LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[jonsnow]

I got a call from Joey my former plumber yesterday. Said he was coming over to fix a leak in my shower. I told him I already got it fixed & reminded him when I called him earlier about it, he had told me he was working exclusively with a contractor building a new subdivision. Better money, shorter hours. So I called another plumber & moved on. He told me he is an independent contractor & has the freedom to work anywhere he wants & if I don't hire him, he's going to sue me for running a monopoly. He also said he'll be by tomorrow to see about that shower...

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, woodriff said:

Probably posted before. But this is good. If you weren’t a Dahmen fan before maybe you are now. 

 

First of all, as already mentioned, that pizza looks like a travesty. 

 

But I think the pizza example was actually a parody of Bryson's comments, not that Dahmen just pulled this out of thin air...

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/690082/bryson-provides-entirely-confused-pizza-analogy-to-describe-current-situation-between-pga-tour-and-liv/

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

There are so many instances of this happening though.  The PGAT has not been consistent in the application of this.

 

There's no legal requirement to be consistent. The fact that they granted releases for previous events doesn't mean that they must grant releases for LIV. LIV is a completely different situation than one-off tournaments that they've granted releases for in the past, so different application makes perfect sense here.  

 

If you've got Saturday night plans with your wife and she tells you that her girlfriends are all going out for Sally's birthday, and you say it's okay for her to go out with them instead of you that night, that's one thing. If the following Saturday night you again have plans and she tells you she wants to go out to a seedy motel and do the deed with Joe from work, and you tell her that you don't approve, she can't trump you by saying "that's inconsistent application!"

 

[Richsgbox]

2 hours ago, johnseg said:

Another factor is the company might have a short shelf life and unless they give you a lump sum bonus and not over time you may never see that $1M. I have a feeling that LIV is that way. The $125M that DJ got might be in installments and if LIV fails he never sees it.  Maybe they paid him $40M this year and LIV dies. If LIV dies he never sees the rest.

In all major sports, contractual obligations with "guaranteed" money are deposited into escrow accounts for the full amount.  I am sure DJ and others are well advised and this shouldn't be an issue. 

[woodriff]

7 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

First of all, as already mentioned, that pizza looks like a travesty. 

 

But I think the pizza example was actually a parody of Bryson's comments, not that Dahmen just pulled this out of thin air...

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/690082/bryson-provides-entirely-confused-pizza-analogy-to-describe-current-situation-between-pga-tour-and-liv/

Correct. Thanks for adding context. 

[bladehunter]

28 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

The monopoly aspect of the primary lawsuit would seem weak to me considering every professional sport/league globally is a monopoly. Collusion appears to be the biggest issue if the claims in the lawsuit are factual. I would be shocked if the Tour did in fact collude with the majors and the Tour’s vendors/partners. And I think everyone knows just because something appears in a lawsuit does not mean its true or valid.

Oh of course that’s why discovery is the most important part. It separates what you claim from what you can prove.

[Krt22]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

First of all, as already mentioned, that pizza looks like a travesty. 

 

But I think the pizza example was actually a parody of Bryson's comments, not that Dahmen just pulled this out of thin air...

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/690082/bryson-provides-entirely-confused-pizza-analogy-to-describe-current-situation-between-pga-tour-and-liv/

The mental gymnastics he must have performed to come up with with such a poorly formulated argument had to be wild. Literally everything but a "professor" with such lackluster reasoning skills lol

 

"What's wrong with paying customers??" lulz

[pearcebarr]

1 hour ago, physasst said:

 

So far, no player has been suspended (with the exception of Phil Mickelson) until they teed it up in a LIV event. To me, the PGA Tour has been very deliberate about that. As far as I know, Cam Smith and Mark Leishman can still play PGA UNTIL they actually tee it up and hit their first ball in a LIV event. 

M

I don't think that is true, is it? Bryson was banned in early June, and wasn't his first event Pumpkin Ridge which was late June early July? I don't think they are waiting for people to tee it up, so much as a public announcement of their signing with LIV.  

[bladehunter]

55 minutes ago, straightsixes said:

As a sales guy myself..  you need to make a more realistic analogy because it happens all the time. 
 

The international company pays you a lot more to take your US experience, credibility, and popularity/contacts to grow their product line worldwide. 
 

It requires more travel internationally doing the same thing you did at home.  It’s a pain because half the time you don’t speak the language, you can’t always take the family with you and jet lag is real. 
 

The “friends” from home complain because they can’t believe that 5x or 10x money is worth it.  At the same time they complain about their lives, whine about everything anyway, have the same job changing tires they had 20 yrs ago when they left high school because they are jealous as they never took a “chance”.   
 

Maybe your new company revolutionizes the ag/seed/equipment market internationally.  Maybe it fails but you collect your $$ along these and move on.   
 

There are the personality types that are early adapters and there are the rest who wait and see (complaining all the while).  Then in time the other personality types get over themselves and move on to use the good products anyway. 
 

Computers, cell phones, smart phones.  email, social media, round-up ready seed, Amazon etc.  we all complained early on, and now use all the time. 

 

There are other sports that have seen major shakeups (even bass fishing) as newer tours/companies try to come about.  Many fans complain at first then in a couple years it’s a non issue and they watch the “new” stuff after originally complaining.  
 

Something I hadn’t thought about until now… in these other sports the new tours are usually started by experienced (older) competitors who are either tired of being used OR think they can advance the game beyond its current limitations.  
 

Time will tell. 

You you left off the ending. The one that describes the killing of Main Street. The local food , and whole towns …

 

just because a selfish risk works  out for the immediate big fish in a small pond , doesn’t mean that the big fish or his heirs survive indefinitely.  Once all the small fish are gone , the big fish will starve. 
 

you apparently missed the parable of the wolf. Sheepdog and sheep. 

[bscinstnct]

20 hours ago, lowndes said:

If anybody is interesting in watching the proceeding tomorrow it can be done at the below link.  It will be broadcast via zoom.  Should be interesting:

 

https://www.cand.uscourts.gov/judges/freeman-beth-l-blf/

 

Its on at 1pm PT!

 

Somebody watch! 🤣

[FriedEgg]

what a clown show

[gsrjc]

44 minutes ago, jdl said:

Chuck is not going to LIV.

Okay. 

[aus10KC]

34 minutes ago, pearcebarr said:

I don't think that is true, is it? Bryson was banned in early June, and wasn't his first event Pumpkin Ridge which was late June early July? I don't think they are waiting for people to tee it up, so much as a public announcement of their signing with LIV.  

 

Again, Bryson was not banned, he was suspended. Was it for trying to actively recruit PGAT members to LIV? 

[OKMrazor]

36 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 The international company pays you a lot more to take your US experience, credibility, and popularity/contacts to grow their product line worldwide. 

 

Product is interesting, as the product serves two different purposes in this case.

 

LIV is an entity whose purpose is to use professional golf competition as a PR vehicle, not a self-sustaining, financially viable entity.  Conversely, the tour built to steward professional golf competition, it's model self-sustaining. The PGA's goals are directly intertwined with the tour player's goals, thus they are invested in each other's continued existence.  One day the Saudi's may very reasonably decide the Golf PR bus they're driving isn't worth the price of gas and decide not to fill up anymore.

 

(EDIT - quote came from straightsixes, I pulled it from bladehunter's response to them - apologies).

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by OKMrazor

[EastTNGolfer]

I guess I'm in the minority but I hope the PGA tour gets absolutely wrecked.

[jdl]

Per Golf Channel, Carlos Ortiz has removed his name from the lawsuit.

[idrive]

3 minutes ago, jdl said:

Per Golf Channel, Carlos Ortiz has removed his name from the lawsuit.

 

I think that smell he's been smelling isn't quite as sweet as he thought it was.

 

I believe some of these guys are going to end up being unhappy about their decision.  Money doesn't always buy happiness. 

[mokedaddy]

6 minutes ago, EastTNGolfer said:

I guess I'm in the minority but I hope the PGA tour gets absolutely wrecked.

I don’t hope they get wrecked but I do hope the truth comes out.  The liv isn’t a better option but the tour isn’t the squeaky clean entity people seem to think it is.  

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, mokedaddy said:

I don’t hope they get wrecked but I do hope the truth comes out.  The liv isn’t a better option but the tour isn’t the squeaky clean entity people seem to think it is.  

I think most know that, but I think most also know this is more of a publicity stunt  than an actual anti-trust case

[OKMrazor]

2 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

but I do hope the truth comes out. 

Everything everywhere must be a conspiracy, scam or front, these days.  Are you so sure "the truth" is so intentionally obfuscated or damning? Had this "truth" been gnawing at you for some time before it became the excuse of a bunch of millionaires to make more millions?

 

I don't actually mean to come off aggressive - apologies if I do - but I just don't understand why so many are so willing to believe in the darkness.

[mokedaddy]

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I think most know that, but I think most also know this is more of a publicity stunt  than an actual anti-trust case

The lawsuit seems to really be about the majors and world ranking points.  I don’t think any player really wants to come back to the tour if they get points.

[mokedaddy]

1 minute ago, OKMrazor said:

Everything everywhere must be a conspiracy, scam or front, these days.  Are you so sure "the truth" is so intentionally obfuscated or damning? Had this "truth" been gnawing at you for some time before it became the excuse of a bunch of millionaires to make more millions?

 

I don't actually mean to come off aggressive - apologies if I do - but I just don't understand why so many are so willing to believe in the darkness.

Because I spend enough time around players on the tour.

[Guest RobS]

Why do people keep saying the PGA Tour is banning players?  No one has been permanently barred from the PGA Tour, not yet at least.  Players have been suspended or have resigned to avoid suspension.

 

I think the players who signed on to the lawsuit will regret being Greg Norman's puppets in this fight. If this goes to trial,  the process could take years.  Players will be subject to discovery and will have the curtain pulled back on their personal business.  Who wants to go through intrusion even if you have nothing to hide?  Ortiz must have had second thoughts about that, subsequently pulling his name from the lawsuit.

 

Does anyone wonder why LIV didn't sue instead of or in addition to the players?  Honest question. Maybe the Saudis don't want to be subject to the US courts?  Either way, I think the players suing will suffer having to the dirty work.  I think the winner in this case will still lose and the loser just lose more.

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Great post. And it highlights one of the issues with LIV. I hold two opinions re: LIV --

 

1. That for an individual golfer, the opportunity offered by LIV is good. From a purely self-interested perspective, they get more money (higher ceiling when they win, lower floor when they don't), an easier schedule, etc. 

 

2. That for the game of professional golf--for many reasons but especially for anyone outside the 48 "top" golfers who get to play there--LIV is bad. 

 

I don't expect players not to act in their own self-interest. However, if you believe (as I do) that LIV is bad for the wider golf ecosystem, then players choosing to go there moves from self-interest to selfishness. They are accepting these benefits with the full knowledge that it's going to hurt other players and the system that produced them, and simply don't care. 

LIV Golf would not exist if basic market economics were applied. It’s only because of the funding can it be created and spend what it has on players. Even the Premier Golf League’s business model would not come anywhere close to what LIV is spending and will continue to spend.

[mitchl]

13 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

I think that smell he's been smelling isn't quite as sweet as he thought it was.

 

I believe some of these guys are going to end up being unhappy about their decision.  Money doesn't always buy happiness. 

 

 

I wonder if it is that Carlos stepped out of the LIV golf echo chamber.   Just like the tournaments are a closed event with no outside influence challenging them, the LIV golfers group being represented by Norman paid lawyers and the agents who got them into LIV to line their pockets are hearing the same thing.     

If Carlos stepped outside and talked with an independent lawyer, another agent, or a PR rep, he might have heard a different story than the Norman and Mickelson line of horse crap.   

 

He may just have chosen to enjoy his money, and the 8-14 events per year, and stay out of the fight as DJ has done.   

[OKMrazor]

2 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

Because I spend enough time around players on the tour.

Which tour? 

 

It would seem a large # don't necessarily believe as strongly as you.  Admittedly I don't know any pro golfers, but your answer really doesn't add any insight, either.

[mokedaddy]

2 minutes ago, OKMrazor said:

Which tour? 

 

It would seem a large # don't necessarily believe as strongly as you.  Admittedly I don't know any pro golfers, but your answer really doesn't add any insight, either.

The pga tour.  Because players that are staying are smart enough not to bad mouth the tour in public.

Edited August 9, 2022 by mokedaddy

[bscinstnct]

10 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

The lawsuit seems to really be about the majors and world ranking points.  I don’t think any player really wants to come back to the tour if they get points.

 

With the new owgr rules just announced, liv not looking good to get many points at all. Even the dp tour is barely getting them. 

 

I’d expect the us open, pga, and open keep allowing already exempt liv players to play. 
 

But the masters?

 

There may be a few empty seats at dinner next year. 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by bscinstnct

[aus10KC]

15 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I think most know that, but I think most also know this is more of a publicity stunt  than an actual anti-trust case

 

There is no bad press when it comes to LIV, anything to keep them in the press when they aren't having events. Why they slow roll players out ect. 

 

If Cam is a done deal, he should just say this is my last PGAT season, after the Presidents Cup I'm going to LIV. Instead we'll have to dog and pony show press conference that is uncomfortable. 

 

LIV is dumb, just say who have signed on for next year. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by aus10KC

[wedgegame]

4 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

The pga tour.  Because players that are staying are smart enough not to bad mouth the tour in public.

 

What are they upset about? If they could bad mouth the tour what would they say?  I would like to know the truth.