LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[pingbling23]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

I don't think you can honestlyy say players have "invested most of their live helping improve and grow the PGA Tour" or the "PGA tour has made a lot of money off the backs of many LIV players." These players have been looking out for themselves, any improvement or growth to the PGA is collateral damage. And the PGA Tour is where it is regardless of players, except for 1. The LIV players have made a lot of money off the backs of the PGA Tour and Tiger Woods.

You can obtusely say it’s collateral damage but it doesn’t change the facts. LIV has multiple players that have accumulated wins, majors and unforgettable Ryder cup moments that have grown the game and increased interest/revenue for the pga and euro tours.  It’s ridiculous to ban players for wanting to play a different tour, league, series, etc.  We will see how the court rules.  If the pga tour is doing nothing wrong issuing out bans, interfering with players sponsorships, or strong arming businesses to not have any relationships with LIV then so be it.

[oikos1]

38 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Just curious what JT's physical size has to do with zipping 4-irons at Gooch’s ankles?

 

Are you saying JT's swing speed is substandard?

Title of the thread is "liv tour discussion thread" and some are debating swing speed vs. ankle size. 

 

What in the what is happening around here?!?!?

 

 

[Sharpee]

These lawsuits are orchestrated by Norman and the Saudis.  These players left the PGA for a reason (money) and considering its easier on LIV to earn, it makes no sense for this case.  I think the real reason is with no OWGR ranking points for the foreseeable future and low viewership, Norman knows he still needs to ride the DP and PGA tour coattails in order to keep them relevant.  Its a strategic move to both create more noise and keep LIV players visible.  Norman needs to buy time until hopefully LIV can survive on their own merit.  

 

Its do or die time for Norman and the next 6-12-months will determine survival.   if things do not go their way with OWGR ranking points and access to other tours for his players, LIV is dead.  YouTube and puking losses isn't a viable model.

 

 

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Sharpee said:

These lawsuits are orchestrated by Norman and the Saudis.  These players left the PGA for a reason (money) and considering its easier on LIV to earn, it makes no sense for this case.  I think the real reason is with no OWGR ranking points for the foreseeable future and low viewership, Norman knows he still needs to ride the DP and PGA tour coattails in order to keep them relevant.  Its a strategic move to both create more noise and keep LIV players visible.  Norman needs to buy time until hopefully LIV can survive on their own merit.  

 

Its do or die time for Norman and the next 6-12-months will determine survival.   if things do not go their way with OWGR ranking points and access to other tours for his players, LIV is dead.  YouTube and puking losses isn't a viable model.

 

 

Hmmm... Interesting synopsis.

 

Now reverse engineer the whole deal. 

 

Yeah, LIV can survive on it's own for a while...

[Short Pete]

3 hours ago, Sharpee said:

Its do or die time for Norman and the next 6-12-months will determine survival.   if things do not go their way with OWGR ranking points and access to other tours for his players, LIV is dead.  YouTube and puking losses isn't a viable model.

 

 

It is more the next 6 to 8 weeks. If LIV doesn't get two or three of the young players like Burns, Cantlay, Finau or Homa real quick then the whole brouhaha around this tour is gone. Every day this suing by the LIV players is around is a winning day for the PGA Tour. Obviously Norman had recruited the weakest link (Mickelson, "cmon mate, I'll cover your gambling debts, in return you get me the good players"), that did not work out the way he wanted to because the PGA Tour suspended Mickelson quickly, which was the right thing to do. Norman then got Koepka (who doesn't seem to really care anymore) and Reed (Mr. Me Against The World), and that was about it. No one wants to see a player past his prime who wants to spend more time with his family (say Kaymer) captain a team of also-rans from the Asian and the European Tour, and no one will invest in such a team. They want Finau, Burns, Young and Zalatoris battling it out with DJ, Reed DeChambeau and Gooch, with a European top team like Rahm, Fitz, Fleetwod and Molinari also in the mix. That could be interesting. Who cares about Ormsby, Smyth, Morgan and Jones?

 

But I guess Norman estimated a few things wrong: The younger players play for competition. They want to win tournaments, and most of all Majors. It matters to them. What did these guys dream of when they played at a younger age? Winning on the PGA Tour, winning the Masters or The Open, I guess. They all know that the money will take care of itself when they play well. Look at Tony Finau when he won the two tournaments. He was proud of what he achieved. He is a multiple winner on Tour. He worked his a** of and he earned these victories. Is Stenson proud of winning at Bedminster? I don't think so. He won a meaningless Invitational and got paid too much money for it. And Koepka seems like one of those guys who always wanted to make a living being an athlete, and the sport he was good at happened to be golf. He doesn't really like playing golf, he said it himself. And Norman overestimated his impact on the game of golf and on today's players. For 15 years he was the guy who should have dominated the golfing world but didn't. There was no Norman era. No one cares about the World ranking when you don't win Majors. He feels he should be named in a row with Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino, Player and Woods. But even Larry Nelson has won more Majors. Faldo won 6 in Norman's prime. Els, Singh, Price, Stewart all have more. And every time someone says something critical about him Norman says the guy's got his number, why didn't he call the great Greg? Maybe because most people have zero interest to talk to a man who is full of himself and all about the money when the subject is golf.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Short Pete

[SurfDuffer]

Perhaps these well known players can go to LIV since they've now fallen off of the PGA Tour and will have to rely on exemptions to get into PGA events next year:

 

Zach Johnson

Rory Sabbatini

Charley Hoffman 

Bill Haas

Luke Donald

Brandt Snedeker

Jimmy Walker

Danny Willett

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Why can't those who post or have strong feelings just get to the place where there is the LIV Golf Tour and the PGA Tour?

 

It seems obvious they are going to co-exist, at least for a moment.

 

Support the PGA Tour.  If that's all it takes, it should be fine.

I disagree.  I don’t think it’s obvious at all that they’ll coexist .  I don’t really see how that’s possible.  The only way is if the LIV buys the euro tour and adopts it’s format. Which essentially is a renaming of the euro tour.  
 

You can’t have some guys collecting world ranking points for team  play during a Mickey Mouse events and allowing that to gain entrance  into real events. 
 

this is actual tournament golf vs whatever they’re playing. 

[bladehunter]

6 hours ago, Sharpee said:

These lawsuits are orchestrated by Norman and the Saudis.  These players left the PGA for a reason (money) and considering its easier on LIV to earn, it makes no sense for this case.  I think the real reason is with no OWGR ranking points for the foreseeable future and low viewership, Norman knows he still needs to ride the DP and PGA tour coattails in order to keep them relevant.  Its a strategic move to both create more noise and keep LIV players visible.  Norman needs to buy time until hopefully LIV can survive on their own merit.  

 

Its do or die time for Norman and the next 6-12-months will determine survival.   if things do not go their way with OWGR ranking points and access to other tours for his players, LIV is dead.  YouTube and puking losses isn't a viable model.

 

 

Thank you. That’s exactly it. If his players can’t double dip , you’ve got a group of top 200 guys at best in a few months. Can’t claim top players then. The more soft golf they play , the worse they’ll get.  

[aus10KC]

9 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Freedom.  They don’t want to be banned.  Some have invested most of their life helping improve and grow the pga tour.  This would allow current and future players to play LIV for as long as they want and still have a path to the pga if they choose and meet the qualifications.  The pga tour has made a lot of money off the backs of many LIV players.  A ban is unreasonable.

 

Who is the PGAT, they have no shareholders? So who is making all this money? It exists to put on tournaments for it's members.

 

Don't understand your comment in Bold.

 

 

[tiderider]

9 hours ago, NJBigFish22 said:

Agree that overall it isn’t a big win for either side, but It is a very small win for the LIV players trying to play, and I’m sure LIV views as a significant step in the process.  Not likely to happen, but what if Taylor Gooch miraculously won the whole thing, which if he can’t play he has absolutely no chance.  

so ... unless you have a pathway into an event, or series of events, you can't win? ... and taylor has been given a chance, based solely on his golf score, to qualify for said event/series ... 

 

interesting concept ... 

[tiderider]

1 hour ago, SurfDuffer said:

Perhaps these well known players can go to LIV since they've now fallen off of the PGA Tour and will have to rely on exemptions to get into PGA events next year:

 

Zach Johnson

Rory Sabbatini

Charley Hoffman 

Bill Haas

Luke Donald

Brandt Snedeker

Jimmy Walker

Danny Willett

liv don't want zj ... he'll go out there, actually compete and eat those mf alive ... 

[bscinstnct]

 

[Dave230]

3 hours ago, SurfDuffer said:

Perhaps these well known players can go to LIV since they've now fallen off of the PGA Tour and will have to rely on exemptions to get into PGA events next year:

 

Zach Johnson

Rory Sabbatini

Charley Hoffman 

Bill Haas

Luke Donald

Brandt Snedeker

Jimmy Walker

Danny Willett

Luke Donald has already said he wouldn't join as he took the Ryder Cup captaincy. "Wouldn't do a Stenson" he said. A lot of players have gone against their word, so who knows, but you would think he's a safe one to stay.

[oikos1]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I disagree.  I don’t think it’s obvious at all that they’ll coexist .  I don’t really see how that’s possible.  The only way is if the LIV buys the euro tour and adopts it’s format. Which essentially is a renaming of the euro tour.  
 

You can’t have some guys collecting world ranking points for team  play during a Mickey Mouse events and allowing that to gain entrance  into real events. 
 

this is actual tournament golf vs whatever they’re playing. 

Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is they are co-existing currently.

 

If the only solution is one or the other can only exist, well, careful what you wish for.  The LIV seems willing to adapt.

 

My point is the PGA Tour needs to find a way to continue to be the best Tour in the world while recognizing other professional Tours exist.  They seem to only want to do that when they have a financial interest in those tours.

 

Seriously, how can the PGA Tour claim to grow the game world wide, which they do in black and white in their very own mission statement, if they see any professional Tour as a threat?  (and call it mickey mouse all you want, the players on the LIV are still in the top 0.001 percent of golfers in the world.  They are still pros)

 

I don't expect an answer to that question because if anyone answered it honestly, well, we know the answer already.

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is they are co-existing currently.

 

If the only solution is one or the other can only exist, well, careful what you wish for.  The LIV seems willing to adapt.

 

My point is the PGA Tour needs to find a way to continue to be the best Tour in the world while recognizing other professional Tours exist.  They seem to only want to do that when they have a financial interest in those tours.

 

Seriously, how can the PGA Tour claim to grow the game world wide, which they do in black and white in their very own mission statement, if they see any professional Tour as a threat?  (and call it mickey mouse all you want, the players on the LIV are still in the top 0.001 percent of golfers in the world.  They are still pros)

 

I don't expect an answer to that question because if anyone answered it honestly, well, we know the answer already.

 

 

 

 

Being the best is measuring against the best. They stopped doing that. They’re in a bubble now. Of self affirmation. That won’t show you to be best .  Only DJ qualified as best to begin with. The rest are washed up or never was. When compared to the best. 
 

 The reason they can’t coexist isn’t the pga tour it’s Greg. He won’t stop until he has The only major tour. The pga tour knows this. Which is the reason for the scorched earth response. It’s really the only way to handle a bully. Swift direct action. 
 

the Saudi golf league - now LIV didn’t come to the scene hat in hand and ask for guidance on how to coexist. They showed up and took. This plus Greg’s words show is their intentions. 

[bladehunter]

18 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

Luke Donald has already said he wouldn't join as he took the Ryder Cup captaincy. "Wouldn't do a Stenson" he said. A lot of players have gone against their word, so who knows, but you would think he's a safe one to stay.

Zach isn’t going. He’s as outspoken as JT against it. 

[idrive]

3 hours ago, SurfDuffer said:

Perhaps these well known players can go to LIV since they've now fallen off of the PGA Tour and will have to rely on exemptions to get into PGA events next year:

 

Zach Johnson

Rory Sabbatini

Charley Hoffman 

Bill Haas

Luke Donald

Brandt Snedeker

Jimmy Walker

Danny Willett

 

Yes, but with liv it doesn't work that way.

 

Lets suppose that everyone on your list wants to/decides to go play with liv.

 

Sorry, without an invite from GN you don't play.  It's as simple as that. 

 

Besides, he already has all the 150 -1000 ranked players on the downside of their careers covered.  

 

 

[bscinstnct]

17 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is they are co-existing currently.

 

If the only solution is one or the other can only exist, well, careful what you wish for.  The LIV seems willing to adapt.

 

My point is the PGA Tour needs to find a way to continue to be the best Tour in the world while recognizing other professional Tours exist.  They seem to only want to do that when they have a financial interest in those tours.

 

Seriously, how can the PGA Tour claim to grow the game world wide, which they do in black and white in their very own mission statement, if they see any professional Tour as a threat?  (and call it mickey mouse all you want, the players on the LIV are still in the top 0.001 percent of golfers in the world.  They are still pros)

 

I don't expect an answer to that question because if anyone answered it honestly, well, we know the answer already.

 

 

 

 

 

Lets be 100% honest. 
 

The liv is straight up poaching the absolute best players on the pga tour to play in their 14 event tour. 

 

How can a pga tour member play even 15 pga tour events and 14 liv events. 
 

They can’t. 
 

Do you see Brooks or Bryson or DJ looking to play 15 pga tour events ? No, they just abandoned the tour for the liv. Enough guys leave the pga tour the same way they did, there is no pga tour. 
 

So, not singling you out, but you know as well as I do that recruiting the best players out of the pga tour to play 14 events would cast the pga tour to oblivion or 3rd class status. 
 

So, the liv has given the pga tour NO choice but to treat the liv with the very same approach the liv is treating the tour.

 

As head to head competition. 
 

That’s the real deal and we all know it. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by bscinstnct

[jdl]

 

[BTE0816]

On 8/6/2022 at 8:26 AM, Bubb said:

The suit seemed ridiculous at the time but one offshoot was that McDonald’s redesigned their coffee cup lids soon thereafter and the redesign was vastly superior. The suit was the impetus for the redesign.

 

The suit seemed ridiculous at the time because that is how the McDonald's media team wanted it to appear. Discredit the plaintiff before the trial with late night jokes etc. She tried to settle before trial for $18k, which were her medical fees and lost wages. Once the facts came out it was never a doubt.

• 3rd degree burns
• 8 days in the hospital and skin grafts
• "fused her labia to her leg"
• 40-50 degrees above the max McD's coffee temp.

[lakecowboy]

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

[bscinstnct]

10 minutes ago, jdl said:

 

 

it’s interesting it looks like they say that Gooch intended to play more than one event. 
 

How do they know?

 

I wonder if they would look to start calling in various players, liv management, and liv documents/contacts , to support this contention. 
 

That could be fun ; )

[physasst]

1 minute ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

Disagree, if PGA went to the LIV model, I think many people wouldn't watch. I know I wouldn't. I don't watch for entertainment value. I watch for the competition. What Bryson and some of them parroting the "entertainment product" verbiage don't get, is that the competition creates the entertainment. Tiger never cared for one second if you found him entertaining. He wanted to beat everyone and break every record. THAT became the entertainment, but it was a by product of intense competition, not the singular goal itself. 

M

[lakecowboy]

2 minutes ago, physasst said:

Disagree, if PGA went to the LIV model, I think many people wouldn't watch. I know I wouldn't. I don't watch for entertainment value. I watch for the competition. What Bryson and some of them parroting the "entertainment product" verbiage don't get, is that the competition creates the entertainment. Tiger never cared for one second if you found him entertaining. He wanted to beat everyone and break every record. THAT became the entertainment, but it was a by product of intense competition, not the singular goal itself. 

M

The PGA has a Tiger problem, there was only one and they can't find another.  He grew the game by leaps and bounds and when he's done, done.  They're going to be bloated and lacking anything resembling Tiger.  They thought they had it in Rory, then Spieth, then Koepke, then Morikawa and they just don't.  They likely never will.  The LIV fight is coming at an awful time for them.

[jonsnow]

On 8/5/2022 at 8:06 AM, bscinstnct said:

 

Ya, this is where nitty gritty of lawyering lol will be highlighted. 
 

The tour allegedly pressuring or colluding with/against other tours or sponsors. Was this done in a manner that violates the law? 
 

You’d think the tour would run any actions that could be illegal, or even interpreted as illegal, by lawyers with the background to advise. 
 

But, maybe they were dumb about it, who knows. 
 

Monahan seems competent but not necessarily razor sharp, Im actually wondering if he’s the guy to lead the tour going forward. At the very least,,he needs some outside expertise/consultants on a few levels. Not just to handle blowback, but to plan the best path forward.

 

 

 

Time to go to the mattresses.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by jonsnow

[idrive]

17 minutes ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

 

The only reason I'd want to see these guys would be to have someone to root against.

 

I don't get people wanting to see the same guys putting on an exhibition each and every time.

[aus10KC]

8 minutes ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA has a Tiger problem, there was only one and they can't find another.  He grew the game by leaps and bounds and when he's done, done.  They're going to be bloated and lacking anything resembling Tiger.  They thought they had it in Rory, then Spieth, then Koepke, then Morikawa and they just don't.  They likely never will.  The LIV fight is coming at an awful time for them.

 

Maybe not another Tiger, but another player will come around with incredible natural talent, athleticism, along with the drive and focus needed to dominate the competition. 

 

Right now there is incredible parody in which no player really dominates. You'll see small stretches of great play from these guys but continued dominance from long stretches is very difficult when there isn't much separating these guys talent wise. 

 

What tour will that player play on?

[johnseg]

21 minutes ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

So you don't want the best players or the best golf, you want to hear names you know.

[Krt22]

17 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

it’s interesting it looks like they say that Gooch intended to play more than one event. 
 

How do they know?

 

I wonder if they would look to start calling in various players, liv management, and liv documents/contacts , to support this contention. 
 

That could be fun ; )

He already showed the world how terrible of a liar he is when he said the first event was like a Ryder Cup. You don't say something that idiotic unless you already inked a deal and are swimming in the funny money. Not to mention why would they bring in a top 50 player to play a single event, when their field is fixed. 

[lowndes]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

 

Thanks for posting - very good read.  I thought this was very well written and reasoned.  Much more so than the plaintiffs initial complaint.  As an aside, I went to law school with one of the lead attorneys for the PGA Tour.  I have not kept up with him post law school but he was one of the smartest guys I knew while I was in law school.  I also think Keker, Van Nest is one of the best litigation shops in the country right now.  I've never come across one of their lawyers who wasn't really impressive.