LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[khalespace]

12 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

But will regular golfers, like myself, support Callaway. I know I won’t.

I will avoid equipment companies that support LIV for sure. I have Callaway irons and hybrids but will not buy any Callaway product if they go along with LIV.

[idrive]

23 hours ago, hunterdog said:

But will regular golfers, like myself, support Callaway. I know I won’t.

 

Somewhere is this thread or the other one... I remember reading that every time JR won Callaways sales soared the next week.

 

I would think soared was a bit over blown but if they saw more sales, it was because these folks saw JR win.

 

In comparison, how many are going to see him play or even potentially win.  NObody is going to see him do so and certainly not the folks that are dropping the $'s for new equipment. A six pack maybe but not a new driver.  Louder baby, just louder.   🤣

 

 

sp

Edited December 12, 2023 by idrive

[Guest RobS]

14 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

We talking the same PGAT....?  Honestly I am older so maybe the PGAT changed but the whole structure is the PGAT sets up events and players playing for $$$ and the PGAT makes a % of dollars off said players playing.

The Tour revenue funds operations, purses, player incentives, pensions, etc.  There is no % that gets clipped off and goes to share holders, investors orowners and the like.

[tcbringhurst]

9 minutes ago, khalespace said:

I will avoid equipment companies that support LIV for sure. I have Callaway irons and hybrids but will not buy any Callaway product if they go along with LIV.

Hope you don’t drive a car that needs gas

[Rustynuts]

1 minute ago, tcbringhurst said:

Hope you don’t drive a car that needs gas

That argument is dumb, people don't have that luxury to decide where their gas comes from

[beluga99]

If as they say, there are to be more LIV signings this week, I'll be fascinated to see the state of golf in 12 months time.  Don't watch LIV but must say something had to change the way PGA golf was presented.  The amount of commercials makes it unwatchable.  If the networks see their product being diluted, more sponsors like Wells Fargo withdraw, star players no longer playing, and have a clause allowing them to renegotiate their contract?  Interesting times.

 

This topic is fascinating, given the majority of posts support PGA and decry the PIF/LIV.  Still commenting that LIV is irrelevant, rubbish, players washed up etc...  It doesn't matter.  PIF have unlimited money, and they want to win.  Ironic really, as the USA is arguably the most capitalistic culture in the world.  Whoever has the most money, generally wins.

 

The Majors this year are going to be even more watchable this year because of the disruption. 

 

Jon Rahm, takes his $9 million from the PGA PIP, and next week, joins LIV.  Now that's a businessman!

[pmang]

17 minutes ago, khalespace said:

I will avoid equipment companies that support LIV for sure. I have Callaway irons and hybrids but will not buy any Callaway product if they go along with LIV.

I believe this is what they refer to as “cancel culture”.

 

people do this when others don’t have the same belief system. It’s all about control….

[tcbringhurst]

5 minutes ago, Rustynuts said:

That argument is dumb, people don't have that luxury to decide where their gas comes from

And if the saudis have their way, we won’t be able to choose which tour to watch. So does that mean if someone doesn’t want to play a brand that supports the Saudis, will they choose Ram or Top Flite?

[hunterdog]

9 minutes ago, tcbringhurst said:

Hope you don’t drive a car that needs gas

You realize that the U.S. is a net exporter of oil.

[Guest RobS]

2 hours ago, woahnelly said:

 

Imagine how Gary Player felt 😄 ... travel was a nowhere near as luxurious back then either. 

 

LIV has a set schedule, like every other professional sport.  PGA sort of too, but that caters to the top players mainly. 

 

if the PGA were dominated by International Players like the LPGA, we'd see more overseas events. 2024 schedule to play in China 2x, Thailand, Korea,  Malaysia, Japan,  France, UK 2x .. also Canada and Hawaii but i won't highlight them like i wouldn't count Mexico or the resorts on the PGA, which most top players skip anyhow.

The PGA Tour's market is North America.  All of the tours within the Federation of PGA Tours agree to operate within their geographical markets with the exception of select co-sanctioned events.

[hunterdog]

1 minute ago, pmang said:

I believe this is what they refer to as “cancel culture”.

 

people do this when others don’t have the same belief system. It’s all about control….

It’s actually just a consumer making a choice based upon various purchasing criteria. Callaway can do what it wants to do and so can I.

[CDM]

3 hours ago, WorkItBothWays said:

“I don’t think for him it was the money,” Spieth said. “I believe he saw two places that neither one was in a great situation right now, and he said, ‘May as well have the money.’”

 

Both the headline and Spieth contradicted by his own words in the full quotes in the article.

 

Rahm was just on a couple of live interviews and he stated he told his management team to not talk to him about anything unless it made sense.   So it was not a money grab, what was offered is hard to turn down but rumors of what he got was the almost the same as the prior offer he turned down. 

 

The part I think Jordan is right on, Rahm basically indicated he was not happy with Jay and that a lot of players are not happy with Jay and how this has been handled by the PGAT.  He said for a lot of players it wil take years for that trust to be gained back.     

 

Jordan basically indicated what John seems to state in his interviews. As Jordan bascially said it if both are tours are "sh*t shows" and your doing the same thing on both then yes take the money.  

 

It is shocking how many comments there are that only focus on how much money a player makes. Who gives a hoot.  It does not change your day to day life as none of it goes in your bank account. I know it does not go into mine.   

 

Somewhere all the fans will have to understand this is a business, these players, all of them play the game for a LIVING...Players on the PGAT, DP Tour, etc.  Everyone acts they are owned, some cage animals that are here just for fans enjoyment.   

 

This is happening one way or another. 

 

IMHO.... the real sad part is the most recent annoucement.  IF the PGAT is going to do a joint venture on investments with a PE  which has 12 people and investment groups listed....and also do a deal with the PIF that is a double edge sword that is dangerous on one side. 

 

Any PE and given the letter had 12 of them noted....will flat out want a return and we know the PIF is more about credibility so they can probably push off returns until some balance in the world of golf happens.  PE groups will NOT do that... period...! They will set a time line on returns., if it does not happen they will cut corners to make it happen.

[tcbringhurst]

Just now, hunterdog said:

You realize that the U.S. is a net exporter of oil.

And for some reason we still get some oil from Saudi Arabia. 

[Rustynuts]

3 minutes ago, tcbringhurst said:

And if the saudis have their way, we won’t be able to choose which tour to watch. So does that mean if someone doesn’t want to play a brand that supports the Saudis, will they choose Ram or Top Flite?

The only brand I have heard so far "supporting " the Suadi's thru Rahm is Callaway

[Louis_Posture]

30 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

We talking the same PGAT....?  Honestly I am older so maybe the PGAT changed but the whole structure is the PGAT sets up events and players playing for $$$ and the PGAT makes a % of dollars off said players playing.

The PGA Tour has never operated the way you've written here.

The PGA Tour schedules tournaments and contracts with corporate sponsors who put up the money to fund the expenses and prize money for those tournaments. Other incoming revenues for the PGA Tour include television broadcast company payments and Pro-Am player contestant entry fees. The PGA Tour uses a portion of incoming revenues to fund its operations including employee payroll, employee travel, property rents, player pension contributions , cash reserve account etc...

[BirdieBob]

Kostis and McCord talk Rahm &LIV golf

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by BirdieBob

[tcbringhurst]

Just now, Rustynuts said:

The only brand I have heard so far "supporting " the Suadi's thru Rahm is Callaway

Right, but my point is if the Saudis end up owning professional golf, I doubt any major brands are going to pull sponsorships. Say goodbye to Titleist, Ping, Srixon, Taylormade, etc. No more ProV1/Chromesoft/TP5, etc

[pmang]

5 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

It’s actually just a consumer making a choice based upon various purchasing criteria. Callaway can do what it wants to do and so can I.

You can put a dress on a pig and call it a pretty woman all you want…. It’s still a pig.

[CDM]

24 minutes ago, RobS said:

The Tour revenue funds operations, purses, player incentives, pensions, etc.  There is no % that gets clipped off and goes to share holders, investors orowners and the like.

 

Sure but your statment is still not accurate.  They dont have stock, etc.

 

Saying the PGAT is not in this for revenue is wrong, when covid happen the PGAT had near 500mm in the bank. Phil liked to say 800mm but that was lie.   They used part of it for covid and since to compete with LIV, more so used roughly 250mm to get 50% control of hte DP Tour to stave off LIV buying that tour out. 

 

If you think the players own the tour validate it.  I am 100% sure the PGAT players had zero VOTE when the PGAT dropped near 250mm  buying more control in the DP Tour...   

 

Do you players, sorry owners of hte PGAT would have let that happen if they really "own" the tour?  They would have just said "sure" given the environment we are in today?

 

It is obvious your not up to speed on what the PGAT structure is. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by CDM

[Louis_Posture]

2 minutes ago, tcbringhurst said:

Right, but my point is if the Saudis end up owning professional golf

That won't happen. There are plenty of great players available to play on an autonomous player-owned PGA Tour, the same way it's been for the past 60 years.

[Guest RobS]

3 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

agree, but not sure about the pay cut.

I say pay cut because the PGA Tour's contracts are driven by their ability to produce strong fields in a high percentage of tournaments.  The networks aren't going to continue paying the Tour $700m a year to potentially have a bunch of Barbasol Open caliber fields and sponsors aren't going to pay top dollar if there's a chance to that the highest ranked player in their event isn't in the top 50.

[Holy Moses]

According to Tony Finau’s Instagram, he looks to be staying on the PGA Tour

[Rustynuts]

4 minutes ago, tcbringhurst said:

Right, but my point is if the Saudis end up owning professional golf, I doubt any major brands are going to pull sponsorships. Say goodbye to Titleist, Ping, Srixon, Taylormade, etc. No more ProV1/Chromesoft/TP5, etc

Well my interest in professional golf is zero, maybe it will take care of my interest in golf full stop

[Holy Moses]

1 minute ago, RobS said:

I say pay cut because the PGA Tour's contracts are driven by their ability to produce strong fields in a high percentage of tournaments.  The networks aren't going to continue paying the Tour $700m a year to potentially have a bunch of Barbasol Open caliber fields and sponsors aren't going to pay top dollar if there's a chance to that the highest ranked player in their event isn't in the top 50.

Supposedly the networks have opt outs if the average OWGR falls too low. But now that LIV isn’t getting OWGR points, that might not hurt them as much as we thought.

[Louis_Posture]

1 minute ago, CDM said:

 

Sure but your statment is still not accurate.  They dont have stock, etc.

 

Saying the PGAT is not in this for revenue is wrong, when covid happen the PGAT had near 500mm in the bank. Phil liked to say 800mm but that was lie.   They used part of it for covid and since to compete with LIV, more used like 250mm to get 50% control of hte DP Tour.

 

Explain how they are not making a profit of the players?  I am 100% sure if the PGAT players zero VOTE when the PGAT dropped 250mm on buying more control in the DP Tour...   

 

Do you think they would have let the PGAT if they really "own" the tour would have let that happen given the environment we are in today?

 

It is obvious your not up to speed on what the PGAT structure is. 

The players own the PGA Tour. The Tour Commissioner and his staff are employees of the players. If Phil Mickelson (or any other current Tour player) did not like the policies of the Tour or the way it was being managed he could have called for a collective vote of players (owners of the Tour) to make changes.

[CDM]

22 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

The PGA Tour has never operated the way you've written here.

The PGA Tour schedules tournaments and contracts with corporate sponsors who put up the money to fund the expenses and prize money for those tournaments. Other incoming revenues for the PGA Tour include television broadcast company payments and Pro-Am player contestant entry fees. The PGA Tour uses a portion of incoming revenues to fund its operations including employee payroll, employee travel, property rents, player pension contributions , cash reserve account etc...

 

Exactly.... so the PGAT is not owned by the players as noted.  It is a private non-profit that sets up events as I have stated over and over and to ensure sponsor / tv obligations are meet from said contracts they lock the players into 15 events minimum per year so they show up.

 

We are taliking the same thing, I replied that players do not own the tour as everyone knows. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by CDM

[bladehunter]

51 minutes ago, Cars said:

How is getting called a shill for LIV civil? If you feel my statements are inflammatory I'm not sure what to tell you, I have presented facts. 

I don’t think you were called out specifically.  You called out yourself. No ?  To begin with . She didn’t @ you.    I just found it funny who yelped.  

[bscinstnct]

15 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

Rahm was just on a couple of live interviews and he stated he told his management team to not talk to him about anything unless it made sense.   So it was not a money grab, what was offered is hard to turn down but rumors of what he got was the almost the same as the prior offer he turned down. 

 

The part I think Jordan is right on, Rahm basically indicated he was not happy with Jay and that a lot of players are not happy with Jay and how this has been handled by the PGAT.  He said for a lot of players it wil take years for that trust to be gained back.     

 

Jordan basically indicated what John seems to state in his interviews. As Jordan bascially said it if both are tours are "sh*t shows" and your doing the same thing on both then yes take the money.  

 

It is shocking how many comments there are that only focus on how much money a player makes. Who gives a hoot.  It does not change your day to day life as none of it goes in your bank account. I know it does not go into mine.   

 

Somewhere all the fans will have to understand this is a business, these players, all of them play the game for a LIVING...Players on the PGAT, DP Tour, etc.  Everyone acts they are owned, some cage animals that are here just for fans enjoyment.   

 

This is happening one way or another. 

 

IMHO.... the real sad part is the most recent annoucement.  IF the PGAT is going to do a joint venture on investments with a PE  which has 12 people and investment groups listed....and also do a deal with the PIF that is a double edge sword that is dangerous on one side. 

 

Any PE and given the letter had 12 of them noted....will flat out want a return and we know the PIF is more about credibility so they can probably push off returns until some balance in the world of golf happens.  PE groups will NOT do that... period...! They will set a time line on returns., if it does not happen they will cut corners to make it happen.

 

Those aren’t PE firms. Many are billionaire NFL MLB NBA franchise owners.  They can buy and grow and hold. And  this deal is structured around a healthy percentage of player ownership 

 

And it’s best if PIF is in. These guys I’ll do all kinds of deals outside of sports so it’s just rich guys making opportunities 

[CDM]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

The players own the PGA Tour. The Tour Commissioner and his staff are employees of the players. If Phil Mickelson (or any other current Tour player) did not like the policies of the Tour or the way it was being managed he could have called for a collective vote of players (owners of the Tour) to make changes.

 

🤣🤣🤣  You and RobS are right.

 

I am 100% wrong, I must have been in some parallel universe.  I see now that the PGAT players, sorry "owners" where stoked and throwing parties that Jay went on live to TV with Arum to let us all know they were doing a deal with PIF.  I remember now all the players partingy and saying it was like fairtales and unicorns of happiness they are now working with the PIF.

 

[CDM]

Just now, bscinstnct said:

 

Those aren’t PE firms. Many are billionaire NFL MLB NBA franchise owners.  They can buy and grow and hold. And  this deal is structured around a healthy percentage of player ownership 

 

And it’s best if PIF is in. These guys I’ll do all kinds of deals outside of sports so it’s just rich guys making opportunities 

 

You are correct sire, but they are making a PE entity based on what was on the golf channel last night with those 12.  They had some name for it last night an Fenway was handling it.   *Or what / how it was presented last night on GC.  

 

Can you imagine if they had each one a ownership group, that would be nightmare with that many involved.  

 

I think PIF needs to be in it also to control some aspects of what they are doing, but worries me with 0the funds they have. if one the 12 listed get cold feet and want to be bought out we all know PIF has the funds to take it down slowly over time.