Underrated key to a pure shallow in my opinion

[teddyironboy]

Trail arm needs to be external all the way through impact, at the same time, lead arm needs to be internal all the way through impact. At least as a feel. At impact, the feeling really feels weird - if you make a fist with your lead hand, it should feel like you're hitting the ball with the bottom of your fist.

 

I think a lot of people, myself included, would have a nice shallow the first half of the downswing, but then we're so used to the old feeling of impact that old motions creep in. The trail arm for example, lets go of being external and overtakes a little bit.

 

Can you play with a half-shallow swing? Definitely, the results can be decent. But I think if you're going for a swing where you square the club with pure rotation, you're going to have to shallow the club from the top all the way to the bottom.

[Trippels]

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS84NzQ1NjEucnNz/episode/QnV6enNwcm91dC0xMTI5MTkzNg?hl=en-NO&ved=2ahUKEwiv5Jyiu576AhVix4sKHZYUD4gQjrkEegQIAxAF&ep=6

[teddyironboy]

- Agree that pivot doesn't do a great job of shallowing the club. When Gankas demonstrates this it seems to make sense in theory but in practice it doesn't work well for me.

- While the trail arm does go internal on the downswing, the feel is going to have to be to fight to get external. So it would be more accurate to say that instead of going external, the trail arm should try to be as little internal as possible. Here's a good demonstration of the feel: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cin7kRQJUUK/

- Watching a video of how AMG describes how to shallow, they're talking about the exaggerated rehearsals people often do as if that's how people plan to hit the golf ball. Exaggerations are necessary to make any changes. And when they critique people who get way too shallow, that only happens when you shallow but also pull down, then you have to get steep to hit the ball. If your hand path is good you probably can't really get too shallow. When you keep your trail arm minimally internal the whole way down, it helps fix any pull-down issue.

[naj959]

The late internal rotation of the trail arm is the result of an open club face and a need to stall the pivot to square it up imo. If the face is square you can just keep turning through and maintain the external rotation of the trail arm/shoulder. 

[Trippels]

21 minutes ago, naj959 said:

The late internal rotation of the trail arm is the result of an open club face and a need to stall the pivot to square it up imo. If the face is square you can just keep turning through and maintain the external rotation of the trail arm/shoulder. 

 

[naj959]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

 

Not a fan of AMG and stopped watching their content awhile ago. They pick data that fits their message. To each their own. 

[teddyironboy]

34 minutes ago, naj959 said:

Not a fan of AMG and stopped watching their content awhile ago. They pick data that fits their message. To each their own. 

 

I agree, it's interesting to see what actually happens but it's not the most practical. And I think they can send a wrong message, like saying trail arm actually goes internal - that's true but it needs to be as minimally internal as possible. Feels are far more important. That 30 second Instagram video I posted is going to help a lot more golfers than that 20 minute AMG science lesson. Also the bowed vs flat/neutral grip thing was as cherry-picked of a stat as it gets...

 

When AMG is comparing the different grips, from shaft parallel to shaft parallel, the bowed wrist has the least face rotation, but they try to argue that 12 inches before and after impact is the same because the increase is 120%. I think that’s a little disingenuous because the flat/neutral wrist is working with bigger numbers, so the increase % will be the same, but in the end the bowed wrist rotates the least pre and post impact. Let's break it down:

 

Bowed Wrist

979 to 1175 degrees/s, difference of 196

 

Flat Wrist/Neutral (basically the same)

1492 to 1790 degrees/s, difference of 298

 

I believe the bowed wrist having smaller numbers across the board is actually a great argument for a bowed wrist being more passive than the 120% increase. Does that not prove the clubface is moving slower through impact and requires less timing? Plus a bigger difference (298 vs 196) means the club is flipping faster through the ball.

 

Their point at the end, rotation and arms being most important. I feel that good arm movement will cause more rotation. More rotation does not cause good arm movement. Try to keep your trail arm minimally internal, you have no choice but to rotate. 2 birds one stone.

 

Would be interesting to further discuss this trippels instead of just replying with videos.

Edited September 18, 2022 by teddyironboy

[Trippels]

2 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

I agree, it's interesting to see what actually happens but it's not the most practical. And I think they can send a wrong message, like saying trail arm actually goes internal - that's true but it needs to be as minimally internal as possible. Feels are far more important. That 30 second Instagram video I posted is going to help a lot more golfers than that 20 minute AMG science lesson. Also the bowed vs flat/neutral grip thing was as cherry-picked of a stat as it gets...

 

When AMG is comparing the different grips, from shaft parallel to shaft parallel, the bowed wrist has the least face rotation, but they try to argue that 12 inches before and after impact is the same because the increase is 120%. I think that’s a little disingenuous because the flat/neutral wrist is working with bigger numbers, so the increase % will be the same, but in the end the bowed wrist rotates the least pre and post impact. Let's break it down:

 

Bowed Wrist

979 to 1175 degrees/s, difference of 196

 

Flat Wrist/Neutral (basically the same)

1492 to 1790 degrees/s, difference of 298

 

I believe the bowed wrist having smaller numbers across the board is actually a great argument for a bowed wrist being more passive than the 120% increase. Does that not prove the clubface is moving slower through impact and requires less timing? Plus a bigger difference (298 vs 196) means the club is flipping faster through the ball.

 

Their point at the end, rotation and arms being most important. I feel that good arm movement will cause more rotation. More rotation does not cause good arm movement. Try to keep your trail arm minimally internal, you have no choice but to rotate. 2 birds one stone.

 

Would be interesting to further discuss this @trippel instead of just replying with videos.

I only know enough to know I know nothing. Just heard about these counterpoints on this topic from AMG recently and figured it worth sharing for the thread. 

[teddyironboy]

Gotcha. Definitely gave me a lot to think about. I do feel strongly of my stance because results are really starting to show.

[northgolf]

1 hour ago, naj959 said:

Not a fan of AMG and stopped watching their content awhile ago. They pick data that fits their message. To each their own. 

These are the opinions on which I base my facts, much superior to some facts.  There are two ways to lie and get away with it: tell only some of the truth, or tell all of the truth in a way no one will believe you.

[Trippels]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

Gotcha. Definitely gave me a lot to think about. I do feel strongly of my stance because results are really starting to show.

If it works for you keep doing it, I've just seen quite a bit of information that suggest just letting the arms go in a sense is a good idea.

If you don't like AMG, here's Dr kwon giving a lesson to a korn ferry tour player. They don't talk about shallowing or staying external/minimizing internal directly, but they do talk about preventing getting stuck, letting the arms go and not opening shoulders too much. I don't think I could do this motion while trying to stay external

 

 

[teddyironboy]

Actually I did take a lesson from the teacher in my post, I was trying to hold off too much and he was telling me to let the arms go a little bit, to supinate I think is the word.  A little bit, but enough to feel it.

 

My swing was a bit different then though. Now somehow the ball can fly straight (when I do it right), even though it feels like I have zero supination (though I'm sure I do it). Could be extra bowing of the wrist. Maybe I'll post my swing tomorrow.

[teddyironboy]

I really feel like I'm not throwing at all, though I'm sure on Gears I would be. I'm pretty happy with it although I'm biased, would appreciate criticism. Just trying to hit the ball with the bottom of my fist and really get my trail external, and I feel like there's 0 pulldown, my hips/chest get open, my head releases early (before I would have to consciously do it), as well as my head not moving back at impact implying zero "hit" at the ball (FO view). All those things seem to happen as a result of just the arm feels.

Edited May 22, 2023 by teddyironboy

[Trippels]

25 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

DTL https://streamable.com/t3xgrd

FO https://streamable.com/lm0pyb

 

I really feel like I'm not throwing at all, though I'm sure on Gears I would be. I'm pretty happy with it although I'm biased, would appreciate criticism. Just trying to hit the ball with the bottom of my fist and really get my trail external, and I feel like there's 0 pulldown, my hips/chest get open, my head releases early (before I would have to consciously do it), as well as my head not moving back at impact implying zero "hit" at the ball (FO view). All those things seem to happen as a result of just the arm feels.

Looks pretty good to me, although you're certainly not making the massive external rotation move that some people try to do. Looks very nice and neutral coming down. 

[MK7Golf21]

18 hours ago, naj959 said:

Not a fan of AMG and stopped watching their content awhile ago. They pick data that fits their message. To each their own. 

 

It's kind of funny, I watched a video of theirs on the left arm related to chest and showed a gears model as the pro. I then came across a video from Milo golf showing the same thing, left arm related to chest and gears pro as their proof. It was complete opposite in terms of measurements and their message and both had gears to back it up. I should post the two videos here for laughs but will have to find them.

Edited September 19, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[teddyironboy]

4 hours ago, Trippels said:

Looks pretty good to me, although you're certainly not making the massive external rotation move that some people try to do. Looks very nice and neutral coming down. 

 

I wonder if it's a physical limitation. I made a post about this a while back, and no matter what I try I can't get close to Quinn Riley's position. I mean that is just insane. Wish I could, his swing is gorgeous: 

 

 

And actually a majority of pros aren't doing the super extreme external. But most of them, their elbow is either straight or bent in a little bit: https://imgur.com/a/MdiyldV. I'm most surprised Hovland and Niemann aren't as external as Riley's since their swings are quite modern with a lot of rotation and having a passive face. I think as long as it feels external at impact it's good enough. Going for that position could be good for exaggeration and making sure it's external, but for us mortals, trying to actually have that position is probably like chasing a unicorn.

[johnrobison]

For me this is more about the elbows together than it is about external/internal shoulder rotation. Elbows together will create tension in the shoulder and the feeling of external rotation but it's still just about elbows together. If you're prioritizing rotation/opening, as opposed to throwing your hands at the ball, you'll have to stay connected and deep which will keep you from having to steepen the club.

[Zitlow]

Shallowing is an effect not a cause. Most muscles work in opposing pairs, one side stretches the other side contracts. If you wind them into a state of tension all you have to do is relax the tension and they go back to a state of rest. 

 

When an archer prepares to shoot an arrow he pulls back the arrow creating tension in the bowstring and the bow, when he lets the arrow go the tension is released and the arrow flies to the target.

 

Most golfers try to do too much with their bodies and arms causing slack which results in a loss of tension. 

 

if they were shooting an arrow the way they swing a golf club the arrow would drop on the ground in front of their toes. 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Zitlow

[JayMas]

23 hours ago, naj959 said:

Not a fan of AMG and stopped watching their content awhile ago. They pick data that fits their message. To each their own. 

How could you watch that video and think they are doing that? The concluding message is the best swings are in the middle of the two extremes, which is exactly right.

 

However, the idea that ams emphasize body rotation too much at the expense of what their hands and arms do is very valid, and there are plenty of instructors that would agree with that. In working with Monte and seeing his posts on here, seems like he probably would too.

[JayMas]

5 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

It's kind of funny, I watched a video of theirs on the left arm related to chest and showed a gears model as the pro. I then came across a video from Milo golf showing the same thing, left arm related to chest and gears pro as their proof. It was complete opposite in terms of measurements and their message and both had gears to back it up. I should post the two videos here for laughs but will have to find them.

I'm fairly certain they are both big left arm off the chest proponents, so it would be wild if they were saying the opposite thing with data to back up both things. Would be two layers of wild.

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:30 AM, teddyironboy said:

Trail arm needs to be external all the way through impact, at the same time, lead arm needs to be internal all the way through impact. At least as a feel. At impact, the feeling really feels weird - if you make a fist with your lead hand, it should feel like you're hitting the ball with the bottom of your fist.

 

I think a lot of people, myself included, would have a nice shallow the first half of the downswing, but then we're so used to the old feeling of impact that old motions creep in. The trail arm for example, lets go of being external and overtakes a little bit.

 

Can you play with a half-shallow swing? Definitely, the results can be decent. But I think if you're going for a swing where you square the club with pure rotation, you're going to have to shallow the club from the top all the way to the bottom.

Every part of the upper body is used to square the clubface. That includes the forearms and hands. This 'pure rotation' stuff will get you in trouble. You turn and swing the clubhead up and you have to swing it down while the body makes room for it. That's why you see a lot of amateurs who sling it behind them in the takeaway because they forget the up part. 

[MK7Golf21]

40 minutes ago, JayMas said:

I'm fairly certain they are both big left arm off the chest proponents, so it would be wild if they were saying the opposite thing with data to back up both things. Would be two layers of wild.

 

I'd have to find the videos, I literally watched them back to back long time ago so it was funny to me. Milo was saying the left arm gets closer in transition/the angle reduces and then comes off chest right after that like being flung off the chest, I have heard AMG say the same thing. However, this might of been an old video by AMG or something but they said the angle increases right away in transition and showed some gears model.

[Ross_Albatross]

9 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

And actually a majority of pros aren't doing the super extreme external. But most of them, their elbow is either straight or bent in a little bit: https://imgur.com/a/MdiyldV. I'm most surprised Hovland and Niemann aren't as external as Riley's since their swings are quite modern with a lot of rotation and having a passive face. I think as long as it feels external at impact it's good enough. Going for that position could be good for exaggeration and making sure it's external, but for us mortals, trying to actually have that position is probably like chasing a unicorn.

I guess it goes to show that - more than late (P6ish) trail shoulder external rotation (most guys are pretty neutral) - it’s more of a combo of good right side bend and trail arm supinating… that enables, good shaft lean, aggressive pivot and lesser rate of closure in the impact zone

[teddyironboy]

9 hours ago, JayMas said:

How could you watch that video and think they are doing that? The concluding message is the best swings are in the middle of the two extremes, which is exactly right.

 

However, the idea that ams emphasize body rotation too much at the expense of what their hands and arms do is very valid, and there are plenty of instructors that would agree with that. In working with Monte and seeing his posts on here, seems like he probably would too.

 

Their advice of shallowing as "just bring your arms down as you rotate", like no way that's going to work for most people. I really believe the optimal golf swing is complex and very unnatural feeling, but it's something that can be trained to feel natural. Can't just simplify it like that.

 

 

9 hours ago, JayMas said:

I'm fairly certain they are both big left arm off the chest proponents, so it would be wild if they were saying the opposite thing with data to back up both things. Would be two layers of wild.

 

What is the left arm off chest thing? Having left arm glued to the chest on downswing does make it a lot harder to get the lead arm internal.

 

 

8 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Every part of the upper body is used to square the clubface. That includes the forearms and hands. This 'pure rotation' stuff will get you in trouble. You turn and swing the clubhead up and you have to swing it down while the body makes room for it. That's why you see a lot of amateurs who sling it behind them in the takeaway because they forget the up part. 

 

Pure rotation doesn't mean the upper body isn't doing anything, it's more keeping the arms as passive as possible, so it feels like pure rotation. I also see it as having zero jabbing at the ball, more just swinging through. A tell of that is head going to the right at impact (golfer's point of view).  You can really in this swing FO view: https://www.instagram.com/p/CanMrX7jxlY/

[Hilts1969]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:08 AM, teddyironboy said:

 

Their advice of shallowing as "just bring your arms down as you rotate", like no way that's going to work for most people. I really believe the optimal golf swing is complex and very unnatural feeling, but it's something that can be trained to feel natural. Can't just simplify it like that.

 

 

 

What is the left arm off chest thing? Having left arm glued to the chest on downswing does make it a lot harder to get the lead arm internal.

 

 

 

Pure rotation doesn't mean the upper body isn't doing anything, it's more keeping the arms as passive as possible, so it feels like pure rotation. I also see it as having zero jabbing at the ball, more just swinging through. A tell of that is head going to the right at impact (golfer's point of view).  You can really in this swing FO view: https://www.instagram.com/p/CanMrX7jxlY/

 

His arms are moving loads and because he shallows a lot they are working more circular pulling his body around with them. 

 

One would need to ask him what he feels. 

[teddyironboy]

 

This is almost exactly what I am feeling. His master move, left arm way higher and holding it as long as possible. Also Moe was a left-arm dominant player, and I noticed the other day it's a lot easier to get the arms moving correctly when focusing on just the lead arm. Get your watch on your lead wrist pointed at the sky, and pull across like crazy. The trail arm is just along for the ride.

[Krt22]

How do you differentiate between a pure shallow and an impure shallow... or shall we call it a dirty shallow? 

[teddyironboy]

Impure is one that has pulldown and more flip than there should be.

[Krt22]

How is a pulldown even considered a shallow, even an "impure" one, that is a steepening move

[Zitlow]

Easy, an impure shallow doesn't include the motorcycle move. 😐