LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[WesternRacing]

13 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So Cam Smith is still a top 10 player because he had a 4th in the 2023 US Open? Or maybe Detry would be because he had a t4 at the 2024 PGA?
 

And talk about a closed shop!  If they only ranking was for your 5 events the guys that play in them would be the same field for the next 40 years.  No one else would ever have a way to get into the events.  

 

No, Cam Smith wouldn’t be a top 10 player in my example because he’s missed 5-6 cuts in a row in the majors.  This is exactly my point.  He wouldn’t even be on the list.

[WesternRacing]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Data gets more accurate/representative with more points.

 

If you use the OWGR ranking method with just majors you would look at it currently and see JJ Spaun pretty daggone high on the list.  God bless JJ Spaun, but I believe if that list existed as you want to see it, it would have him much higher ranked by virtue of his US Open win than what is likely true.  Same for Robert Macintyre.  He put up a 2 and a T7 in the last two majors.  In those two most recent ones he has a better record than Rory.

 

Well it wouldn’t be just two events, it’d be the last 15.  But if McIntyre is currently repeatedly beating the best players in the world, maybe he’s a little better than the rankings suggest?  In the past two seasons, he’s had 3 top tens in the majors and two missed cuts.  JT has had one top ten and three missed cuts.  And McIntyre only played in seven majors over that span, so he has three top tens in seven majors.  Yet JT is #4 in the OWGR and McIntyre is #14…

 

Colin Morikawa hasn’t had a top ten in the last six majors, yet he’s the #6 ranked player in the world?  Riiiiiggggghhhht…

 

Edited July 23 by WesternRacing

[Holy Moses]

51 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Well it wouldn’t be just two events, it’d be the last 15.  But if McIntyre is currently repeatedly beating the best players in the world, maybe he’s a little better than the rankings suggest?  In the past two seasons, he’s had 3 top tens in the majors and two missed cuts.  JT has had one top ten and three missed cuts.  And McIntyre only played in seven majors over that span, so he has three top tens in seven majors.  Yet JT is #4 in the OWGR and McIntyre is #14…

 

Colin Morikawa hasn’t had a top ten in the last six majors, yet he’s the #6 ranked player in the world?  Riiiiiggggghhhht…

 

He’s played really well in Signature events and other strong field events the last 2 years

[WesternRacing]

47 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

He’s played really well in Signature events and other strong field events the last 2 years

 

Great, but it’s not against the strongest fields in golf.  The strongest fields in golf are consistently the Majors and The Players.  They’re also the highest pressure tournaments of the year.  In any sport, the truly best players are the ones who excel on the biggest stage against the best competition.  I love JT, but the idea that he’s the 4th best player in the world right now is beyond laughable.  And Morikawa at #6?  I can’t recall the last time I’ve actually seen him on the TV on a Sunday.  If you told me he was out on a medical, I’d have believed you.

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Great, but it’s not against the strongest fields in golf.  The strongest fields in golf are consistently the Majors and The Players.  They’re also the highest pressure tournaments of the year.  In any sport, the truly best players are the ones who excel on the biggest stage against the best competition.  I love JT, but the idea that he’s the 4th best player in the world right now is beyond laughable.  And Morikawa at #6?  I can’t recall the last time I’ve actually seen him on the TV on a Sunday.  If you told me he was out on a medical, I’d have believed you.

 

Why don’t you try your idea? Just take the last 8 majors and take the top 30 finishers and give them 1-30 points based on how they finished. Then add it all up for each and rank accordingly. 

 

@ThinkingPlus you da math wiz, would that work? 
 

Youve gone as far as you can go just throwing out random anecdotes. 
 

Here are CMorikowas, not too bad. 
 

 

Edited July 23 by bscinstnct

[WesternRacing]

7 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Why don’t you try your idea? Just take the last 8 majors and take the top 30 finishers and give them 1-30 points based on how they finished. Then add it all up for each and rank accordingly. 

 

@ThinkingPlus you da math wiz, would that work? 
 

Youve gone as far as you can go just throwing out random anecdotes. 
 

Here are CMorikowas, not too bad. 
 

 

 

Six straight not top 10s?  Yet he’s the 6th best player IN THE WORLD?  Hmmm…

 

As far as doing the math, I retired early and haven’t touched a computer in years.  You couldn’t pay me to boot up Excel and start building spreadsheets again.

[jdl]

14 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Why don’t you try your idea? Just take the last 8 majors and take the top 30 finishers and give them 1-30 points based on how they finished. Then add it all up for each and rank accordingly. 

 

@ThinkingPlus you da math wiz, would that work? 
 

Youve gone as far as you can go just throwing out random anecdotes. 
 

Here are CMorikowas, not too bad. 
 

 

 

Looks like you could do this on data golf but have to be a subscriber.

[bscinstnct]

5 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Six straight not top 10s?  Yet he’s the 6th best player IN THE WORLD?  Hmmm…

 

As far as doing the math, I retired early and haven’t touched a computer in years.  You couldn’t pay me to boot up Excel and start building spreadsheets again.

 

Kick it old school! You retired, plenty of time 🤣 🍻 

 

Seriously, you keep talking and it wouldn’t take too long ; )

 

 

 

[WesternRacing]

Just now, bscinstnct said:

 

Kick it old school! You retired, plenty of time 🤣 🍻 

 

 

 

Not for math! 

[Danielson]

I wonder if it will tell us Scottie is the best

[ThinkingPlus]

18 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Why don’t you try your idea? Just take the last 8 majors and take the top 30 finishers and give them 1-30 points based on how they finished. Then add it all up for each and rank accordingly. 

 

@ThinkingPlus you da math wiz, would that work? 
 

Youve gone as far as you can go just throwing out random anecdotes. 
 

Here are CMorikowas, not too bad. 
 

 

You could do something like that and get a ranking, but the devil is in the details of how you allocate points vs making the cut not top 30 vs MC vs DNP. Things are never as simple as first conceptualized.

[Holy Moses]

47 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Great, but it’s not against the strongest fields in golf.  The strongest fields in golf are consistently the Majors and The Players.  They’re also the highest pressure tournaments of the year.  In any sport, the truly best players are the ones who excel on the biggest stage against the best competition.  I love JT, but the idea that he’s the 4th best player in the world right now is beyond laughable.  And Morikawa at #6?  I can’t recall the last time I’ve actually seen him on the TV on a Sunday.  If you told me he was out on a medical, I’d have believed you.

They are not THE strongest fields, but close to it. That’s why you don’t get as many OWGR points for them.

 

As far as Justin Thomas is concerned, he’s had a 9, 2, 1, 2, 9, 6, 2, 3, 7, 5, 5 in eligible recent events. He’s playing pretty well. 

Edited July 23 by Holy Moses

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

 

No, Cam Smith wouldn’t be a top 10 player in my example because he’s missed 5-6 cuts in a row in the majors.  This is exactly my point.  He wouldn’t even be on the list.

But he’d be overrated based on that one finish. Which is exactly my point.

 

As a matter of fact he’d be rated better than a guy that has 2 wins per year in events that don’t seem to matter to you.  
 

IMO….apparently not in yours….golf is different than other sports. The regular season is not a preamble to a World Series…or Super Bowl.  Every event matters, not equally as the majors are elevated in prestige but they are not the be all end all.  To me it’s absolutely absurd to think a Ray Floyd had a better career than Billy Casper when he won 22 times vs 51 times by Casper just because he had 4 majors and Casper 3.

Edited July 24 by Shilgy

[Dave230]

The world rankings are a guide, the best anyone has come up with, of the best players in the world going into any given week. Only basing it off the majors is very flawed. If a random player won 6 PGA Tour tournaments in a row now between the Masters, the idea that they wouldn't be one of the best players in the world because they hadn't played well in the previous years majors would be ridiculous. Scheffler was never in the top 3 of a major before he won the 2022 Masters, but he still was world number 1 and everyone knew he was, and he proved it.

[smashdn]

18 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... But we don't. We really don't. Kinda like getting a bread basket with dinner. We don't have to eat it or pay any attention to it, even though it is there and ostensibly a part of the meal, it is easily ignored. 

 

It is still in the way on your table to further your poor analogy.  And you can smell it.

[smashdn]

18 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

Well it wouldn’t be just two events, it’d be the last 15.

 

I never said it would be only two events.  I said if it were to follow the OWGR methodology the more recent events are weighted more than further ago performances.  That makes sense.

 

In that vein you would see Robert Macintyre much higher than say Colin Morikawa to use your example.  Should he be though?

 

18 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

 But if McIntyre is currently repeatedly beating the best players in the world, maybe he’s a little better than the rankings suggest?  

 

No.

 

18 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

In the past two seasons, he’s had 3 top tens in the majors and two missed cuts.  JT has had one top ten and three missed cuts.  And McIntyre only played in seven majors over that span, so he has three top tens in seven majors.  Yet JT is #4 in the OWGR and McIntyre is #14…

 

Colin Morikawa hasn’t had a top ten in the last six majors, yet he’s the #6 ranked player in the world?  Riiiiiggggghhhht…

 

 

[Titleist99]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

But he’d be overrated based on that one finish. Which is exactly my point.

 

As a matter of fact he’d be rated better than a guy that has 2 wins per year in events that don’t seem to matter to you.  
 

IMO….apparently not in yours….golf is different than other sports. The regular season is not a preamble to a World Series…or Super Bowl.  Every event matters, not equally as the majors are elevated in prestige but they are not the be all end all.  To me it’s absolutely absurd to think a Ray Floyd had a better career than Billy Casper when he won 22 times vs 51 times by Casper just because he had 4 majors and Casper 3.

And just to add more context, Koepka has five major tournaments, and his career as it stands isn't as good as either, IMO>

[Holy Moses]

What’s a million for Rahm and Hatton? Nothing. Maybe it’s just the principle of the matter, but just pay your fines if the Ryder Cup is so important to you. And they will.

 

Edited July 24 by Holy Moses

[BSI99]

11 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

 

 

anyone have a non paywalled version?

[Holy Moses]

14 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

anyone have a non paywalled version?

LIV had been paying DP World Tour fines for LIV players, but will stop after this year. LIV has paid approximately $15 million to keep their players eligible to play on the Ryder Cup. Courts have ruled against LIV players so far, and Rahm and Hatton’s cases are coming up next. Rahm has said he’ll never pay for fines, but so did Sergio and his was paid his eventually. 
 

The LIV money faucets are beginning to run a little dry.

Edited July 24 by Holy Moses

[johnseg]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

LIV had been paying DP World Tour fines for LIV players, but will stop after this year. LIV has paid approximately $15 million to keep their players eligible to play on the Ryder Cup. Courts have ruled against LIV players so far, and Rahm and Hatton’s cases are coming up next. Rahm has said he’ll never pay for fines, but so did Sergio and his was paid his eventually. 
 

The LIV money faucets are beginning to run a little dry.

Nothing is drying up but the desire. I really wonder how much longer they are really going to be interested in this venture. We all know that cash isn't an issue, but maybe the desire to see it through is lacking.

[Mr.Cleeks]

52 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

LIV had been paying DP World Tour fines for LIV players, but will stop after this year. LIV has paid approximately $15 million to keep their players eligible to play on the Ryder Cup. Courts have ruled against LIV players so far, and Rahm and Hatton’s cases are coming up next. Rahm has said he’ll never pay for fines, but so did Sergio and his was paid his eventually. 
 

The LIV money faucets are beginning to run a little dry.

100% and the cracks/signs are starting to show. LIV has already confirmed that their won't any massive signing bonuses for renewals. They gave Rahm $300M, Phil $200M, Brooks $130M, DJ/Bryson $125M, Cam Smith $100M. Even Hatton got $60M (did a quick google search and these were what I found for contract values). That's over $1B spent on 7 guys. 

 

 

https://www.golfmagic.com/tour/liv-golf/report-liv-golf-provides-huge-update-contract-renewals-could-affect-dustin-johnson

[StoutKing]

1 minute ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

100% and the cracks/signs are starting to show. LIV has already confirmed that their won't any massive signing bonuses for renewals. They gave Rahm $300M, Phil $200M, Brooks $130M, DJ/Bryson $125M, Cam Smith $100M. Even Hatton got $60M (did a quick google search and these were what I found for contract values). That's over $1B spent on 7 guys. 

 

 

https://www.golfmagic.com/tour/liv-golf/report-liv-golf-provides-huge-update-contract-renewals-could-affect-dustin-johnson

They could have spend 40% of that and gotten them to leave.  They got ripped off badly.

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

What’s a million for Rahm and Hatton? Nothing. Maybe it’s just the principle of the matter, but just pay your fines if the Ryder Cup is so important to you. And they will.

 

 

Do they not want them playing in the Ryder Cup? Or maybe they figure they get so much money they can pay 🤣

[Holy Moses]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

100% and the cracks/signs are starting to show. LIV has already confirmed that their won't any massive signing bonuses for renewals. They gave Rahm $300M, Phil $200M, Brooks $130M, DJ/Bryson $125M, Cam Smith $100M. Even Hatton got $60M (did a quick google search and these were what I found for contract values). That's over $1B spent on 7 guys. 

 

 

https://www.golfmagic.com/tour/liv-golf/report-liv-golf-provides-huge-update-contract-renewals-could-affect-dustin-johnson

Yes but the players and their families are happier than ever while LIV loses a billion a year because the happy golfers bring ridiculously small ratings compared to the money they asked for when joining LIV. All is well, brother! 

[Holy Moses]

5 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Do they not want them playing in the Ryder Cup? Or maybe they figure they get so much money they can pay 🤣

Yes, pay it themselves. You pay guys $60-300 million to come over and you want me to also pay your $1 million annual fines in perpetuity? Sorry! 

[Titleist99]

3 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Yes but the players and their families are happier than ever while LIV loses a billion a year because the happy golfers bring ridiculously small ratings compared to the money they asked for when joining LIV. All is well, brother! 

 

Agreed. I'm shocked that anyone wants to see them play on the Ryder Cup team.

 

No one is flocking to see them play in Saudi events.

[Titleist99]

3 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Yes, pay it themselves. You pay guys $60-300 million to come over and you want me to also pay your $1 million annual fines in perpetuity? Sorry! 

The Saudis are very gullible, and the players have a sense of entitlement.

[Holy Moses]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

 

Agreed. I'm shocked that anyone wants to see them play on the Ryder Cup team.

 

No one is flocking to see them play in Saudi events.

I think most everyone wants to see Rahm and Hatton and possibly Sergio at the Ryder Cup. The event would be weakened if they weren't there.

 

Adelaide is a big event and some others draw decently, but overall the numbers are not what LIV and the PIF would have imagined this far in. I think they are getting a few more sponsors, but they still aren't even close to being profitable. But who knows if the goal of LIV is to be even profitable on its own. I know MBS says that he just wants GDP growth, but I can't see how LIV is contributing anything much to that. 

Edited July 24 by Holy Moses

[Mr.Cleeks]

6 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Yes but the players and their families are happier than ever while LIV loses a billion a year because the happy golfers bring ridiculously small ratings compared to the money they asked for when joining LIV. All is well, brother! 

The biggest winner in all of this is Bryson. The guy got paid good money,  probably has the largest fanbase of any active golfer, is a regular contender in majors and earned his way onto the RC team.