LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[allenriverside]

18 minutes ago, physasst said:

Disagree, if PGA went to the LIV model, I think many people wouldn't watch. I know I wouldn't. I don't watch for entertainment value. I watch for the competition. What Bryson and some of them parroting the "entertainment product" verbiage don't get, is that the competition creates the entertainment. Tiger never cared for one second if you found him entertaining. He wanted to beat everyone and break every record. THAT became the entertainment, but it was a by product of intense competition, not the singular goal itself. 

M

Tiger is no longer here to save the tour from themselves, obviously he'll never dominate again.. so using him as the standard for competition is foolish.  The PGA was on a fast track to become MLB before LIV ignited things.

  

[jdl]

26 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

it’s interesting it looks like they say that Gooch intended to play more than one event. 
 

How do they know?

 

I wonder if they would look to start calling in various players, liv management, and liv documents/contacts , to support this contention. 
 

That could be fun ; )

Yeah I am looking forward to more of these discoveries.

[smashdn]

56 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Being the best is measuring against the best. They stopped doing that. They’re in a bubble now. Of self affirmation. That won’t show you to be best .  Only DJ qualified as best to begin with. The rest are washed up or never was. When compared to the best. 
 

 The reason they can’t coexist isn’t the pga tour it’s Greg. He won’t stop until he has The only major tour. The pga tour knows this. Which is the reason for the scorched earth response. It’s really the only way to handle a bully. Swift direct action. 
 

the Saudi golf league - now LIV didn’t come to the scene hat in hand and ask for guidance on how to coexist. They showed up and took. This plus Greg’s words show is their intentions. 

 

Didn't they initially ask for a meeting with the PGAT to discuss the model and how they could work together?

[CasualLie]

9 minutes ago, allenriverside said:

Tiger is no longer here to save the tour from themselves, obviously he'll never dominate again.. so using him as the standard for competition is foolish.  The PGA was on a fast track to become MLB before LIV ignited things.

  

The PGAT (a $1.5B annual revenue league) was on fast track to MLB (a $11B annual revenue league) ??  Oh, the horrors!  What would we do with a PGAT 8X bigger than they are now!!!??

 

[allenriverside]

Will be interesting to see if the Tour's TV partners force a PGA/LIV pairing. Think it's safe to assume the PGA is not currently delivering on the product promised to the networks and they certainly aren't in a place to renegotiate those deals down to a lesser value. 

[allenriverside]

1 minute ago, CasualLie said:

The PGAT (a $1.5B annual revenue league) was on fast track to MLB (a $11B annual revenue league) ??  Oh, the horrors!  What would we do with a PGAT 8X bigger than they are now!!!??

 

I was referencing the MLB in terms of relevancy. If you're saying the money to compete with Liv is there with annual rev then restructure away from a 501c3 and pay the players lol 

[bscinstnct]

At least the tour has hired competent counsel,

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/pga-tours-lawsuit-response-liv-golf-players-fabricating-emergency-get-playoffs

 

“The players’ participation in the LIV league is in violation of the PGA Tour’s [handbook],” Elliot Peters, the lead counsel for the Tour in this case, said in a statement. “For enormous sums of cash supplied by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, plaintiffs willfully breached their agreements with the PGA Tour. The players’ purported harm is entirely self-induced.”

 

 

Who is Elliot Peters?

 

Elliot R. Peters is a trial attorney at San Francisco law firm Keker, Van Nest & Peters LLP, who frequently works on cases of national significance.^[1] He led the defenses of internet activist Aaron Swartz^[2][3][4] and cyclist Lance Armstrong.^[5][6] He represented the Major League Baseball Players Association in successfully challenging DOJ seizures of baseball players' drug testing records, in the seminal computer search case, United States v Comprehensive Drug Testing, 579 F.3d 989 (2009). He has also defended financier Frank Quattrone, securities litigator William Lerach and CEO Bruce Karatz.^[7] He has represented top international law firms defending malpractice claims and technology companies defending intellectual property claims. Elliot has been named Attorney of the Year in California three times, twice for freeing indigent men, serving life sentences for murder, but who were actually innocent.^[8]

 

^{https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_R._Peters}

 

 

 

 

[jgonz69]

37 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

He already showed the world how terrible of a liar he is when he said the first event was like a Ryder Cup. You don't say something that idiotic unless you already inked a deal and are swimming in the funny money. Not to mention why would they bring in a top 50 player to play a single event, when their field is fixed. 

Gooch already said he wasn’t that smart, we should believe him. 

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, BTE0816 said:

 

The suit seemed ridiculous at the time because that is how the McDonald's media team wanted it to appear. Discredit the plaintiff before the trial with late night jokes etc. She tried to settle before trial for $18k, which were her medical fees and lost wages. Once the facts came out it was never a doubt.

• 3rd degree burns
• 8 days in the hospital and skin grafts
• "fused her labia to her leg"
• 40-50 degrees above the max McD's coffee temp.

All true...

 

Great podcast on the narrative spin of that case...

 

https://soundcloud.com/epsilontheory/cursed-knowledge-5-hot-coffee

[tiderider]

1 hour ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

phil? ... sergio? ... wolff? ... westwood? ... poulter? ... stenson? ... watson? ... they're who you want to see? ... shooting 75 every round? ... 

[jplroper]

1 hour ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

      I don't think the guys you named off are that big a draw, that they can be replaced on the PGA tour.  Couple guys who are closing in on the end of their careers and a couple quirky dudes that where interesting but replaceable.

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, BTE0816 said:

 

The suit seemed ridiculous at the time because that is how the McDonald's media team wanted it to appear. Discredit the plaintiff before the trial with late night jokes etc. She tried to settle before trial for $18k, which were her medical fees and lost wages. Once the facts came out it was never a doubt.

• 3rd degree burns
• 8 days in the hospital and skin grafts
• "fused her labia to her leg"
• 40-50 degrees above the max McD's coffee temp.

 

It’s a good example of facts and details being lost in media, whether being spun or not. Apropos to the LIV vs. PGA Tour discussion.

[physasst]

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/opinion/contributors/2022/08/08/watching-liv-not-me-pga-tour-offers-real-talent-intrigue-opinion/10209775002/

 

M

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA has a Tiger problem, there was only one and they can't find another.  He grew the game by leaps and bounds and when he's done, done.  They're going to be bloated and lacking anything resembling Tiger.  They thought they had it in Rory, then Spieth, then Koepke, then Morikawa and they just don't.  They likely never will.  The LIV fight is coming at an awful time for them.

Things ebb and flow. You could argue that the PGA tour had a Jack & Arnie problem between the mid-80s to early 90's. Guys like Faldo, Price, Norman, Couples didn't capture the zeitgeist like Jack & Arnie did. Tiger was a evolutionary leap unlikely to be replicated but who's influence can be seen in nearly every young player of the last 10-20 years. A focus on power, fitness, speed and fearlessness in competing. Watching Tiger dominate in his early 20's is why guys like Rory/Speith/Morikawa/etc had the confidence that they could win as young pros. 

 

Regardless, there have been players that have approached that tipping point. Rory in 2014, Speith in 2015, Koepka in 2019. Had they kept their momentum, they would be viable heirs to the throne. I think it's short sighted to not believe that someone will eventually exceed the hype. Brady/Manning followed Montana/Elway. Some combination of Mahomes/Allen/Herbert/Borrow will follow Brady/Manning. Lebron is not Jordan but has effectively worn the crown so to speak. There may never be another Tiger, but their will be stars worthy of attention. 

 

What I truly don't understand is your assumption that the current roster of LIV players somehow threatens the PGA's search for the next great star. DJ's the best player on that tour and he's 37/38 y/o. He's closer to the end than the beginning. Koepka is no longer the cold blooded killer he once was. Maybe that's due to interest or injury, but that dude struggled to lock in on anything other than majors for his whole career. I doubt we'll see a refocused killer after already pocketing $$$ and playing in meaningless events where the only value is the purse size. Maybe Bryson could be the guy but I have my doubts. One, he's not very likable and two, I think his quest for speed/power will do the same thing to Bryson, that Tiger's military training did to his body. Difference being, Tiger was so much more talented than Bryson, that he could still compete/win despite the limitations. Seriously, who on the LIV tour has the game and charisma to be the face of golf?       

[Purple Toupee]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Yes, but with liv it doesn't work that way.

 

Lets suppose that everyone on your list wants to/decides to go play with liv.

 

Sorry, without an invite from GN you don't play.  It's as simple as that. 

 

 

 

You keep saying that, but it doesn’t appear to be true.  Justin Harding said he got in based on his world ranking, and that he has no contract with LIV.  He isn’t even in the top 100, so anyone ranked higher than him could have played if they wanted to.  I don’t know how many they would have taken, but it didn’t require a special invite from GN.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Didn't they initially ask for a meeting with the PGAT to discuss the model and how they could work together?

After they had Phil DJ etc ?  
 

you really don’t think that Greg has talked to them ?  Of course he has. He gave a list of demands , and the cover story was “ we asked for a sit down “. 
 

Furthermore. If their plan didn’t involve poaching pgaT members, then what would there be to discuss ?   I could start a pro tour tomorrow , and have no need to call monohan. Why ? Because I’m not trying to compete.  That’s my point. They came to take $ from the tour. If they intended on having a non compete saudi tour . The theres no need for discussion. I meant a non compete tour coming to the tour and saying “ here’s our plan. Not looking to step on your toes , we could schedule tv time around your events and maybe become a Eurasian feeder in time.”.  
 

eveyone knows gregs goal is the opposite 

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

You keep saying that, but it doesn’t appear to be true.  Justin Harding said he got in based on his world ranking, and that he has no contract with LIV.  He isn’t even in the top 100, so anyone ranked higher than him could have played if they wanted to.  I don’t know how many they would have taken, but it didn’t require a special invite from GN.

There is some form of invite. They only have so many spots for a shotgun. 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

Speak for yourself.  I thoroughly enjoyed the Wyndham …. Seeing a new standout win is always good. Only thing they need to change is commercials. 
 

we don’t want to see mediocrity on the weekend.  

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Speak for yourself.  I thoroughly enjoyed the Wyndham …. Seeing a new standout win is always good. Only thing they need to change is commercials. 
 

we don’t want to see mediocrity on the weekend.  

Not to mention only 2-3 of those guys are even a draw. DJ, brooks, and maybe bryson. The rest barely move the needle, which is why they exited the tour for the easy money. Watching a bunch of has beens and never beens  "battle" in a glorified exhibition is everything but entertaining. 

 

Seeing young guys battle for their card or first win is more entertaining than a bunch of 40 somethings playing hit and giggle.  What is LIVs next move, a 4 man scramble??

[aus10KC]

18 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

There is some form of invite. They only have so many spots for a shotgun. 

 

Max Homa said a month back on the NLU podcast he gets emails from LIV about playing events. Greg Norman ultimately decides who plays and doesn't play. Justin Harding was just fortunate enough that many higher ranked players had apprehension about going, now 3 events in there is apprehension about going. 

 

Totally possible Max would get declined to play in Boston, which I think has no PGA Tour event opposite of it. Maybe with a full commitment he'd get accepted. LIV isn't really transparent on this stuff.

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

What is LIVs next move, a 4 man scramble??

🤣 LIV is coming for that Good Good / Fore Play influencer money

 

Can Lee Westwood and Ian Poulter beat the Barstool hacks using nothing but a 5 Iron and Lob Wedge? Watch exclusively on Youtube, winner gets $25M sponsored by Aramco and Owen's Craft Mixers!

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, Dutch1008 said:

🤣 LIV is coming for that Good Good / Fore Play influencer money

 

Can Lee Westwood and Ian Poulter beat the Barstool hacks using nothing but a 5 Iron and Lob Wedge? Watch exclusively on Youtube, winner gets $25M sponsored by Aramco and Owen's Craft Mixers!

Peter Millar will supply matching team outfits and Taylormade will sponsor cumulative WLD-like long drive contest, brilliant 

[Purple Toupee]

28 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

There is some form of invite. They only have so many spots for a shotgun. 

Of course there is some sort of invite, you can’t just walk in off the street.  But if the world ranked 124 player got an invite, probably everyone 1 - 123 did also.  They were letting people in based on their ranking. Let’s not act like it’s some special dispensation from GN.  They wanted the highest ranked players possible.

 

 

 

[jdl]

2 hours ago, aus10KC said:

 

Maybe not another Tiger, but another player will come around with incredible natural talent, athleticism, along with the drive and focus needed to dominate the competition. 

 

Right now there is incredible parody in which no player really dominates. You'll see small stretches of great play from these guys but continued dominance from long stretches is very difficult when there isn't much separating these guys talent wise. 

 

What tour will that player play on?

I think you meant "parity"?

 

"parody" is a better description of the format LIV chooses to play. 😆

[aus10KC]

5 minutes ago, jdl said:

I think you meant "parity"?

 

"parody" is a better description of the format LIV chooses to play. 😆

 

Yes 🙂

 

And Yes

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

Of course there is some sort of invite, you can’t just walk in off the street.  But if the world ranked 124 player got an invite, probably everyone 1 - 123 did also.  They were letting people in based on their ranking. Let’s not act like it’s some special dispensation from GN.  They wanted the highest ranked players possible.

 

 

 

I’d say were saying the same thing.  
 

greg invited everyone down the list until someone said ok. 

[Purple Toupee]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I’d say were saying the same thing.  
 

greg invited everyone down the list until someone said ok. 

And that was my point.  It’s not a special invite if everyone is already invited.

[jmck]

21 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Not to mention only 2-3 of those guys are even a draw. DJ, brooks, and maybe bryson. The rest barely move the needle, which is why they exited the tour for the easy money. Watching a bunch of has beens and never beens  "battle" in a glorified exhibition is everything but entertaining. 

 

Seeing young guys battle for their card or first win is more entertaining than a bunch of 40 somethings playing hit and giggle.  What is LIVs next move, a 4 man scramble??

LIV could announce a new four man scramble format tomorrow, selling mulligans on the first tee for $100k, and the same 10 guys who’ve been on here carrying LIV’s water since day one would be on here tomorrow insisting that four man scrambles with $100k mulligans on the first tee is the bold and exciting future of professional golf.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

After they had Phil DJ etc ?  
 

you really don’t think that Greg has talked to them ?  Of course he has. He gave a list of demands , and the cover story was “ we asked for a sit down “. 
 

Furthermore. If their plan didn’t involve poaching pgaT members, then what would there be to discuss ?   I could start a pro tour tomorrow , and have no need to call monohan. Why ? Because I’m not trying to compete.  That’s my point. They came to take $ from the tour. If they intended on having a non compete saudi tour . The theres no need for discussion. I meant a non compete tour coming to the tour and saying “ here’s our plan. Not looking to step on your toes , we could schedule tv time around your events and maybe become a Eurasian feeder in time.”.  
 

eveyone knows gregs goal is the opposite 

 

So you know there was a meeting and in that meeting he gave them the list of demands?  I'm genuinely asking this because I don't know.  I haven't read it anywhere as I have ever missed it or it is speculation at this point.

 

I thought (and I could be wrong because I have read so much) was that LIV was supposed to be initially something akin to the WGC but more events instead of just the handful that the WGC have turned into.  Something along the lines of a UEFA Champions League type deal where the best of the best pro golfers were offered spots in the league that had guaranteed prizes, larger than typical purses, no cut and a limited field (sort of like the Hero World Challenge but 48 players instead of 18).

 

It would be like the playoffs except with the team aspect and the having contracts you would have the same roster of guys for a whole "LIV Season."

 

Obviously there are significant aspects of that assumption that have not occurred.  I am not sure which parts of the "original plan" as I understood it to be were able to be kept and which parts of current form LIV were the results of "Plans B, C and D."

 

Regarding poaching PGAT members, I don't think it was/is in the LIV agreement that the LIV players cannot go play PGAT or DPT events or majors.  Some are contractually obligated to play in the LIV events and have not been able to play in a conflicting PGAT or DPT event (Graeme McDowell and Irish Open comes to mind) but I don't think any of them are barred from playing in other events.  At least I haven't seen that.  Every players deal or contract may be different though.

 

I still thought at one point there was a way for the LIV League to exist alongside any of the pro tours and offer something unique and different to both golfers and watchers of golf.  Now I am not so sure.  I could have seen it as the "premier players" alternative to the lower tier PGAT events where they rarely attend.  That the money would draw them out to play in a week that they otherwise would not have.  Giving both lesser renown players an opening in a PGAT or DPT event and also giving the golf fan more viewing of golf in general and of the better players.

Edited August 8, 2022 by smashdn

[jimb]

This whole mess has me disinterested in even watching pro golf.  Greg Norman is an arrogant money grubber in my opinion and a league funded by the Saudis?  Sorry not interested in watching that at all.  I do enjoy the majors, but if they let the LIV guys in I won't watch that either.  Take the money and run, well keep running.

Edited August 8, 2022 by jimb