LIV Discussion related to World Politics (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[Shortgamemagic]

1 hour ago, dhacker56 said:

Ok here goes.  I'll probably get banned again but I find this comment rather disingenuous.  After all, all we have to do to find out the answer is look at the NBA.  As much in bed with China as LIV is with SA  and China's Human rights record is definitely no better than SA's.  And the big name players are hesitant to ever call out China. So if this is too political please don't ban me just don't post it up.  I've been trying to keep "my nose clean".

Yup still don’t get it 

[TwistedSister]

56 minutes ago, Shortgamemagic said:

Yup still don’t get it 

Don't get what?

[lowheel]

On 7/28/2022 at 6:25 PM, Dicka said:

 

This argument is so tiring...and if you don't understand now, not quite sure you ever will. The day China COMPLETELY OWNS a world golf tour and players basically sign their lives away from the world of professional golf and become paid employees doing the nation's PR work, is the day I say that's a good point.

 

The fact TFG needs to defend Saudi involvement in LIV when questioned at the course today...coming out with one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard..."nobody's gotten to the bottom of 9/11 unfortunately"...seriously? From a former POTUS, one of the most disgraceful things I've ever heard.

They already do... look it up. they own all their athletes... I wont even address the remainder of your reply, its clickbait

 

 

[lowheel]

9 hours ago, Murphy76 said:

 

To veer *slightly* off-topic:  

 

The thing that sticks in my craw is how so many players/pundits say that they are trying to "Grow the Game".   Grow the game??? 

 

What does this even mean?  Are millions of 12-year-old kids going to suddenly start playing because some d-bag plays on another tour?  Are golf courses going to be suddenly built in the inner cities?  Will prices for equipment/tee-times suddenly drop?  

 

I call complete bull on the whole idea.  As if this is some noble pursuit.....

 

This comes down to two things:  Money and influence.  

 

To pretend it is anything else is insulting and stupid.  

 

 

I mean come on...

[lowheel]

14 hours ago, idrive said:

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

It's not always easy to separate these things out. 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't like mine, they are most certainly entitled to ignore it, or better yet, block me.

Thats the crux of the problem here. You're associating 9/11 to this new golf league... Not everyone sees it that way. Its not an either or scenario. MBS was 15 when 9/11 happened and now hes in charge. Our relations with that country are normalized and we are allies with them. Time will melt away all these feelings first takes as they did with japan, germany, russia etc.. Our Potus was just over there begging him to increase oil production and fist bumping him. We've sold billions in weaponry to them in the last decade alone. I got home today and watched both the PGA tour and LIV golf streams and both were great. The world is big enough for both. Youre entitled to your opinion of course

[theodoreb]

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/golf-war-pga-tolerate-competition-liv.amp

[avrag]

Regarding this topic, I encourage everyone to go to Peter Santenello's Youtube channel and watch his videos about his experience in Saudi Arabia.
For me, they were eye-opening and scary at the same time.
Eye-opening because of the hopes of so many young people (many of them having returned there from the US or the UK), that things are changing for the better.
Scary, because with the way they expand their cities and build them only with cars in mind, we are doomed on a global scale.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Well, Liv is trending on social media. Not for good reasons. It’s for the fact that players on the first hole tee off next to a newly filled grave with Donald Trump’s ex-wife Ivana buried in it.

 

[ChipStrokes]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:41 AM, idrive said:

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

speaking as someone who was actually in new york city on 9/11, and who lost close family friends that day, i can tell you that your line of thinking is the same one that STILL has people clutching their purses when they see muslims boarding their flight. 

 

and the same one that has muslim people pulled off of planes at an alarming rate, even today. 

 

9/11 was twenty one years ago.  the tragedy is about to be old enough to drink. it was one of the worst days of my life but i’ve lived longer post-9/11 than i did pre-9/11 and you can gain a ton of perspective in over two decades, if you choose to. 

 

if your eyes are closed to the changes that have happened in SA since 9/11, then that’s a shame.  do i want to take my family there next spring break? no, not at all. but it’s definitely not the same country it was 20, or 10, or even 5 years ago. 

 

i’ll never, for a second, forget 9/11 and what happened that day. but it’s when i learned to look further into things. and when i found out nothing is as simple as black and white, good and bad. 

 

we’ve been bedfellows with saudi arabia for a very long time, swapping weapons and oil more often than people on this site swap drivers and putters. our CIA financed and armed a young saudi citizen named osama bin laden. 

 

when it comes to my moral outrage meter, LIV doesn’t even come close to budging the needle. there is so much going on in the world and in our own country that is so much worse than a saudi funded golf league.  and before anyone says it…that’s not whataboutism. i’m not saying “hey look at this thing, it’s worse!”. i’m simply saying when it comes to my personal give a sh*t meter, this doesn’t come close. i can understand that it does for some other people, though, and that’s fine. 

[thorsness]

5 hours ago, theodoreb said:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/golf-war-pga-tolerate-competition-liv.amp

 

No horse in this race but FOX News falling on the side of pro-LIV and the above poster sharing a FOX opinion piece as if it carries any weight is the kind of entertainment I'm here for...

[idrive]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

speaking as someone who was actually in new york city on 9/11, and who lost close family friends that day, i can tell you that your line of thinking is the same one that STILL has people clutching their purses when they see muslims boarding their flight. 

 

and the same one that has muslim people pulled off of planes at an alarming rate, even today. 

 

9/11 was twenty one years ago.  the tragedy is about to be old enough to drink. it was one of the worst days of my life but i’ve lived longer post-9/11 than i did pre-9/11 and you can gain a ton of perspective in over two decades, if you choose to. 

 

if your eyes are closed to the changes that have happened in SA since 9/11, then that’s a shame.  do i want to take my family there next spring break? no, not at all. but it’s definitely not the same country it was 20, or 10, or even 5 years ago. 

 

i’ll never, for a second, forget 9/11 and what happened that day. but it’s when i learned to look further into things. and when i found out nothing is as simple as black and white, good and bad. 

 

we’ve been bedfellows with saudi arabia for a very long time, swapping weapons and oil more often than people on this site swap drivers and putters. our CIA financed and armed a young saudi citizen named osama bin laden. 

 

when it comes to my moral outrage meter, LIV doesn’t even come close to budging the needle. there is so much going on in the world and in our own country that is so much worse than a saudi funded golf league.  and before anyone says it…that’s not whataboutism. i’m not saying “hey look at this thing, it’s worse!”. i’m simply saying when it comes to my personal give a sh*t meter, this doesn’t come close. i can understand that it does for some other people, though, and that’s fine. 

 

This is your opinion, feelings. Thanks for sharing them.

 

As I was quoted, I assume that this was directed at me.

 

If you're trying to describe me, interpret me, you couldn't be further off. 

 

Heck of an effort though.

 

 

[ChipStrokes]

1 hour ago, idrive said:

 

This is your opinion, feelings. Thanks for sharing them.

 

As I was quoted, I assume that this was directed at me.

 

If you're trying to describe me, interpret me, you couldn't be further off. 

 

Heck of an effort though.

 

 

you closed by saying ask any american. 

 

as an american, and one closer to ground zero than most, i responded. 

 

and mixed in with my opinions on the matter were facts about the issue. 

 

facts that are supported and propped up by people with the mindset you exhibited in your last post. 

 

this isn’t that hard. 

[idrive]

1 hour ago, ChipStrokes said:

you closed by saying ask any american. 

 

as an american, and one closer to ground zero than most, i responded. 

 

and mixed in with my opinions on the matter were facts about the issue. 

 

facts that are supported and propped up by people with the mindset you exhibited in your last post. 

 

this isn’t that hard. 

 

Apparently it's hard for you. 

 

I wrote that in response to someone that is not an American. I simply tried to explain why for some Americans, it is a big deal.  Had nothing to do with how I feel or act.

 

Once again, heck of an effort though.

[Mizunoid]

The top and bottom of this is nobody really cares about Saudi and everything going on there. Not really. They're (The PGA and their media) using it as a stick to beat the tour with because they're scared their monopoly and thus bottom line is being threatened.

 

It's no different to when the football clubs tried to create the super league, all of a sudden everyone swarmed round backing UEFA - defending monolithic, monopolising organisations who own the game as soon as they're threatened by a newcomer is weird in my opinion. 

 

The BDO did it with darts when the PDC came along. Tried every trick in the book to call them shysters, claimed they were simply throwing money at people, etc. It was because their monopoly was threatened not because they cared about darts.

 

Is that what we've come to? You can only play under the PGA and its respective partners or you're scum? You can only play football under UEFA or you're scum? Anyone with new ideas, a new format, or a new direction is 'harming' the game? No, they're harming the status quo which is what the status quo doesn't like because it threatens the bottom line on their balance sheet. I see it as no different from a Tory claiming a Labour government would be bad because it would be worse for Average Joe, pretending they actually care about Average Joe and not their own interests. It really is that simple.

[oikos1]

20 minutes ago, munichop said:

Be careful. Look what happened to Wentworth.  If the Saudis bought a guys farm for parking at Pumpkin ridge they could probably buy any decent club they want if the circumstance presents itself. Remember when the Japanese bought Pebble Beach?

Yep.  Kind of makes the whole golf thing seem a bit trite.  Welcome to the global economy and world markets.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/15/saudi-arabia-buying-up-farmland-in-us-southwest.html

[rawdog]

3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

I thought it was unnecessary for the crowd to be chanting 'lets go brandon'. Regardless of your political leaning it was cringy af.

 

Gotta keep it classy, right? They always have to be "owning" someone.

[dalehead]

3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

I thought it was unnecessary for the crowd to be chanting 'lets go brandon'. Regardless of your political leaning it was cringy af.

Ahh, you’re missing the concept of “golf, but louder.”

 

 

[Dicka]

So this is appropriate for a professional golf tournament is it? And at the risk of getting moderated, I would be just as disgusted by any other political figure encouraging this type of garbage.

 

 

[mjtoal]

23 hours ago, Mizunoid said:

The top and bottom of this is nobody really cares about Saudi and everything going on there. Not really. They're (The PGA and their media) using it as a stick to beat the tour with because they're scared their monopoly and thus bottom line is being threatened.

 

It's no different to when the football clubs tried to create the super league, all of a sudden everyone swarmed round backing UEFA - defending monolithic, monopolising organisations who own the game as soon as they're threatened by a newcomer is weird in my opinion. 

 

The BDO did it with darts when the PDC came along. Tried every trick in the book to call them shysters, claimed they were simply throwing money at people, etc. It was because their monopoly was threatened not because they cared about darts.

 

Is that what we've come to? You can only play under the PGA and its respective partners or you're scum? You can only play football under UEFA or you're scum? Anyone with new ideas, a new format, or a new direction is 'harming' the game? No, they're harming the status quo which is what the status quo doesn't like because it threatens the bottom line on their balance sheet. I see it as no different from a Tory claiming a Labour government would be bad because it would be worse for Average Joe, pretending they actually care about Average Joe and not their own interests. It really is that simple.

 

I think you are wrong that nobody cares. 

 

But the practical issue is that if DJ, BdC etc want to clear off to a big money set of exhibition matches with a bunch of past-it and never-have-beens, good luck to them.

 

They were clearly warned that this would endanger their PGA Tour membership, Ryder Cup eligibility and OWGR positions. If they accepted all that, no problem. 

 

But despite those warnings, they are now whining about playing where they want, bizarrely using the argument that they are independent contractors despite clearly being quasi-employees of LIV Golf. 

 

Players like Richard Bland and Jason Kokrak have made it fairly plain that they are going to fill their boots while they still can. That is fine, respect to them for their honesty. 

 

The interesting part is going to come, when or if a bunch of other players join, mostly middle ranking players, probably, and there is less room for some of the lesser figures who have been taking home $120k for finishing dead last. These guys will be kicked to the kerb and may have nowhere to go. 

 

LIV Golf is currently a bubble, and players are trying to pile in and get some of that action, but that bubble could burst. Trump's association isn't helping the image either. 

[Soloman1]

If someone is entrenched in the view that the government of Saudi Arabia was responsible for 9/11, you should probably skip reading this post.

 

I won’t write any long narratives, but instead write short points.

 

The first question is why would the Saudi government want to assist or be involved in attacking one of its biggest customers and military ally? What is to be gained? Nothing.

 

The US was importing 1.5 million barrels of oil per day from Saudi Arabia at the time. Today, the US is the worlds largest oil producer and exports 7.5 million barrels of oil per day and imports less than 6% of its oil from Saudi Arabia.

 

Oil is a fungible product and there are many types of oil products that come from many sources. If you’re old enough to remember the Saudi oil embargo of 1973, the reason was the US support of Israel in the mideast war. It was more of a political statement for other mideast countries that Saudi Arabia has to live near.

 

However, the Saudi’s secretly supported the US by supplying jet fuel to US aircraft carriers still engaged in the Vietnam war.

 

Osama bin Laden was an outcast from Saudi Arabia. He was an anti-Saudi terrorist. The US had military bases in Saudi Arabia. He was persona non grata in Saudi Arabia at the time and the US was his target because of the bases.

 

The FBI, CIA, NSA, etc., have never found evidence to indicate the Saudi government was involved in 9/11. The US went to great lengths in foreign renditions and actions outside US jurisdiction to find the perpetrators.

 

There may have been low level employees involved, but there remains no evidence of Saudi government involvement. Why would the government be involved? They had no reason to be. The FBI has stated that there simply isn’t evidence to support any charges.

 

Clickbait headlines try to say there is now finally some evidence, but deeper reading shows it’s people connecting dots of ghosts and hearsay.

 

Bloggers and individuals try to connect dots, but every network news, AP, UPI, every major newspaper report that after reading all documents, there remains no evidence of Saudi government involvement.

 

Every lawsuit by groups against the Saudi government have been dismissed as either frivolous or “conspiratorial fantasy.” These is no evidence and more importantly, no motive. What is the motive of lawyers recruiting people for these lawsuits?

 

Osama bin Laden was not the Saudi government.

 

Was the murder of Khashoggi wrong? Of course, but connecting 9/11 to LIV lacks evidence.

 

 

 

[hammergolf]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:27 AM, Mizunoid said:

The top and bottom of this is nobody really cares about Saudi and everything going on there. Not really. They're (The PGA and their media) using it as a stick to beat the tour with because they're scared their monopoly and thus bottom line is being threatened.

 

It's no different to when the football clubs tried to create the super league, all of a sudden everyone swarmed round backing UEFA - defending monolithic, monopolising organisations who own the game as soon as they're threatened by a newcomer is weird in my opinion. 

 

The BDO did it with darts when the PDC came along. Tried every trick in the book to call them shysters, claimed they were simply throwing money at people, etc. It was because their monopoly was threatened not because they cared about darts.

 

Is that what we've come to? You can only play under the PGA and its respective partners or you're scum? You can only play football under UEFA or you're scum? Anyone with new ideas, a new format, or a new direction is 'harming' the game? No, they're harming the status quo which is what the status quo doesn't like because it threatens the bottom line on their balance sheet. I see it as no different from a Tory claiming a Labour government would be bad because it would be worse for Average Joe, pretending they actually care about Average Joe and not their own interests. It really is that simple.

Exactly correct! The PGA Tour and it’s sponsors have BILLIONS of Saudi dollars running through them yet only LIV money is considered “blood money”. It’s utter hypocrisy on the part of the PGA and DP Tours. They are using the media machine to protect their monopoly and try to control the narrative. 

[Mizunoid]

2 hours ago, hammergolf said:

Exactly correct! The PGA Tour and it’s sponsors have BILLIONS of Saudi dollars running through them yet only LIV money is considered “blood money”. It’s utter hypocrisy on the part of the PGA and DP Tours. They are using the media machine to protect their monopoly and try to control the narrative. 

I agree. That said, i don't really care for LIV's setup.

 

I don't like the no cut golf, music, all that. It seems stale and almost like watching a practice or exhibition round. Very meh vibe from it myself.

 

The team names are so cringe i can't even say them.

[Pastit]

On 7/31/2022 at 10:27 AM, Mizunoid said:

The top and bottom of this is nobody really cares about Saudi and everything going on there. Not really. They're (The PGA and their media) using it as a stick to beat the tour with because they're scared their monopoly and thus bottom line is being threatened.

 

It's no different to when the football clubs tried to create the super league, all of a sudden everyone swarmed round backing UEFA - defending monolithic, monopolising organisations who own the game as soon as they're threatened by a newcomer is weird in my opinion. 

 

The BDO did it with darts when the PDC came along. Tried every trick in the book to call them shysters, claimed they were simply throwing money at people, etc. It was because their monopoly was threatened not because they cared about darts.

 

Is that what we've come to? You can only play under the PGA and its respective partners or you're scum? You can only play football under UEFA or you're scum? Anyone with new ideas, a new format, or a new direction is 'harming' the game? No, they're harming the status quo which is what the status quo doesn't like because it threatens the bottom line on their balance sheet. I see it as no different from a Tory claiming a Labour government would be bad because it would be worse for Average Joe, pretending they actually care about Average Joe and not their own interests. It really is that simple.

I didn’t realise you could be so wrong on two subjects at the same time. 
 

“ Nobody cares . . . “. You must live in a single-manned lighthouse on a remote island. Perhaps solve your “ rules issue “ before tackling SA. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Pastit

[SheriffBooth]

Members,

 

Shortly we will be closing the existing LIV Tour discussion threads and opening a new thread.  The purpose is to get back to our core values at GolfWRX and hit a "reset button" of sorts.  We feel that the discussion of the merits of LIV and, to a lesser extent, the political ramifications, have been fully explored at this point and the discussions have become a somewhat stale rehashing of the same recurring arguments.  We are starting over, and our core rules will be enforced just as they are in all other areas of the Forums.  To that end:

 

1.  No political discussion will be permitted whatsoever, including fund sourcing.  For many of you that have been posting in the LIV threads moderation will seem heavy handed for a time, but the LIV threads have eroded one of the founding principals of GolfWRX and one of the elements that make this place a safe haven on the internet.  Posts will be removed without notice or warning, and it will be within the moderators' full discretion to issue warnings and suspensions to members that can't help themselves.

2.  Reporting by members remains a very important part of moderation on these Forums.  If you are among the majority that love the GolfWRX Forums because of the lack of political discourse and the negativity that permeates much of the internet, it is important that you become comfortable using the Report feature to help the moderators deal with problems.

3.  Post-running and "running the site" will not be tolerated.  This means that if you are posting excessively in the LIV thread or elsewhere, your account may be temporarily suspended.  This will be in the moderators' discretion.

4.  Accounts that appear to have been created for the sole purpose of posting about LIV will be closely examined and may be suspended.

 

As always, thanks so much for being a part of GolfWRX!

 

Owners & Marshals

Edited August 2, 2022 by SheriffBooth