Ryder/President Cup Idea

[mat562]

1 hour ago, Dill Pickleson said:

I completely understand your point, but at least that's the same continent, the President's cup international team's countries have no relevance.

 

I see what you're driving at, but I'm English. I'm also half-Norwegian, so I have a natural affinity with the Scandinavian nations, but I consider myself to have more in common with Australia, New Zealand and Canada - even South Africa - than I do with France or Spain, and pretty much all of continental Europe, when it comes to forming a team with some genuine camaraderie. For a long time, I've looked around, seen what's happening, read the newspapers and listened to the relentless soundbites, and wondered what's what when it comes to the notion of Europe.

 

Political talk is banned on the forums, but you see where I'm going with this. The whole continental esprit de corps that's loudly referenced every two years is overplayed in my opinion. It's something people who aren't European think is an enduring 'thing' in Europe. I've never once described myself as European when I've been asked where I'm from. A Carolinian or Floridian has more in common with a Nebraskan or an Alaskan than a lot of people from European nations consider themselves to have with other Europeans. Then again, I'm not pegging it up in Italy next year, so it's all perhaps a moot point. The players have long managed to come together, which is all that matters from the perspective of the Ryder Cup.

 

The inclusion of European players in the Ryder Cup was a master stroke, to be sure, but while it's been a productive alliance on the golf course over the last 40 years, a lot of people will be scratching their head when it comes to the notion that it's a natural alliance. A lot of Europeans don't consider Europe to be a tangible entity any more than Russians, Jordanians or Vietnamese consider Asia to be the same.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by mat562

[Dill Pickleson]

38 minutes ago, mat562 said:

 

I see what you're driving at, but I'm English. I'm also half-Norwegian, so I have a natural affinity with the Scandinavian nations, but I consider myself to have more in common with Australia, New Zealand and Canada - even South Africa - than I do with France or Spain, and pretty much all of continental Europe, when it comes to forming a team with some genuine camraderie. For a long time, I've looked around, seen what's happening, read the newspapers and listened to the relentless soundbites, and wondered what's what when it comes to the notion of Europe.

 

Political talk is banned on the forums, but you see where I'm going with this. The whole continental esprit de corps that's loudly referenced every two years is overplayed in my opinion. It's something people who aren't European think is an enduring 'thing' in Europe. I've never once described myself as European when I've been asked where I'm from. A Carolinian or Floridian has more in common with a Nebraskan or an Alaskan than a lot of people from European nations consider themselves to have with other Europeans. Then again, I'm not pegging it up in Italy next year, so it's all perhaps a moot point. The players have long managed to come together, which is all that matters from the perspective of the Ryder Cup.

 

The inclusion of European players in the Ryder Cup was a master stroke, to be sure, but while it's been a productive alliance on the golf course over the last 40 years, a lot of people will be scratching their head when it comes to the notion that it's a natural alliance. A lot of Europeans don't consider Europe to be a tangible entity any more than Russians, Jordanians or Vietnamese consider Asia to be the same.

 

 

I didn't realize people from Europe felt so little camaraderie.  I stand corrected.

[Guest RobS]

9 hours ago, iBanesto said:

I'm for a mixed team Presidents Cup format.

 

- Jin Young Ko 🇰🇷

- Minjee Lee 🇦🇺

- Lydia Ko 🇳🇿

- Atthaya Thitikul 🇹🇭

- Brooke Henderson 🇨🇦

- In Gee Chun 🇰🇷

 

That is some international team.

I agree on this.  The Ryder Cup is fine as is even with the pro golf shake up.  The Presidents Cup has never really been competitive.  That immediately changes if it becomes a coed event with the strength and depth of the women on both sides of the draw.

[golfandfishing]

I didn’t read the whole thread, but what if they tie?

[mat562]

19 minutes ago, Dill Pickleson said:

I didn't realize people from Europe felt so little camaraderie.  I stand corrected.

 

To be fair, I wouldn't go that far. It's probably more accurate to say that you've read one man's opinion.

 

To paraphrase the BBC's oft-repeated line, other opinions are avaiable. 🙂

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by mat562

[avrag]

6 hours ago, mat562 said:

Ryder Cup though.

 

England and Scotland. England and Ireland. France and England. Germany and England. Spain and England (technically, Gibraltar). Northern Ireland - at least a big chunk of it - and England. Sweden are now a pariah. Italy will be soon...

 

It did not matter, whether the European players came from different countries with problematic relationshsips in the past. If you wanted to go really deep into the past, Spain and England had the most prblematic realtionshsip, not only technically because of Gibraltar.
But it did not matter, because the driving force behind Europe's Ryder Cup performance used to be to show the Americans that players who come from the European Tour can play as well. The cameraderie came from this goal. This aspect is gone anyway. The last generation of players, for whom this was important, is gone now, so I don't expect Europe to win any Ryder Cups in the future.

[avrag]

5 hours ago, mat562 said:

A lot of Europeans don't consider Europe to be a tangible entity

 

I do, and Beethoven's Ode to Joy gives me goosebumps, but I see that it is different for English people.

[mat562]

7 minutes ago, avrag said:

...the driving force behind Europe's Ryder Cup performance used to be to show the Americans that players who come from the European Tour can play as well. The cameraderie came from this goal.

 

I agree with you. This feeling very much underpinned the success of the European Team from the mid 1980s onwards, when the Ryder Cup was essentially the 'underdog' European Tour against the perceived might of the PGA Tour. Yes, players like Seve, Faldo, Lyle and Langer would play some of their season over in the US, but it was fundamentally a chance to show the Americans that the European Tour wasn't a mickey mouse outfit, and that its players weren't the second class citizens that many thought they were. Sadly, I think those days are gone now, with the advent of so many big name players from Europe now playing full time, or predominantly in the US - as well as, in many cases, making their home there. There isn't the same burning desire to give the other bloke a bloody nose.

 

 

[mahonie]

12 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

It did not matter, whether the European players came from different countries with problematic relationshsips in the past. If you wanted to go really deep into the past, Spain and England had the most prblematic realtionshsip, not only technically because of Gibraltar.
But it did not matter, because the driving force behind Europe's Ryder Cup performance used to be to show the Americans that players who come from the European Tour can play as well. The cameraderie came from this goal. This aspect is gone anyway. The last generation of players, for whom this was important, is gone now, so I don't expect Europe to win any Ryder Cups in the future.

I read somewhere, and I think it may have come from caddie Billy Foster, that when Seve was first making some waves in the US, a US journalist insisted on calling him 'Steve' and Seve hated it to the point that he saw it as his mission to make the US pay on the course. His desire for winning the Ryder Cup came from that and he dragged the rest of Europe with him. I'm not sure Jack knew what he was letting the US in for when he facilitated Seve and Europe's involvement!

 

I think a lot of the camaraderie in the European team came from them socialising during and between tournaments, travelling together and being mates unless they were on the course competing against each other. US has rarely had that until the current generation and I guess as most of the top Europeans are playing in the US now, they are more friendly with their erstwhile opponents.

 

 

[mat562]

It's long been the case that the European Tour has had a famously collegiate atmosphere, with players socialising together, staying in the same hotels, and often travelling together between events - all of which gave rise to a wonderful camaraderie and team spirit. The cosmopolitan nature of the tour, with many nationalities represented, many languages spoken and the disparate locations in which events have been held over the last fifty years has added to the mix. It was a perfect melting pot for the early Ryder Cup years, and in my opinion was one of the reasons that European teams gelled so well and, arguably, and in the nicest possible way, why so many of the supposed 'rank and file' members of the European teams of the 80s and 90s teams performed beyond expectations.

 

As you rightly point out, Seve was a talisman, a figurehead, the likes of whom we'll likely never see replicated. Throw him in with the perfect partner in Olazabal, and, well, you know the rest. McIlroy is a dynamic and galvanising figure, but for Seve you'd have charged a machine gun nest if he stared into your eyes and told you had to do it to win.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by mat562

[mahonie]

20 minutes ago, mat562 said:

It's long been the case that the European Tour has had a famously collegiate atmosphere, with players socialising together, staying in the same hotels, and often travelling together between events - all of which gave rise to a wonderful camaraderie and team spirit. The cosmopolitan nature of the tour, with many nationalities represented, many languages spoken and the disparate locations in which events have been held over the last fifty years has added to the mix. It was a perfect melting pot for the early Ryder Cup years, and in my opinion was one of the reasons that European teams gelled so well and, arguably, and in the nicest possible way, why so many of the supposed 'rank and file' members of the European teams of the 80s and 90s teams performed beyond expectations.

 

As you rightly point out, Seve was a talisman, a figurehead, the likes of whom we'll likely never see replicated. Throw him in with the perfect partner in Olazabal, and, well, you know the rest. McIlroy is a dynamic and galvanising figure, but for Seve you'd have charged a machine gun nest if he stared into your eyes and told you had to do it to win.

 

 

 

Seve (and Faldo were my heroes) got me into golf in the first place and I still get a lump in my throat thinking about Ollie breaking down at Medinah.

[tboh]

Still think it should go Ryder then Pres then Eur vs Int (name?) ... I'm from the US but the same faces every year gets old

[golfortennis]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:31 PM, Dill Pickleson said:

What is the point of the presidents cup anyway, is it just togive players outside of Europe/USA a chance to play in a Ryder Cup style event.  keep someone else from making cash on a Ryder Cup alternative.

 

FTFY.

 

This thing is a cash grab, plain and simple.  They couch it like you put it, but the Ryder Cup got big, brought in a boat load of cash to the PGAoA, and so the PGAT created this in about 4 seconds to preempt someone else from getting in there first.  

[eugkim]

Won't ever happen. First, if the US isn't involved, there won't be any interest from the networks. Secondly, why would the PGA of America have any interest in watering down their event? The PGA Tour created the President's Cup to try and grab a piece of the pie. 

 

[Dave230]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:56 PM, mat562 said:

 

If only it did.

 

They'd be fielding McIlroy, Hovland, Fitzpatrick, Hatton and Fleetwood this week. And we'd have a game on.

 

 

 

Ha well Brexit is already divisive enough for Northern Ireland without making McIlroy choose between the EU and non-EU team like that! Especially when you consider the Golfing Union of Ireland is an all-island body and McIlroy represented Ireland in the Olympics. 

[Dave230]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:56 PM, mat562 said:

 

If only it did.

 

They'd be fielding McIlroy, Hovland, Fitzpatrick, Hatton and Fleetwood this week. And we'd have a game on.

 

 

 

Ha well Brexit is already divisive enough for Northern Ireland without making McIlroy choose between the EU and non-EU team like that! Especially when you consider the Golfing Union of Ireland is an all-island body and McIlroy represented Ireland in the Olympics. 

[Johnnypenso]

Scrap this format completely. Make it a mixed event. Invite the top 8 or 12 or 16 countries in terms of OWGR rankings. Then do a World Cup style elimination with 2 groups of 4/6/8. Could do singles, alternate shot where men have to tee off on 9 holes and women on 9 holes etc.

[iBanesto]

10 hours ago, mat562 said:

It's long been the case that the European Tour has had a famously collegiate atmosphere, with players socialising together, staying in the same hotels, and often travelling together between events - all of which gave rise to a wonderful camaraderie and team spirit. The cosmopolitan nature of the tour, with many nationalities represented, many languages spoken and the disparate locations in which events have been held over the last fifty years has added to the mix. It was a perfect melting pot for the early Ryder Cup years, and in my opinion was one of the reasons that European teams gelled so well and, arguably, and in the nicest possible way, why so many of the supposed 'rank and file' members of the European teams of the 80s and 90s teams performed beyond expectations.

 

As you rightly point out, Seve was a talisman, a figurehead, the likes of whom we'll likely never see replicated. Throw him in with the perfect partner in Olazabal, and, well, you know the rest. McIlroy is a dynamic and galvanising figure, but for Seve you'd have charged a machine gun nest if he stared into your eyes and told you had to do it to win.

 

 

 

 

The greatest pairing in golf, Ballesteros and Olazabal.

 

🇪🇸

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by iBanesto

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 9/24/2022 at 6:02 AM, mat562 said:

 

Political talk is banned on the forums, but you see where I'm going with this. The whole continental esprit de corps that's loudly referenced every two years is overplayed in my opinion. It's something people who aren't European think is an enduring 'thing' in Europe. I've never once described myself as European when I've been asked where I'm from. A Carolinian or Floridian has more in common with a Nebraskan or an Alaskan than a lot of people from European nations consider themselves to have with other Europeans. Then again, I'm not pegging it up in Italy next year, so it's all perhaps a moot point. The players have long managed to come together, which is all that matters from the perspective of the Ryder Cup.

 

 

23 hours ago, Dill Pickleson said:

I didn't realize people from Europe felt so little camaraderie.  I stand corrected.

 

I think the camaraderie is not about affinity for each other, but rather about one common goal--beating the pants off the Americans. 

 

I don't think either the Euros or the Internationals would care nearly as much about playing each other in a Ryder Cup as they do for the chance to embarrass the American players. 

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

I think the camaraderie is not about affinity for each other, but rather about one common goal--beating the pants off the Americans. 

 

I don't think either the Euros or the Internationals would care nearly as much about playing each other in a Ryder Cup as they do for the chance to embarrass the American players. 

 

I'm not so sure about that.  Yes, the besting the Americans thing is there, but there is very much a vibe on the ET that is quite different.   They don't seem to take themselves as seriously.  They get on with each other much differently.

 

Internationals....there is nothing there.  What on earth do South Koreans and South Africans have in common?  And while there is an anti-American contingent in Canada, those guys played in college in the US.  They want to win, but it's nothing different than trying to win any other match.  An American, Martian or Venetian, it doesn't matter.   

 

[smashdn]

FA or Lamar Hunt Cup concept.  Get smaller teams from each of the playing tours and do match play events.  KFT vs Asian Tour  PGAT vs DPWT or LIV vs whomever.  Bracket style play spread over an entire year.  6 players per team and 2 alternates.