Underrated key to a pure shallow in my opinion

[teddyironboy]

31 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

How is a pulldown even considered a shallow, even an "impure" one, that is a steepening move

 

I know, that's what I'm saying. Well I just say "than there should be" because someone is going to be like "wElL aCkShUaLlY oN GeArS tHeRe'S 5 MiLliMeTeRs Of PuLlDoWn..."

 

I've already wrote in this thread the feel/shallow should be all the way through the downswing, not shallow the first half and then jab at the ball. Nor is it stall, late shallow to flip but we all know that one is wrong.

Edited September 28, 2022 by teddyironboy

[Dufferonius]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:47 PM, naj959 said:

The late internal rotation of the trail arm is the result of an open club face and a need to stall the pivot to square it up imo. If the face is square you can just keep turning through and maintain the external rotation of the trail arm/shoulder. 

Fascinating comment, to me, because I think this is one problem I'm having with my downswing.

 

I've been taking on-line training.  It's gone well.  They've taught micro-motions and had me stitch them together to create full motions.  But now we're down to downswing and I'm getting stuck.  I can get the shallowing move on the pivot-down.  Stop.  Straighten my trail arm.  Stop.  Resume pivot.  And, providing I hadn't over-straightened my right arm the club head ends-up right where it should and everything looks good.

 

But, when I try to put it all together, even in really slow motion, it all falls apart.  One thing that happens nearly every time, even if I do manage a straighten, rather than pulling the club down, is I stall my hips.

 

They demonstrate an alternate shallowing move that involves straightening the trail arm during the pivot-down, instead of the club "naturally" shallowing.  I tried it a few times and it seemed to work for me.  But, when I sent my coach a video, he told me it was no good.  When I pointed-out, in screen grabs, my position at about P5 was about the same as his in the training video, he responded they're deprecating the "manual shallowing" move because few students could get it right.

 

Perhaps I'm an exception?  I'm going to try that move again today.  Because what he's trying to get me to do just ain't workin' for me.

 

I may end up in an argument with my coach 🤣

Edited September 28, 2022 by Dufferonius

[teddyironboy]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CiLjoOqg_Yw

https://www.instagram.com/p/CiOJaCJAOV1

[golfarb1]

Although some golfers shallow very late ( like Gary Woodland )

most shallow in transition , where the trail elbow MOVES FASTER  than the hands and consequently changes the angle  of the trail forearm 

Notice the the difference in Lucas Glovers trail forearm 

 

[Ross_Albatross]

6 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Although some golfers shallow very late ( like Gary Woodland )

most shallow in transition , where the trail elbow MOVES FASTER  than the hands and consequently changes the angle  of the trail forearm 

Notice the the difference in Lucas Glovers trail forearm 

 

Humerus forward!

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Humerus forward!

Yes, 

The HEAD  of the humerus articulates ( connects) with the lateral depression of the glenoid cavity of the scapula to form the glenohumeral joint above,  while the other end( distal ) end  of humerus connects with the ulnar and radius bones of the forearm to form the elbow joint. 
Consequently , any movements of the head of the humerus within the shoulder joint MUST also be reflected in similar movements at the elbow joint . Thus, external rotation of rotation of shoulder , which rotates the head of the humerus will also rotate the elbow “ forward”.

 

 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

17 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Yes, 

The HEAD  of the humerus articulates ( connects) with the lateral depression of the glenoid cavity of the scapula to form the glenohumeral joint above,  while the other end( distal ) end  of humerus connects with the ulnar and radius bones of the forearm to form the elbow joint. 
Consequently , any movements of the head of the humerus within the shoulder joint MUST also be reflected in similar movements at the elbow joint . Thus, external rotation of rotation of shoulder , which rotates the head of the humerus will also rotate the elbow “ forward”.

 

 

 

 

I totally get it now.  That really simplifies things.  PGA tour here I come.  

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

I totally get it now.  That really simplifies things.  PGA tour here I come.  

The important point is that the trail elbow is the “marker “for trail shoulder external rotation which will cause the trail elbow to move more and faster than the hands forward toward the target line in early transition . Doing so will also change the angle of the trail forearm between the start and end of transition 

Edited September 29, 2022 by golfarb1

[wagolfer7]

5 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

The important point is that the trail elbow is the “marker “for trail shoulder external rotation which will cause the trail elbow to move faster than hands forward toward the target line in early transition . Doing so will also change the angle of the trail forearm by

 

I'm not smart enough to follow your posts.  I like to play golf - jumping into human anatomy, physics, human psyche with neural pathways, etc. is not my style.  To each their own, but focusing on individual body parts never got me anywhere.    

 

 

[golfarb1]

23 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I'm not smart enough to follow your posts.  I like to play golf - jumping into human anatomy, physics, human psyche with neural pathways, etc. is not my style.  To each their own, but focusing on individual body parts never got me anywhere.    

 

 

Then just  look at the pictures of Lucas Glover 

His Trail elbow has moved forward  more than his hands -his forearm has become more vertical as a result 

This has happened NOT in isolation but immediately after he has initiated his downswing via weighting his left foot . 

 

That combination move 

1. Weighting the lead foot 

2. Moving the trail elbow more forward towards the target line 

are the keys to shallowing the shaft and the 

correct right elbow move

 

To simulate this  trail elbow 

hit balls with a soft soccer ball between your elbows AND pressure the ball via pressing into the ball with your trail elbow in transition 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

4 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Then just  look at the pictures of Lucas Glover 

His Trail elbow has moved forward  more than his hands -his forearm has become more vertical as a result 

This has happened NOT in isolation but immediately after he has initiated his downswing via weighting his left foot . 

 

That combination move 

1. Weighting the lead foot 

2. Moving the trail elbow more forward towards the target line 

are the keys to shallowing the shaft and the 

correct right elbow move

 

To simulate this  trail elbow 

hit balls with a soft soccer ball between your elbows AND pressure the ball via pressing into the ball with your trail elbow in transition 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All good @golfarb1.  This is not how I learn or believe how things should be taught.  Just my opinion, I know a lot of guys want to have the "knowledge" to fully understand how and why things work.  But I don't see a lot of improvement in scores when guys go down this path often.    

[ChipDriver]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:30 AM, teddyironboy said:

Trail arm needs to be external all the way through impact, at the same time, lead arm needs to be internal all the way through impact. At least as a feel. At impact, the feeling really feels weird - if you make a fist with your lead hand, it should feel like you're hitting the ball with the bottom of your fist.

 

I think a lot of people, myself included, would have a nice shallow the first half of the downswing, but then we're so used to the old feeling of impact that old motions creep in. The trail arm for example, lets go of being external and overtakes a little bit.

 

Can you play with a half-shallow swing? Definitely, the results can be decent. But I think if you're going for a swing where you square the club with pure rotation, you're going to have to shallow the club from the top all the way to the bottom.

 

 

FWIW I learned an easy way to shallow the club.  Using a hockey stick with a golf grip (hands together, not apart) Swing the hockey stick like a golf club.   Generally you're going to hit it fat, and it can be painful.   The key to swinging the hockey stick "level" (so that it doesn't hit the ground fat) is to allow the club to shallow behind you.  If you use too much trailing hand it's no bueno.

 

For me the key "feel" was that on the downswing as your lower body opens, you feel like you're rotating the face slightly open/parallel with the ground thereby feeling like you are holding the face of the hockey stick open towards the sky as you pull your left hip back away from the target line.   If your arms are relaxed, you feel like the left arm is on top or the right arm...and the face of the club feels wide open, but trust it - it will close for sure at impact.  However, by doing so the stick/club shallows...and you get a sick little burst of additional club head speed.

[Nard_S]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:54 AM, teddyironboy said:

DTL https://streamable.com/t3xgrd

FO https://streamable.com/lm0pyb

 

I really feel like I'm not throwing at all, though I'm sure on Gears I would be. I'm pretty happy with it although I'm biased, would appreciate criticism.

Your shoulder is glued to head for too long. Drop and move it away faster and quicker. This is a huge impediment to "getting shallow". 

[Hilts1969]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:34 PM, teddyironboy said:

 

This is almost exactly what I am feeling. His master move, left arm way higher and holding it as long as possible. Also Moe was a left-arm dominant player, and I noticed the other day it's a lot easier to get the arms moving correctly when focusing on just the lead arm. Get your watch on your lead wrist pointed at the sky, and pull across like crazy. The trail arm is just along for the ride.

 

Haha no hip movement. Us golfers and our feels:-)

[Hilts1969]

On 9/28/2022 at 4:50 PM, Krt22 said:

How is a pulldown even considered a shallow, even an "impure" one, that is a steepening move

 

You can pull and shallow if you move your wrists correctly. I think it may have been AMG who said we are ultimately in control of the club and at the end of the day it's your hands that control the shaft and therefore it's pitch and clubface orientation.

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

You can pull and shallow if you move your wrists correctly. I think it may have been AMG who said we are ultimately in control of the club and at the end of the day it's your hands that control the shaft and therefore it's pitch and clubface orientation.

It is important to demarcate between “Body” shallowing moves and” arm “shallowing moves 

Arm shallowing moves ( either lead forearm pronation or trail shoulder external rotation ) rotate the shaft so that it is MORE HORIZONTAL RELATIVE to the torso

Body shallowing moves like lateral movement or dipping the trail shoulder or trail sided bend can not .Arm shallowing moves increase the horizontal distance between clubhead and the hands . 
And as I have mentioned innumerable times , the wrists are capable of changing the orientation of the clubface -more open or more closed but are anatomically INCAPABLE of rotating  the shaft so that it more horizontal relative to the body .

Some on this forum mischaracterize  the wrist movements as shallowing.  YES, often extension /flexion of the wrists accompany arm shallowing moves , but it is the arm movements which shallow the shaft and NOT wrist movements 

[Hilts1969]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:12 PM, golfarb1 said:

It is important to demarcate between “Body” shallowing moves and” arm “shallowing moves 

Arm shallowing moves ( either lead forearm pronation or trail shoulder external rotation ) rotate the shaft so that it is MORE HORIZONTAL RELATIVE to the torso

Body shallowing moves like lateral movement or dipping the trail shoulder or trail sided bend can not .Arm shallowing moves increase the horizontal distance between clubhead and the hands . 
And as I have mentioned innumerable times , the wrists are capable of changing the orientation of the clubface -more open or more closed but are anatomically INCAPABLE of rotating  the shaft so that it more horizontal relative to the body .

Some on this forum mischaracterize  the wrist movements as shallowing.  YES, often extension /flexion of the wrists accompany arm shallowing moves , but it is the arm movements which shallow the shaft and NOT wrist movements 

 

The body pivot part I will bypass as I didn't mention it. With regards the wrists they have a certain range of motion. A good amount flexion and extension a little ulnar and hardly any radial. Now you can hinge your wrists up and down easily without moving the forearm.

 

If however you move your wrists in a certain direction using perceived ulnar quite quickly the forearm becomes involved. Do you have to try and move the forearm? No. Is it easier to try and move the wrists and let the forearm part happen? I would say yes.

 

Sometimes the forum falls into pedantry and an example could be

 

Instructor to student 

 

I want you to throw the clubhead in that direction

 

I can't I have no control of the clubhead I'm not holding it

 

Okay throw the shaft in that direction

 

I can't I don't hold onto the shaft if you mean the metal part of club

 

Okay throw the grip in that direction using your hands 

 

I  can certainly start in that direction but notice how my forearm moves and you didn't mention them

 

Sorry that's the end of the lesson and I retire today so you will need to find another instructor. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Hilts1969

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

The body pivot part I will bypass as I didn't mention it. With regards the wrists they have a certain range of motion. A good amount flexion and extension a little ulnar and hardly any radial. Now you can hinge your wrists up and down easily without moving the forearm.

 

If however you move your wrists in a certain direction using perceived ulnar quite quickly the forearm becomes involved. Do you have to try and move the forearm? No. Is it easier to try and move the wrists and let the forearm part happen? I would say yes.

 

Sometimes the forum falls into pedantry and an example could be

 

Instructor to student 

 

I want you to throw the clubhead in that direction

 

I can't I have no control of the clubhead I'm not holding it

 

Okay throw the shaft in that direction

 

I can't I don't hold onto the shaft if you mean the metal part of club

 

Okay throw the grip in that direction using your hands 

 

I  can certainly start in that direction but notice how my forearm moves and you didn't mention them

 

Sorry that's the end of the lesson and I retire today so you will need to find another instructor. 

Included below are charts of top players  from Mr Cheethams  doctoral study .

Blue line is pronation/ supination

Green line is extension/ flexion

Red line  is radial deviation / ulnar deviation .

 

Top golfers radial deviate their wrists during much of their  backswing ( downward sloping line) Their wrists stay in radial deviation  and do not ulnar deviate until LATE in the downswing -the release zone .( upward sloping line ) . 

 

Too golfers pronate their left forearm starting at the .25sec mark and continue to do so until about the top. Pronation is one of the two arm movements which shallow the shaft . The other( trail shoulder external rotation )  is NOT shown on these graphs . 

The vast majority of top golfers shallow the shaft by the end of transition ( 9:00 going down) with some exceptions like Gary Woodland. 
 

Given that ulnar deviation ( red line) does not happen until very late in the downswing , when it is coincident with SUPINATION ( blue line ) , it is NOT possible for ulnar deviation to be a factor in shallowing the shaft earlier .

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by golfarb1

[Ross_Albatross]

18 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Included below are charts of top players  from Mr Cheethams  doctoral study .

Blue line is pronation/ supination

Green line is extension/ flexion

Red line  is radial deviation / ulnar deviation .

 

Too golfers pronate their left forearm starting at the .25sec mark and continue to do so until about the top. Pronation is one of the two arm movements which shallow the shaft . The other( trail shoulder external rotation )  is NOT shown on these graphs . 

 

Don't want to hijack the thread on shallowing... but interested in a side discussion on pronation/supination, especially at address - as I've been thinkering with this from time to time... I'm guessing the amount of supination at the start is related to grip (strong/weak) - but how would 25* look for a fairly neutral grip : lead elbow pointing more toward target? the ground?... and I'm pretty sure this amount has an effect on how 'fast' or 'early' the lead arm begins to pronate, right?

[Hilts1969]

21 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Included below are charts of top players  from Mr Cheethams  doctoral study .

Blue line is pronation/ supination

Green line is extension/ flexion

Red line  is radial deviation / ulnar deviation .

 

Top golfers radial deviate their wrists during much of their  backswing ( downward sloping line) Their wrists stay in radial deviation  and do not ulnar deviate until LATE in the downswing -the release zone .( upward sloping line ) . 

 

Too golfers pronate their left forearm starting at the .25sec mark and continue to do so until about the top. Pronation is one of the two arm movements which shallow the shaft . The other( trail shoulder external rotation )  is NOT shown on these graphs . 

The vast majority of top golfers shallow the shaft by the end of transition ( 9:00 going down) with some exceptions like Gary Woodland. 
 

Given that ulnar deviation ( red line) does not happen until very late in the downswing , when it is coincident with SUPINATION ( blue line ) , it is NOT possible for ulnar deviation to be a factor in shallowing the shaft earlier .

 

 

 

I cant be bothered going into when something happens and when you feel it, its been done to death on this forum.

[Ross_Albatross]

8 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I cant be bothered going into when something happens and when you feel it, its been done to death on this forum.

That... and also the quick lapse between your intent and when it's really happening... good luck trying to time: 'I'll think about ulnar when I get to P6 and do it before impact'

[Trippels]

17 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

That... and also the quick lapse between your intent and when it's really happening... good luck trying to time: 'I'll think about ulnar when I get to P6 and do it before impact'

If you wait to shoot the duck when it's in your sights then you end up with a laughing dog.

[golfarb1]

Any golfer who contacts the ball , ANY GOLFER no matter the handicap , MUST ulnar deviate or the clubhead will pass over the ball 
There is absolutely ZERO  reason to have to think about ulnar deviation 

[Dufferonius]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Any golfer who contacts the ball , ANY GOLFER no matter the handicap , MUST ulnar deviate or the clubhead will pass over the ball.

Assuming they radial deviate on the backswing, no?

[Nard_S]

Maybe not a good idea to overstate roll of hands or wrists in shallowing. What you do with rest of body matters as much or maybe even more.

[Hilts1969]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:02 AM, Nard_S said:

Maybe not a good idea to overstate roll of hands or wrists in shallowing. What you do with rest of body matters as much or maybe even more.

 

As you don’t want to shallow with your body I think discussing it with the arms hands wrists is a good idea tbh 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

As you don’t want to shallow with your body I think discussing it with the arms hands wrists is a good idea tbh 

 Putting the club on right path starts with putting body parts on right path. Hands & wrists are just a piece of the solution.

 

I wasted inordinate amount of time with hand/wrist thing. If rest of body is doing the wrong thing, it will not make any lasting difference.

[Hilts1969]

9 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

 Putting the club on right path starts with putting body parts on right path. Hands & wrists are just a piece of the solution.

 

I wasted inordinate amount of time with hand/wrist thing. If rest of body is doing the wrong thing, it will not make any lasting difference.

 

You need both working, the constant argument pivot or arms hands is tedious. 

[teddyironboy]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:37 AM, Nard_S said:

Your shoulder is glued to head for too long. Drop and move it away faster and quicker. This is a huge impediment to "getting shallow". 

 

Thanks for the feedback. I don't understand what that could look like though.

[Nard_S]

9 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I don't understand what that could look like though.

Watch Pro's. The lead shoulder drops a bit and moves away toward target and away from head. We hang on, all welded then yank back, that's not good rotation

 

Go to 2 min mark, watch relation of head to lead. That's not what you are doing. I used JT here but it could be any of them.