole impact marks moves with path and face angle, and we dont have any idea about how face angle or path was at impact, so we are not able to judge if sole marks looks like they should or not.

If it turns out that lie angles IS wrong, we have no clue about how much to adjust to get the right, since 8 out of 9 scenarios shall NOT have a sole impact on the very center to be correct.

We simply have to chance to make it right, now include the fact that the lie board is AFTER impact on the timeline, and we wants to know head position right before, or "the moment of impact". thats NOT what we get when we use a lie board, we get a head where toe side has dropped due to impact with the ball. How much it dropped? we have no clue about that either, so we are messing with something in the dark here.

The original lie board/solemark chart has 27 different sole impact positions, and all this 9 shows CORRECT lie angles, but since most users of lie boards incorrectly think that sole marks shall be on the center of the sole, only 1 of 9 scenarios will be judged correct, 8 out of 9 will be judged wrong.
Users simply dont know what this marks tells, and how they move depending on club delivery, and thats why the method in sum is useless. It will mislead the user way more often than not.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Howard_Jones