Golf is Hard...But It Is Also Fair.

[Righty to Lefty]

I love this game because it is the single most difficult sport on the planet (hitting a baseball is the single most difficult act in sport) comprehensively. Even at that there is a mathematical nature that can be applied to golf that can't be put to use in any other sport because other sports often involve a time crunch in which you must act within a given timeframe such as hitting a baseball, or a tennis ball, etc.  I find solace in the fact that the golf ball is sitting there waiting for you to strike it, but also that the task presented to you is one of the most difficult endeavors in all of sport.  There is only ONE point in time along your swing arc that will match your intentions and the ball must be present at that location or you will pay the price.  That being said the parameters to execute a give shot are the exact same for everyone, everyday, forever  and I find solace in that fact. I am often amazed at how much pushback comes when impact is mentioned within these forums because impact is the true fundamental foundation of golf and yet there is so much resistance to knowing and thoroughly understanding the factors that govern every golf shot that is ever hit.  My background in engineering, exercise science, and playing golf both right and left handed have really gone along way to shape my understanding of the game and I feel that it will be a great benefit to those that truly want to understand and speed up their progress in this crazy game that we all love.  At this point I will just create my own threads to allow those that want to interact that chance and leave those that want to pursue other means of instruction or knowledge gathering to their own devices.  I am not concerned whether there is 1 or 100 people interacting in a given thread that I create so long as there is 1 person wanting to gain knowledge I will respond. I will also respond and add concepts to this thread to keep them all consolidated rather than making new ones.  

 

This is my response in a prior thread that I want to use as a starting point for conversation for why impact is boss and should be day one learning even before grip stance and posture: 

 

Impact doesn't care how you feel.  Impact doesn't care if you are in a good or bad mood, or happy or sad or nervous because it is unchanged in its requirements of you or anyone else that hits a golf ball.  If you hit 25 balls or 1000 balls the requirements for impact didn't change but if all sudden your round or range session went off the rails and you believe it is because you hit a certain amount of shots, or that your swing motion changed, when it is not.  The error is that you weren't paying attention to each and every strike and not making the necessary adjustment to maintain the proper low point orientation in relation to the ball to maintain leverage and these adjustments are mandatory.    

 

Hitting a lot of golf balls is a perfect opportunity to simulate fatigue that you would experience during a given round of golf and it is often used in practice settings to add stress and make the athlete make adjustments that are necessary to continue to perform.  If all you do is hit a few shots while you feel good and then walk away you are doing yourself a disservice because that in no way will represent a real round of golf.  It is often when you journey out into that deep water that you truly find yourself.  I remember wrestling in high school when the coach would cycle 3 fresh guys in on me and I wrestled for 30 straight minutes. Initially the body hits a point where you can't even defend yourself because it is so depleted but over time I got better and better because I was being taught a valuable lesson on how to find efficiency and still think clearly even when the stress level is maxed out.  This is a microcosm of golf and life, how do you react when things go off the rails. 

 

This is golf in a nutshell explained by the kicker for the Baltimore Ravens Justin Tucker and he really nails it with his explanation at the :43 second mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBaA3lJQstM

 

So what is really happening when your round or range session goes off the rails "all of a sudden?" You are being distracted by your emotions and fatigue rendering you unable to recover the proper strike when if you are thinking clearly, and truly understand impact and what you are trying to accomplish, then you would know that an adjustment can and must be made to recover and maintain a levered strike.  You must make yourself be your own swing robot in that it doesn't matter how you feel, the requirements of you are still the same because impact doesn't care and there should no emotion involved. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

First Fundamental: Low Point Orientation in Relation to the Ball. 

 

  Low point orientation in relation to the ball is EVERYTHING in golf. You MUST understand where your low point of your swing arc is in relation to the ball on EVERY shot that you hit or you will not play good golf...period.  The problem is that most golfers do not realize that as they play a round of golf that their low point will drift as they fatigue. 

 

There are a few "deal breakers" in a golf swing that must remain in tact and one of those is that your trail arm MUST be still bent some amount depending on your physical ability at impact to strike a ball with leverage.  The trick is that you are not holding this angle...you are orienting your low point as such that it happens to still be bent when it strikes the ball.  The issue is that most don't realize that as they fatigue that they must adjust this relationship to maintain leverage.  Understanding your intentions in your pre shot and then analyzing every shot that you hit will give you the hint that your low point is drifting and I will provide an example.

 

When I am warming up prior to my round or range session I set my low point of my swing arc 4 inches in front of the ball for every club hit off the ground and know that this will produce a straight flying golf shot.  This is my reference for the day and I know that I am expecting that when I set my low point 4 inches in front of the ball that I am expecting to see a straight flying shot with all clubs being hit off the ground.  The instant that I see a ball that I expect to fly straight have any kind of curvature I know instantly that I am "out of position to the ball (this is very different from a ball that flew straight and was levered as that will just require an aim adjustment.)" Most often this will show itself and my ball will draw ever so slightly.  The shot will still be playable and can still hit the green even, but I know that it was not inline with my intentions.  On video what would be seen is that my trail arm would have fully extended right at, or just prior to impact allowing the club face to close in relation to my path and if I continue to play shots off the ground from that same 4 inch low point the draw with get progressively bigger because I am fatigued to the point that my natural swing motion cannot maintain leverage or lag tension as it is also called from my current reference location in relation to the ball. 

 

So how do I regain leverage?  I change my location in relation to the ball. I will rotate my swing base in a semicircle and set my low point of my swing arc at 6 inches in front of the ball.  What I have done is adjusted my location to account for my fatigue in an effort to strike the ball before my trail arm fully straightens which is mandatory. It is important to note this adjustment will regain a straight flying levered golf shot.  This same adjustment at the beginning of the round would create a fade because my reference was initially 4 inches,  but at this point in the round it will create straight flying golf shot and now an 8 inch low point would now be needed to create a fade.   This is what is meant by being out of position in relation to the ball and why it is so important to monitor strike and ball flight on every single shot as your ball flight and strike are telling you a story and this is also why I say impact is boss.  A true levered draw or a fade is struck by getting out of position to the ball on purpose while not compromising your swing motion.  No matter what your swing motion looks like there is still a point along your swing arc that matches your intentions, the ball must be present at that location and strike and ball flight will let you know how well you did things, but you have to know how to interpret it and build a reference from which to work from,  and also understand and accept that as you progress through a round that the reference will likely drift unless you are in very good physical condition.  Can you also see why my posts get long, it is because this very simple concept is full of details that can't be ignored or overlooked.  Thanks again for asking your question and I hope that I was thorough enough in my response that you will progress to more questions and I will be glad to respond and further clarify.  

 

Now that I have responded I would ask you to take another look at the video that I made for a buddy some years ago explaining this concept as it should now be even more clear: 

 

[Zitlow]

Like Justin Tucker said, the ball kicks itself. The big eureka moment in golf for me was learning how to use the agonist and antagonist properties of muscle pairs. With your background you’re very aware of how the joints move to create muscular motion. 

[Chunkitgood]

I sort of agree, but…you greatly increase the odds of the ball and the motion of the club intersecting acceptably if you swing properly.  People don’t hit it poorly because their low point drifts with fatigue…they bottom out too soon from the start.  There is no point in their swing that matches their intentions.

[Righty to Lefty]

13 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Like Justin Tucker said, the ball kicks itself. The big eureka moment in golf for me was learning how to use the agonist and antagonist properties of muscle pairs. With your background you’re very aware of how the joints move to create muscular motion. 

Absolutely... so often in my golf journey what I have noticed is that the most important factors sit in plain sight but are overlooked and this became very evident to me  when I switched from righty to lefty and was determined for it to not take 6 years to break 90. It took me 6 years to break 90 right handed while only playing from an athletic standpoint and having no mathematical understanding of impact and it took me 6 months to break 90 playing lefty being equipped with knowledge of impact while not even fully grasping the concepts.  That was eye opening for me because once I knew what  I was  trying to accomplish and also understood that it isn't "magic" I found solace in that fact and it also made me completely "comfortable with being uncomfortable" when making adjustments to find a levered strike. It also made me realize just how much the body changes from day to day making the exact same shot feel completely different to execute. The requirements of impact didn't change, but how I felt athletically did and it was very important to understand and gain confidence in because I know that it is on me to get it done and pay attention to the details.  Justin Tucker knows what has to happen mathematically for him to make that kick, he knows that the mathematical requirement for him to make a kick is unchanged regardless of how he feels on a given day and I really enjoyed that part of the interview because it is directly relevant to golf also.  

 

Everything about  my golf game changed when I began to approach the game from this standpoint because I knew exactly why a shot did or did not go as I intended and it was a paradigm shift for me.  My on course demeanor, where I used to be very fiery, I found stemmed from the fact that I didn't truly understand what I was trying to accomplish on a given golf shot, and even worse, I didn't know how to interpret ball flight and impact as the lessons they teach tell you everything you need to know but 99.9% of golfers do not know how to truly interpret impact and are doing themselves a grave disservice and stunting their progress. 

 

6 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I sort of agree, but…you greatly increase the odds of the ball and the motion of the club intersecting acceptably if you swing properly.  People don’t hit it poorly because their low point drifts with fatigue…they bottom out too soon from the start.  There is no point in their swing that matches their intentions.

 No you do not...if that were the case then Adam Scott would win every major.  If your swing motion was responsible then you wouldn't even need a ball present to be able to tell if someone was a good golfer or not and you would be able to tell on their practice. swing if they were a pro or not.  The fact is that you can't tell until the lil ball is introduced into the equation and that is because only then will things come to the light.  Pretty swing motion in no way guarantees that you understand and fully comprehend where you are in relation to the ball thus you may play good golf or you may not, conversely if you fully comprehend where you are in relation to the ball you will play your best golf because where you are in relation to the ball is everything and if you understand that, pretty swing motion doesn't really add as much as many think it does, though I am all for refining things to gain efficiency. Most every pro with very few exceptions, has some sort of "flaw" in their swing motion that they have learned to play great golf in spite of.  If an athlete has poor low point orientation initially and strikes the ball well, then loses leverage as they fatigue and their rounds goes off the rails then that athlete doesn't understand the adjustments that must be made to maintain impact. If an athlete starts out with poor low point orientation from the beginning and never adjusts that is even worse as it displays a complete lack of comprehension or knowledge!

 

So how do you gain the required knowledge (3 options): 

 

1. Play Athletically - Hit so many golf balls from an early age that you develop an ingrained instinct for positioning your low point. Kids will initially swing and miss the ball completely but will move their low point around the ball instinctively until they hit it. They will then over time develop an understanding that if they go back to that same spot that the results will repeat but this trust will take much experimentation and hundreds of thousands to millions of reps which most adult learners simply do not have the time to reach and this simply isn't an option for most yet this is the approach that most golfers chose. 

 

2. Play Mathematically - This doesn't work because even if you fully comprehend impact, there is still an athletic component to golf.  You would be capable of playing good golf, but only in relation to your physical ability that you bring to the table as this type of golfer likely doesn't comprehend how the math of impact and athletic feels translate to one another thus would find the athletic demand of golf difficult but would be able to design a hell of a swing robot! 

 

3. Play both Athletically and Mathematically - This athlete fully comprehends impact mathematically and is also capable of translating and adapting it to athletic feels. This is the perspective that all adult learners must use if they intend to play their best golf.  I say that because the athlete simply does not have enough time to hit enough golf balls and also is likely past their athletic prime to develop the required instinct to play from purely an athletic perspective.  Basically an adult learner cares if they swing and miss while a child doesn't and that is a very important distinction and why it is paramount that an adult learner know impact.  It is also important for all to eventually gain full comprehension of impact because as the athlete ages most all will experience injury and that will wreck all feels and will require recalibration of those feels. Tiger looked like a rank beginner at times when his feels that he had developed and trusted all his life were ruined due to injury because those feels can only be trusted when the condition of the body remains relatively constant and that is why physical condition is a factor because it will lengthen the amount of time that your low point will remain in a certain location and provide a levered strike and not require adjustment. 

 

Am I making complete sense?    

 

 

[Zitlow]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to think about impact. The downswing happens so quick that  any conscious thought or effort slows down club head speed by a lot. 

[Barfolomew]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to think about impact. The downswing happens so quick that  any conscious thought or effort slows down club head speed by a lot. 

 

Funny cause Impact is mostly what I think about.  Contact is King.

 

But so many different ways to play golf that no one is wrong just different.

 

The better I'm playin the less I think about anything else but contact for the desired flight.... but when game is off its like ok is everything clickin or not.... whats messing this up and so make sure grip, backswing, tempo, stance etc are where I like em but when playin well its all forgotten and its all about type of contact needed 🦃

 

 

 

[Tanner25]

RTL,

 

I like your concept of straightening the trail arm after impact. We'd all love ball turf contact. How does your set up trick work? Club drops from left hip.

 

What the difference between that and having the ball in the middle of your stance and swing four inches ahead of impact/ball?

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Tanner25

[ShortGolfer]

One of the smartest moves I made last year was getting new prescription glasses so I could see the flight of the ball.

I need that feedback.  If I hit the ball into a net I don't really get much feedback. 

This year I figured out ways of practicing in my back yard and watching the flight of the ball.  

First driver practice using Callaway foam practice balls.  I learned that I could hit a draw just as reliably as my fade.

 

Then I did hardpan bunker practice at a nearby municipal course.  Practicing with both low and high bounce wedges.  

In the past week I've been hitting my wedge off a dual turf mat and watching the ball flight.  My swing is consistent enough that I can tell when I'm missing slightly off the mat.

I'll hit half a dozen real golf balls with half swings and then another half dozen foam balls with full swings.

 

I play with half a set of clubs.  I'm actually pretty good at figuring out and making shots when I don't exactly have the club I need. 

Success is whenever I can hit the green and use my putter on the next shot.

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:08 AM, Zitlow said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to think about impact. The downswing happens so quick that  any conscious thought or effort slows down club head speed by a lot. 

Exactly. Impact is a millisecond in time. Another thing is, when our brains feel impact, the ball is already .2 seconds on its way. 

[dvq9654]

You wrote a lot of words, so much so I'm not even sure what you are talking about, but I am going to say this: golf is not fair.

 

- You can hit a good shot and it can ricochet is the wrong direction. You hit a bad shot and it can ricochet towards the hole.

- You can hit a shot dead down the middle of the fairway and land in a divot

- You can hit an shot right at the hole and have the pin knock it out 

- You can hit a horrible shot and hit the pin knock it in

- You can have any number of things happen as you hit the shot you intended to hit and have the result vary massively

 

Overtime, all these things may work out, but on a shot by shot basis it is not fair. Not even close. 

 

Even golf tournaments are not fair. You can get the good side of the draw or bad. You can be paired with a good partner or bad. 

 

Golf doesn't need to be fair for it to be good, but I find it a stretch to call it anything close to fair

[Righty to Lefty]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:08 PM, Zitlow said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to think about impact. The downswing happens so quick that  any conscious thought or effort slows down club head speed by a lot. 

I never said think about impact. I say impact is boss and you should know how to interpret it as it is a true fundamental of golf.  

 

On 10/14/2022 at 10:50 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Exactly. Impact is a millisecond in time. Another thing is, when our brains feel impact, the ball is already .2 seconds on its way. 

Once again I never said to think about impact...I always state that the first step to analyzing any golf shot is did you lever it. If so then continue on with your analysis of a given shot and if not go back and retest and find leverage.  You must be able to interpret impact and ball flight.  

[Righty to Lefty]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:24 AM, Tanner25 said:

RTL,

 

I like your concept of straightening the trail arm after impact. We'd all love ball turf contact. How does your set up trick work? Club drops from left hip.

 

What the difference between that and having the ball in the middle of your stance and swing four inches ahead of impact/ball?

 

 

The trail fully arm straightening prior to impact is a deal breaker because you will not be able to lever the golf ball and you will lose control of the club face. It is not a position that is being "held" more so you orient your low point in relation to the ball such that the trail arm happens to still be bent at impact some amount depending on your physical ability and flexibility.  A more technical term is called lag tension and I will post a video for you to take a look at but it is mandatory to have if you intend to play your best golf. The only way to create ball then turf strike would be if your low point is some amount in front of the ball  and your trail arm is still bent some amount at impact. 

 

Lag Tension Video: 

 

Here is video that I made for a buddy a few years ago going over setting low point and why it is so important to understand where it is being set in relation to the ball. If your low point is in the correct location in relation to the ball you will have lag tension and leverage as the two work hand in hand. To use a different sport as and analogy a boxer throwing a punch would strike the person before their arm fully extends and hitting a golf ball, baseball, etc. would be no different.

 

 

In reference to your ball in the middle of the stance question no shot is struck at low point of the swing arc but it is important to know where low point is being set on every swing so that you can reliably put the ball somewhere along that arc to align with your intentions to hit a given shot. Your low point of your swing arc will be set some amount in front of the ball for EVERY club  being hit off the ground and some amount behind the ball for a club being hit off a tee depending on the tee height that you intend to hit with a positive AoA (you can hit up or down on a ball being hit off a tee but the most efficient way is to have a positive AoA.) 

 

Here is a model of a straight ball being hit at low point (No good): 

Notice how the plane / shoulder line is parallel to the target line (not good). 

 

Here is a model of a levered straight ball being hit prior to low point (wedges, irons, hybrids, fairway woods):

Notice how you can now see the mark on the trash can lid denoting the low point of the swing arc and how it is in front of the pencil which is pointing down the target line and represents the club face at impact. Also note how the plane / shoulder line is oriented to the left of the target line that means that to lever a ball being hit off the ground that your plane / shoulder line will be oriented left of the target line some amount depending on the club being hit.  

 

Here is a model of a levered straight ball being hit after low point off a tee (Driver and fairway woods):

Notice how you can now see the mark on the trash can lid denoting the low point of the swing arc and how it is behind the pencil which is pointing down the target line and represents the club face. Also note how the plane is oriented to the right of the target line that means that to lever a ball being hit off a tee with a positive AoA that your plane / shoulder line will be oriented right of the target line.  

 

These relationships are mandatory to understand either by hitting millions of golf balls  from a young age, or by understanding the model representations above, and will go a long way to steepening your improvement because these factors govern every golf shot that is ever hit and the same rules apply to everyone, everyday, forever.  This is a quick and dirty version of a pretty detailed subject but I know that it will create more questions as you digest it and please don't hesitate to reach out when those questions arise and I will explain further but I assure you that once these concepts are fully grasped that your improvement curve will steepen greatly.  R to L

[Righty to Lefty]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:01 AM, dvq9654 said:

You wrote a lot of words, so much so I'm not even sure what you are talking about, but I am going to say this: golf is not fair.

 

- You can hit a good shot and it can ricochet is the wrong direction. You hit a bad shot and it can ricochet towards the hole.

- You can hit a shot dead down the middle of the fairway and land in a divot

- You can hit an shot right at the hole and have the pin knock it out 

- You can hit a horrible shot and hit the pin knock it in

- You can have any number of things happen as you hit the shot you intended to hit and have the result vary massively

 

Overtime, all these things may work out, but on a shot by shot basis it is not fair. Not even close. 

 

Even golf tournaments are not fair. You can get the good side of the draw or bad. You can be paired with a good partner or bad. 

 

Golf doesn't need to be fair for it to be good, but I find it a stretch to call it anything close to fair

I am not referring to the rub of the green....I am referring to impact and the fact that it is purely up to the athlete to hit a given shot.  Sure once the ball exits the club face you are at the mercy of the elements but impact is the exact same for everyone, everyday, forever. That is the crux of my statement. 

[Zitlow]

I like the rub of the green aspect of golf. Definitely agree that the trail arm doesn't straighten until after impact. The club is fully released when both arms are straight and the club is inline with the right arm 45* past the ball. 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The trail fully arm straightening prior to impact is a deal breaker because you will not be able to lever the golf ball and you will lose control of the club face. It is not a position that is being "held" more so you orient your low point in relation to the ball such that the trail arm happens to still be bent at impact some amount depending on your physical ability and flexibility.  A more technical term is called lag tension and I will post a video for you to take a look at but it is mandatory to have if you intend to play your best golf. The only way to create ball then turf strike would be if your low point is some amount in front of the ball  and your trail arm is still bent some amount at impact. 

 

Lag Tension Video: 

 

Here is video that I made for a buddy a few years ago going over setting low point and why it is so important to understand where it is being set in relation to the ball. If your low point is in the correct location in relation to the ball you will have lag tension and leverage as the two work hand in hand. To use a different sport as and analogy a boxer throwing a punch would strike the person before their arm fully extends and hitting a golf ball, baseball, etc. would be no different.

 

 

In reference to your ball in the middle of the stance question no shot is struck at low point of the swing arc but it is important to know where low point is being set on every swing so that you can reliably put the ball somewhere along that arc to align with your intentions to hit a given shot. Your low point of your swing arc will be set some amount in front of the ball for EVERY club  being hit off the ground and some amount behind the ball for a club being hit off a tee depending on the tee height that you intend to hit with a positive AoA (you can hit up or down on a ball being hit off a tee but the most efficient way is to have a positive AoA.) 

 

Here is a model of a straight ball being hit at low point (No good): 

Notice how the plane / shoulder line is parallel to the target line (not good). 

 

Here is a model of a levered straight ball being hit prior to low point (wedges, irons, hybrids, fairway woods):

Notice how you can now see the mark on the trash can lid denoting the low point of the swing arc and how it is in front of the pencil which is pointing down the target line and represents the club face at impact. Also note how the plane / shoulder line is oriented to the left of the target line that means that to lever a ball being hit off the ground that your plane / shoulder line will be oriented left of the target line some amount depending on the club being hit.  

 

Here is a model of a levered straight ball being hit after low point off a tee (Driver and fairway woods):

Notice how you can now see the mark on the trash can lid denoting the low point of the swing arc and how it is behind the pencil which is pointing down the target line and represents the club face. Also note how the plane is oriented to the right of the target line that means that to lever a ball being hit off a tee with a positive AoA that your plane / shoulder line will be oriented right of the target line.  

 

These relationships are mandatory to understand either by hitting millions of golf balls  from a young age, or by understanding the model representations above, and will go a long way to steepening your improvement because these factors govern every golf shot that is ever hit and the same rules apply to everyone, everyday, forever.  This is a quick and dirty version of a pretty detailed subject but I know that it will create more questions as you digest it and please don't hesitate to reach out when those questions arise and I will explain further but I assure you that once these concepts are fully grasped that your improvement curve will steepen greatly.  R to L

@Luckydutch These are the first steps to truly understanding impact and this is exactly why I know that you are out of position to the ball and it ruining the best of intentions as there is absolutely nothing wrong with your swing motion, but the issue lies within your understanding of impact. Please take a look at this post and come back with any questions that you may have. 

[Tanner25]

R to L,

 

I agree, we must get the low point forward. How do we do this?  Based on the video, the lower body starts the swing and you hold the lag. Is holding the lag intentional?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Tanner25

[bladehunter]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:54 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

Absolutely... so often in my golf journey what I have noticed is that the most important factors sit in plain sight but are overlooked and this became very evident to me  when I switched from righty to lefty and was determined for it to not take 6 years to break 90. It took me 6 years to break 90 right handed while only playing from an athletic standpoint and having no mathematical understanding of impact and it took me 6 months to break 90 playing lefty being equipped with knowledge of impact while not even fully grasping the concepts.  That was eye opening for me because once I knew what  I was  trying to accomplish and also understood that it isn't "magic" I found solace in that fact and it also made me completely "comfortable with being uncomfortable" when making adjustments to find a levered strike. It also made me realize just how much the body changes from day to day making the exact same shot feel completely different to execute. The requirements of impact didn't change, but how I felt athletically did and it was very important to understand and gain confidence in because I know that it is on me to get it done and pay attention to the details.  Justin Tucker knows what has to happen mathematically for him to make that kick, he knows that the mathematical requirement for him to make a kick is unchanged regardless of how he feels on a given day and I really enjoyed that part of the interview because it is directly relevant to golf also.  

 

Everything about  my golf game changed when I began to approach the game from this standpoint because I knew exactly why a shot did or did not go as I intended and it was a paradigm shift for me.  My on course demeanor, where I used to be very fiery, I found stemmed from the fact that I didn't truly understand what I was trying to accomplish on a given golf shot, and even worse, I didn't know how to interpret ball flight and impact as the lessons they teach tell you everything you need to know but 99.9% of golfers do not know how to truly interpret impact and are doing themselves a grave disservice and stunting their progress. 

 

 No you do not...if that were the case then Adam Scott would win every major.  If your swing motion was responsible then you wouldn't even need a ball present to be able to tell if someone was a good golfer or not and you would be able to tell on their practice. swing if they were a pro or not.  The fact is that you can't tell until the lil ball is introduced into the equation and that is because only then will things come to the light.  Pretty swing motion in no way guarantees that you understand and fully comprehend where you are in relation to the ball thus you may play good golf or you may not, conversely if you fully comprehend where you are in relation to the ball you will play your best golf because where you are in relation to the ball is everything and if you understand that, pretty swing motion doesn't really add as much as many think it does, though I am all for refining things to gain efficiency. Most every pro with very few exceptions, has some sort of "flaw" in their swing motion that they have learned to play great golf in spite of.  If an athlete has poor low point orientation initially and strikes the ball well, then loses leverage as they fatigue and their rounds goes off the rails then that athlete doesn't understand the adjustments that must be made to maintain impact. If an athlete starts out with poor low point orientation from the beginning and never adjusts that is even worse as it displays a complete lack of comprehension or knowledge!

 

So how do you gain the required knowledge (3 options): 

 

1. Play Athletically - Hit so many golf balls from an early age that you develop an ingrained instinct for positioning your low point. Kids will initially swing and miss the ball completely but will move their low point around the ball instinctively until they hit it. They will then over time develop an understanding that if they go back to that same spot that the results will repeat but this trust will take much experimentation and hundreds of thousands to millions of reps which most adult learners simply do not have the time to reach and this simply isn't an option for most yet this is the approach that most golfers chose. 

 

2. Play Mathematically - This doesn't work because even if you fully comprehend impact, there is still an athletic component to golf.  You would be capable of playing good golf, but only in relation to your physical ability that you bring to the table as this type of golfer likely doesn't comprehend how the math of impact and athletic feels translate to one another thus would find the athletic demand of golf difficult but would be able to design a hell of a swing robot! 

 

3. Play both Athletically and Mathematically - This athlete fully comprehends impact mathematically and is also capable of translating and adapting it to athletic feels. This is the perspective that all adult learners must use if they intend to play their best golf.  I say that because the athlete simply does not have enough time to hit enough golf balls and also is likely past their athletic prime to develop the required instinct to play from purely an athletic perspective.  Basically an adult learner cares if they swing and miss while a child doesn't and that is a very important distinction and why it is paramount that an adult learner know impact.  It is also important for all to eventually gain full comprehension of impact because as the athlete ages most all will experience injury and that will wreck all feels and will require recalibration of those feels. Tiger looked like a rank beginner at times when his feels that he had developed and trusted all his life were ruined due to injury because those feels can only be trusted when the condition of the body remains relatively constant and that is why physical condition is a factor because it will lengthen the amount of time that your low point will remain in a certain location and provide a levered strike and not require adjustment. 

 

Am I making complete sense?    

 

 

Raises hand.   Eh -   ALL is never correct.  I’m an exception to the adult learners camp.  Most real athletes can pick up this game and be low single digits in a year or so IF they have the drive to practice.  By real athletes I don’t mean outfielders with .157 batting averages.  Lol.   I’m talking basketball players , runners , football QBs and WRs , pitchers , shortstops etc. guys with good hands and /or loads of fast twitch.  Baseball players think they translate but are least likely in my opinion, and most that do are pitchers. Because 1. They don’t hit much and 2. They are tactical thinkers who are used to working more solo than not. .  

[Righty to Lefty]

18 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

R to L,

 

I agree, we must get the low point forward. How do we do this?  Based on the video, the lower body starts the swing and you hold the lag. Is holding the lag intentional?

 

 

Did you see the video that I posted above about "setting the low point," if not I will repost it for you to see, because I go over a method that I use to begin to gain an understanding of where the low point is being set on a given shot so that you can begin to develop a reference which is very important. It is also very important that you realize that NOTHING is ever being "held" or "fired" in the golf swing motion as this is inefficient 100% of the time.  You are orienting your low point as such in relation to the ball that your trail arm happens to still be bent some amount when it strikes the ball.  When you take a practice swing there is no attempt to fire or hold anything, yet once the ball is introduced into the equation it ruins the best of intentions when the ball doesn't stand a chance against all the force that is being created by the club.  The same effort and tension level used to make your practice swing, is the same that should be used when the ball is present because if you have developed a trust and understanding of where your low point is being set in relation to the ball and understand that there is no reason to try to interject yourself into the shot as that will not end well.  Take a look a this video and let me know if you need any further clarification on anything. 

 

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Raises hand.   Eh -   ALL is never correct.  I’m an exception to the adult learners camp.  Most real athletes can pick up this game and be low single digits in a year or so IF they have the drive to practice.  By real athletes I don’t mean outfielders with .157 batting averages.  Lol.   I’m talking basketball players , runners , football QBs and WRs , pitchers , shortstops etc. guys with good hands and /or loads of fast twitch.  Baseball players think they translate but are least likely in my opinion, and most that do are pitchers. Because 1. They don’t hit much and 2. They are tactical thinkers who are used to working more solo than not. .  

Most people are not "real" athletes and the large majority of golfers will never even break 90.  Also golf is not a run fast or jump high sport and most other sports simply do not translate to hitting a golf ball. I am a former high level baseball player and I will say that most baseball players struggle early on with golf because of a couple main factors...one is that you have a time element to make a decision so baseball is very reactionary where golf is not as the ball waits for you to hit it, and the main one is that you can hit the ball anywhere without penalty.  A foul ball is a do over and you can hit the ball in play anywhere from the first to third base line and it be in play.  Hockey players tend to take to golf very well because the way leverage is generated is very similar to golf and also no matter where you are on the ice you are directing all your shots to one specific target so hockey and golf are very similar in those aspects.  Simply put golf is the most difficult sport on the planet and no other sport is really even close in regards to the power and precision requirement (though hitting a baseball is the most difficult single act in sport.) 

 

For comedic relief!

 

[Tanner25]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Did you see the video that I posted above about "setting the low point," if not I will repost it for you to see, because I go over a method that I use to begin to gain an understanding of where the low point is being set on a given shot so that you can begin to develop a reference which is very important. It is also very important that you realize that NOTHING is ever being "held" or "fired" in the golf swing motion as this is inefficient 100% of the time.  You are orienting your low point as such in relation to the ball that your trail arm happens to still be bent some amount when it strikes the ball.  When you take a practice swing there is no attempt to fire or hold anything, yet once the ball is introduced into the equation it ruins the best of intentions when the ball doesn't stand a chance against all the force that is being created by the club.  The same effort and tension level used to make your practice swing, is the same that should be used when the ball is present because if you have developed a trust and understanding of where your low point is being set in relation to the ball and understand that there is no reason to try to interject yourself into the shot as that will not end well.  Take a look a this video and let me know if you need any further clarification on anything. 

 

Most people are not "real" athletes and the large majority of golfers will never even break 90.  Also golf is not a run fast or jump high sport and most other sports simply do not translate to hitting a golf ball. I am a former high level baseball player and I will say that most baseball players struggle early on with golf because of a couple main factors...one is that you have a time element to make a decision so baseball is very reactionary where golf is not as the ball waits for you to hit it, and the main one is that you can hit the ball anywhere without penalty.  A foul ball is a do over and you can hit the ball in play anywhere from the first to third base line and it be in play.  Hockey players tend to take to golf very well because the way leverage is generated is very similar to golf and also no matter where you are on the ice you are directing all your shots to one specific target so hockey and golf are very similar in those aspects.  Simply put golf is the most difficult sport on the planet and no other sport is really even close in regards to the power and precision requirement (though hitting a baseball is the most difficult single act in sport.) 

 

For comedic relief!

 

 

Thanks, R to L. I do get the idea of the low point and thanks for the video. But, I am still confused on the actual application of the concept. Is this during a "pre-swing" to reinforce the focus and intention and once it is set. You take the club behind the ball, keeping the low point in mind (with no intention of hitting the low point) and then just swing your swing or something else?

[betarhoalphadelta]

Doesn't seem all that controversial. 

 

Impact is all the ball cares about. So impact is, in fact, boss....

 

But given all the vagaries of the golf swing, how do you get to a proper impact position? 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

 

Thanks, R to L. I do get the idea of the low point and thanks for the video. But, I am still confused on the actual application of the concept. Is this during a "pre-swing" to reinforce the focus and intention and once it is set. You take the club behind the ball, keeping the low point in mind (with no intention of hitting the low point) and then just swing your swing or something else?

Yes Tanner25 I like these questions because they are telling me that you are thinking deeper into the subject and that is great.  All calculations on a given shot are done in the pre shot.  Setting your low point, start line, recalling feel reference for the speed required to hit a given club a certain distance, and shot shape are all calculated in your pre shot.  Then once you step into the shot and set your low point all thought is done and you become an "outside observer" and become an athlete as the only thing that is left for you to do is provide a certain amount of speed to the shot to hit it the distance that you calculated in your pre shot and feel the club as it moves around you, and that is it because you must give up control and let the body show you how well it is understanding your inputs.  Immediately at impact you will then have to become a student again because you need to note if our levered the shot or not and if so you need to then analyze the resulting ball flight to see if your inputs are correct or need to be refined.  You have to recalibrate your thinking and when I say this it will hopefully begin to resonate in your mind or at least it will later on.  "The shot sets you up, you do not set up to the shot." 

 

Why is this so important to understand?  Because if you truly understand impact you will understand that there is only one variable in a every golf shot that you ever hit and I will explain: 

 

1. Low point - Fixed parameter as your low point must be in a certain location depending on your body make up and current energy level to maintain a levered strike. 

2. Club Face at Impact - Fixed parameter as there is only one point along your swing arc that will match your intended start line. 

3. Club Speed at Impact - Fixed parameter because for any given delivered loft there is a given speed that must be delivered.  This "feel" will have to be developed or time to be used as a reference point but over time you will develop a better and better feel for distance but only if your are good at setting your low point to maintain leverage.

4. Club Plane / Shoulder Line - Variable parameter - This is the only variable in a given shot because it is used to tilt the spin axis and create shot curvature and this is calculated in your pre shot routine as it is your choice to play a draw, fade, or straight shot. The math to hit a certain amount of curvature is the exact same for everyone, but how you will "feel" to create a draw or fade will be different.  I create draw flight very easily but "feel" like I am hitting a slice to hit a 5 yard fade but this understanding is very useful on the course because I know my tendencies.  Note: I did not say stance line...the club follows the plane of your shoulders always because the club is being held in your hands and it in no way follows the line of your stance  unless your stance line happens to match that of you shoulders. 

 

Can you then see how if you continually change your swing motion how this will ruin all of the references that you have developed and take your further away from developing the mythical consistency that we all strive for because it will reset all of them and you will basically have to start all over from scratch. I have never seen a swing motion that wasn't capable of levering a golf ball and hopefully this statement will also begin to resonate in your mind as to why understanding impact is orders of magnitude more important than swing motion and that is "the shot that matches your intentions is on your swing arc, the ball is simply not present at that location."  This is easily explained in the example of a swing robot has a more repeatable swing motion than any human will ever have, yet if you put it out of position with the ball, you will render it an hacker that can't break 150!  Luckily the engineers understand the math of impact so they move the robot in its entirety to a different location in relation to the ball to find leverage.  They didn't change the robot's swing motion, they moved it's location around the ball to find the desired outcome.  This is the angle that golf should be approached from and giving up your swing motion should be a last resort because it likely wasn't the issue to begin with because the body does crazy things when it is out of position to the ball so it is better to find the proper location, then refine things once strike can be relied on and trusted.  Truly understanding impact was huge for me when I switched from playing right handed to left handed and greatly steepened my learning curve and where it took me 6 years to break 90 right handed, it took me 6 months to do it lefty. Am I making sense? Please keep the questions coming and go out and test and report back.  

 

@betarhoalphadelta 

The golf swing should not be a variable because impact doesn't care about your swing motion as it is all about getting to a certain location along your swing arc with the ball present at that location.

 

This is a video that I made in a physics class but at the end of it where I hit a ball you can see how I can very easily calculate where I need to strike the ball along my swing arc to provide a desired result. But in golf the truest measure is the ability to relentlessly repeat but developing a plan from understanding what must happen is paramount: 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

 

Thanks, R to L. I do get the idea of the low point and thanks for the video. But, I am still confused on the actual application of the concept. Is this during a "pre-swing" to reinforce the focus and intention and once it is set. You take the club behind the ball, keeping the low point in mind (with no intention of hitting the low point) and then just swing your swing or something else?

Also for reference this is me going through the process of setting my low point and you can see where I touch the ground in front of the ball when it is on on the ground and hover the club over my low point with the driver.  I also do not look at the ball as it is irrelevant once I have set my low point because the ball will get struck. I used to do it as a drill and found it to be so powerful that I now do it on all my shots because I completely trust that I will stay stable over my low point and that the ball will be stuck because it is on my swing arc and this went a long way to eliminating the "hit reflex" that I used to have where I would tense up at impact.  

 

Ball being hit off the ground. Low point being set about 4 inches in front of the ball where I touch the ground: 

 

 

Driver off a 4 inch tee where the low point is being set about 2 feet behind the ball.  I am not looking at the ball I am focused on staying stacked over my low point: 

 

DTL using the same concept: 

 

[Tanner25]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yes Tanner25 I like these questions because they are telling me that you are thinking deeper into the subject and that is great.  All calculations on a given shot are done in the pre shot.  Setting your low point, start line, recalling feel reference for the speed required to hit a given club a certain distance, and shot shape are all calculated in your pre shot.  Then once you step into the shot and set your low point all thought is done and you become an "outside observer" and become an athlete as the only thing that is left for you to do is provide a certain amount of speed to the shot to hit it the distance that you calculated in your pre shot and feel the club as it moves around you, and that is it because you must give up control and let the body show you how well it is understanding your inputs.  Immediately at impact you will then have to become a student again because you need to note if our levered the shot or not and if so you need to then analyze the resulting ball flight to see if your inputs are correct or need to be refined.  You have to recalibrate your thinking and when I say this it will hopefully begin to resonate in your mind or at least it will later on.  "The shot sets you up, you do not set up to the shot." 

 

Why is this so important to understand?  Because if you truly understand impact you will understand that there is only one variable in a every golf shot that you ever hit and I will explain: 

 

1. Low point - Fixed parameter as your low point must be in a certain location depending on your body make up and current energy level to maintain a levered strike. 

2. Club Face at Impact - Fixed parameter as there is only one point along your swing arc that will match your intended start line. 

3. Club Speed at Impact - Fixed parameter because for any given delivered loft there is a given speed that must be delivered.  This "feel" will have to be developed or time to be used as a reference point but over time you will develop a better and better feel for distance but only if your are good at setting your low point to maintain leverage.

4. Club Plane / Shoulder Line - Variable parameter - This is the only variable in a given shot because it is used to tilt the spin axis and create shot curvature and this is calculated in your pre shot routine as it is your choice to play a draw, fade, or straight shot. The math to hit a certain amount of curvature is the exact same for everyone, but how you will "feel" to create a draw or fade will be different.  I create draw flight very easily but "feel" like I am hitting a slice to hit a 5 yard fade but this understanding is very useful on the course because I know my tendencies.  Note: I did not say stance line...the club follows the plane of your shoulders always because the club is being held in your hands and it in no way follows the line of your stance  unless your stance line happens to match that of you shoulders. 

 

Can you then see how if you continually change your swing motion how this will ruin all of the references that you have developed and take your further away from developing the mythical consistency that we all strive for because it will reset all of them and you will basically have to start all over from scratch. I have never seen a swing motion that wasn't capable of levering a golf ball and hopefully this statement will also begin to resonate in your mind as to why understanding impact is orders of magnitude more important than swing motion and that is "the shot that matches your intentions is on your swing arc, the ball is simply not present at that location."  This is easily explained in the example of a swing robot has a more repeatable swing motion than any human will ever have, yet if you put it out of position with the ball, you will render it an hacker that can't break 150!  Luckily the engineers understand the math of impact so they move the robot in its entirety to a different location in relation to the ball to find leverage.  They didn't change the robot's swing motion, they moved it's location around the ball to find the desired outcome.  This is the angle that golf should be approached from and giving up your swing motion should be a last resort because it likely wasn't the issue to begin with because the body does crazy things when it is out of position to the ball so it is better to find the proper location, then refine things once strike can be relied on and trusted.  Truly understanding impact was huge for me when I switched from playing right handed to left handed and greatly steepened my learning curve and where it took me 6 years to break 90 right handed, it took me 6 months to do it lefty. Am I making sense? Please keep the questions coming and go out and test and report back.  

 

@betarhoalphadelta 

The golf swing should not be a variable because impact doesn't care about your swing motion as it is all about getting to a certain location along your swing arc with the ball present at that location.

 

This is a video that I made in a physics class but at the end of it where I hit a ball you can see how I can very easily calculate where I need to strike the ball along my swing arc to provide a desired result. But in golf the truest measure is the ability to relentlessly repeat but developing a plan from understanding what must happen is paramount: 

 

R To L, Thanks, for trying to help us. I'll re-read what you said, later. I see the vids, will report back. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Tanner25

[Tanner25]

R To L, Thanks, for the videos. I was NOT expecting some major hovering going on. I am confused, you speak in basic and traditional terms when discovering the low point and impact. Yet, you have an unconventional approach. I am having trouble following it. But, from I can see under AJ 2019 and some others, you set up forward of the ball (set the low point) and then return behind the ball, then HOVER and go. In the AJ 2019 video, I like the way you start the club head towards the target briefly to rebound and get some motion in the backswing. One of my problems is staying frozen and then lifting the club in the backswing. This will eventually sink in, but, I appreciate the videos.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Tanner25

[Righty to Lefty]

16 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

R To L, Thanks, for the videos. I was NOT expecting some major hovering going on. I am confused, you speak in basic and traditional terms when discovering the low point and impact. Yet, you have an unconventional approach. I am having trouble following it. But, from I can see under AJ 2019 and some others, you set up forward of the ball (set the low point) and then return behind the ball, then HOVER and go. In the AJ 2019 video, I like the way you start the club head towards the target briefly to rebound and get some motion in the backswing. One of my problems is staying frozen and then lifting the club in the backswing. This will eventually sink in, but, I appreciate the videos.

Tanner25 I am glad that you made the observations that you did because it actually makes a point that I have been banging my head on keyboards for years objecting to, which is do not try to copy someone else's swing motion as it will not end well.  I do all of what I do for very specific reasons and to further prove my point I will actually explain it all to you and go into detail because I realize that you are digging deep in to things and really trying to understand which is a good thing.

 

Now then, it is very important to know the difference between static and dynamic positions in the golf swing.  Static positions are irrelevant because the club is not under force thus all predictions and calculations must be made from a dynamic reference point. This is precisely why I said in the set the low point video that you have to point the butt end of the club at the lead hip because you are simulating impact under force as that is the rough location of the butt end of the club when it is under force at impact. Once you set your low point and make all your predictions you can then "be comfortable" and that is what you see me doing but initially I when I am making the slow motion swings and such with my three wood and especially the driver I am simulating impact down to my weight and pressure and everything because you can't aim a shot if you don't simulate all the details of impact.  

 

Another case and point is what happens when you aim the club face at the target while not simulating impact. This is death because the club will not return to that same location when under force and you will have to make a manipulation because as you begin to pressure the shaft with the trail arm as you should, the face will be held open and face rotation will be slowed which is a good thing but you will hit the shot right of target.  The other scenario that often occurs will be to stall rotation and the club face will pass the hands into a flipped condition, lag tension will be lost along with control of the club face, and face rotation will be much too fast making it difficult to hit a given start line and you will often miss left of target.  

 

My clubs are F5 swing weight with 40 grams extra weight in in the club heads and thus they generate extra force so I have to account for that.  So often golfers address the club out of the middle of the clubface statically, without realizing that the club is not under force, meaning that it will not return to that same spot without manipulation.  I know that if I address the ball at the ball that I hit the shot fat and the strike will also be off center and very close to the hosel because when the club is under force it will be pulling away from me thus it will not return to that same location it was at address unless I do something to manipulate the shot.  So rather that fight it or manipulate the club I address the club off the toe and hover it quite a bit to account for the force the club will generate. When I hit off the rack clubs right handed I don't hover the club but I do still address it off the heel of the club because firstly I don't generate as much speed right handed and second neither is the club.  Are you tracking with me?  

 

I was not showing you my swing for you to copy anything that I do as you have to figure all that out for yourself, I was posting it so that you can see where I am setting my low point because I either touch the ground in front of the ball or hover it over low point for driver and that was the point of me posting me going through the process.  I used to actually point the butt end of the club at my lead hip then drop it just like I showed in the set the low point video but I no longer have to do that as I have developed a feel for it over time but I note my low point on every shot that I ever hit and that is the point.  You swing your swing in regards to your physical ability and flexibility and do what you have to do to get to your low point without manipulation as this will calm the "hit reflex" and eventually you will learn to ignore the ball and just trust that it will be struck.  I do everything I do so that I can swing freely and without manipulation and it works for my club setup and physical capability and that is what you have to do also but the math of the shot is the same even if two golfer's swing motions don't look the same.  R to L

Edited October 21, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

@Tanner25This is exactly why I don't look at the ball and it is because I trust that it has been placed on my swing arc and that it will be struck by the club head because I trust impact. This goes along way to eliminate the hit reflex that many golfers have and it will help you develop lag tension naturally without trying to hold on to the angles.  

 

[Righty to Lefty]

I just want to get a lot of the information and videos that I found helpful when I switched from right to left hand that really sped up my learning and understanding.  This video is the reason that I can look at someone's setup and see exactly where they should be hitting a given shot and I always operate from an impact perspective because it is the same for everyone, everyday, forever while we are all unique athletes when it comes to swing motion.  It took the the better part of 2 months to FULLY understand this video but man it is eye opening once you get it but it truly shows just how important the location of the ball's location along the swing arc truly is.  

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

The simplest explaniton of the D plane that I have ever seen: 

 

[Righty to Lefty]