Improving Driver Shots by the feeling of "Hitting Down"

[HoganHO]

I have been practicing consistently on a GC-Quad, indoors. My iron numbers generally show an In-to-Out path between 1 and 3, and a draw (as long as I get the face right)--this is not hard for me to do and feels natural to me.

 

Where I have been struggling is with my driver, where I could not for the life of me (except when really manipulating) get to an In-to-Out path.  I did notice that my angle of attack was consistently UP 6 or 7 so I decided to experiment with the feel that was more similar to my iron swing--the feel of hitting down into the ball. This got my angle of attack to Up 4 and a very neutral path--maybe slightly Out-to-In. I noted much better contact, higher ball speed, longer carry and roll, lower spin. Just better all around by feeling like I'm hitting down.

 

Can someone help me understand this?

 

 

[Krt22]

51 minutes ago, HoganHO said:

 

 

Can someone help me understand this?

 

 

Too much right tilt away from the target in your effort to "hit up on it", very common with driver. The excessive titling tends to stall rotation, you get stuck on the trail side with the club behind you. This kills speed, opens the face, shifts path to the right, which forces a flip at the bottom which tends to move strike down the face (lower smash, lower launch, higher spin).  Swinging more like an iron and properly getting to your lead side reverses all of the above. More CHS, better smash, higher launch, lower spin.

 

The "up" part takes care of itself in a good swing due to ball position and the ball being on a tee. Since the ball is forward in your stance, path will tend to be more out to in. Fading the driver and drawing everything else is common with good players

 

[HoganHO]

Thanks!

 

And, yes, I feel way less stall/stuck when "hitting down"

[Jbarretta]

Crazy timing I just did the same thing today   what happened to me I hypothesize is I became obessed with hitting up but my trail shoulder was dropping too early leading to poor contact.   by feeling like you hit down you keep the shoulders level longer 

[KMeloney]

OP -- Were you definitely NOT in-to-out with driver previously? When I fall into the hitting-up trap by dropping my shoulder and really trying to hit up on the ball, my path gets WAY in-to-out, and I'll usually end up hitting duck hooks (by trying to avoid the otherwise-inevitable big block)...

 

But, yes, having the "intention" of swinging more down on the ball inevitably fixes a lot of my driver woes.

[Ri_Redneck]

When golfers try to "hit up more" with their drivers, the tendency is to over-do it. The ball gets placed too far forward and the lean get to far back. SMALL changes are the best way to make adjustments. It's like BrylCreem, "a little dab'll do ya!".

 

Yeah, I'm an old guy!😋

 

BT

[CSagan]

Look up D plane. That will explain why path changed. Hitting up shifts path left, hitting down shifts it right. 

[aggiegolfer21]

You were probably tilting too far behind the ball making it difficult to control the swing plane resulting in inconsistencies.  From a more neutral tilt you will have much more control over the club.

[mikpga]

Far too many golfers over do the feeling/thought of “staying back/behind”…

 

I often communicate, “you’re simply hitting less down”…

[MonteScheinblum]

This is why I’ve always nit been fond of hitting up on driver and hitting done on irons.  The vast majority of golfers will create this wrong.

 

I like the feel of swinging all clubs on the same arc and the ball position and sit ace form the ball creates the angle of attack properly.

[noodle3872]

18 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is why I’ve always nit been fond of hitting up on driver and hitting done on irons.  The vast majority of golfers will create this wrong.

 

I like the feel of swinging all clubs on the same arc and the ball position and sit ace form the ball creates the angle of attack properly.

@MonteScheinblum Are you a fan of one constant ball position with stance width widening as you move from wedges to driver?

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, noodle3872 said:

@MonteScheinblum Are you a fan of one constant ball position with stance width widening as you move from wedges to driver?

I like a modified version of the hogan diagram.

 

when you look at square feet, the ball is farther back with wedges and forward with driver, but relative to the target line it’s similar.

[noodle3872]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I like a modified version of the hogan diagram.

 

when you look at square feet, the ball is farther back with wedges and forward with driver, but relative to the target line it’s similar.

Thanks for the reply! I’ve used the constant ball position principle to help me out of being +5° AOA with driver and a picker with my short irons thru wedges. I’m now averaging +2° AOA with driver and -3° with 8i thru LW. Starting line and distance are becoming very repeatable. 

[RoyalTroon]

Even with driver it's down to go up on both back swing and down swing. 

[Insidious2]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I like a modified version of the hogan diagram.

 

when you look at square feet, the ball is farther back with wedges and forward with driver, but relative to the target line it’s similar.

 

wh...what

[betarhoalphadelta]

Speaking of the Hogan diagram, is it possible that it's a little bit outdated based upon the club technology of the time and the understanding now of maximizing driver distance? 

 

From what I remember, the old persimmon drivers were pretty universally higher loft than most modern drivers, and I would expect that they were probably teed lower, struck without a high (or potentially even a negative) AoA, and so you needed the loft of the club to get the ball on the optimal launch trajectory, with more spin. Whereas today more players are using lower-loft drivers and positive AoA to achieve the optimal launch trajectory, with less spin. 

 

If that's the case, then the Hogan diagram would naturally have driver ball position farther back in the stance relative to someone who intends positive AoA. Because he would be intending to hit it at a different point of his swing arc. 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, RonJon said:

Even with driver it's down to go up on both back swing and down swing. 

 

The left arm is the radius of the swing and it's attached to the left shoulder. The left arm is guided by the left shoulder and moves dynamically as the right wrist and arm fold in the backswing and unfold in the downswing. 

 

The pivot separates the clubhead from the ball in the backswing. Small pivot small arc big pivot big arc. The bigger the arc the more time to accelerate the clubhead creating velocity. The pivot also helps to get the body on the proper plane to aim the club at the ball. 

 

The hands and wrists move with the arms but they work the club independently to aim the shaft and clubface on plane the plane the ball is on in the backswing. In the downswing they produce speed as the right elbow and wrist unfold snapping the clubhead into the ball. 

 

In the downswing the pivot if done correctly adds body mass to the club and puts the torso in position to hit the ball with the thrown clubhead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Speaking of the Hogan diagram, is it possible that it's a little bit outdated based upon the club technology of the time and the understanding now of maximizing driver distance? 

 

From what I remember, the old persimmon drivers were pretty universally higher loft than most modern drivers, and I would expect that they were probably teed lower, struck without a high (or potentially even a negative) AoA, and so you needed the loft of the club to get the ball on the optimal launch trajectory, with more spin. Whereas today more players are using lower-loft drivers and positive AoA to achieve the optimal launch trajectory, with less spin. 

 

If that's the case, then the Hogan diagram would naturally have driver ball position farther back in the stance relative to someone who intends positive AoA. Because he would be intending to hit it at a different point of his swing arc. 

The old tour pros would have a negative AoA with driver.  You're probably right in that it had to do with the equipment and balls they were using.  The balls spun more and accuracy was emphasized over distance back then.  Seems as though the modern way to hit driver is to hit up on to get that high launch/low spin combo to maximize distance off the tee with the modern heads. 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, GoTime said:

 

wh...what

Pretty straight forward.  

[noodle3872]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Pretty straight forward.  

@MonteScheinblum I keep my toes parallel to target line (train track) on all stock swings with all clubs. Does my practice create a problem that using Hogan’s open stance with wedges transitioning to closed with driver alleviates? 

[HoganHO]

I am assuming that the hitting up has been an issue for my fairways/long irons as well—particularly when on the tee. Definitely going to experiment more with the hitting down feel.

[Wahnamch]

I literally just registered to say thank you for starting this thread. It is helping me get my head around my driver problems. Not all solved yet, but making headway. So .... thanks again and I'll keep watching and learning.

[Andygolderson]

On 1/8/2023 at 1:08 AM, Zitlow said:

 

The left arm is the radius of the swing and it's attached to the left shoulder. The left arm is guided by the left shoulder and moves dynamically as the right wrist and arm fold in the backswing and unfold in the downswing. 

 

The pivot separates the clubhead from the ball in the backswing. Small pivot small arc big pivot big arc. The bigger the arc the more time to accelerate the clubhead creating velocity. The pivot also helps to get the body on the proper plane to aim the club at the ball. 

 

The hands and wrists move with the arms but they work the club independently to aim the shaft and clubface on plane the plane the ball is on in the backswing. In the downswing they produce speed as the right elbow and wrist unfold snapping the clubhead into the ball. 

 

In the downswing the pivot if done correctly adds body mass to the club and puts the torso in position to hit the ball with the thrown clubhead. 

This sounds pretty intellegent, i'm in 😄 I've subconciously noticed this as i progress to imrpvoe my driver swing in that i use the left arm as the leding indicator for the setup, as you mention, in hopes the trail arm is following, rather than flipping or pushing through.

 

 

On 1/8/2023 at 3:05 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Pretty straight forward.  

 

I also like this approach for a single position. i did it for a while and then i think i've changed too many variables that it doesn't fit 100% anymore. I'm applying it for anything longer than a 7 iron, and putting wedges a bit more on the back foot.

However, i don't like to increase the stance width, somehow i get stuck and lose rotation with a wider stance and just end up pulling the ball, which i assume is due to a more up-down swing, as oppose to a rotational pivot.

[KMeloney]

7 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

I've subconciously noticed this as i progress to imrpvoe my driver swing in that i use the left arm as the leding indicator for the setup, as you mention, in hopes the trail arm is following, rather than flipping or pushing through.

 

You should check out the "Do you throw or twist?" thread. At least in the most recent pages of threads, the discussion is about the idea of "hitting" vs "swinging." In the "hitting" swing, the swing is powered with the right/trail arm applying all of the power and speed while the left arm mostly provides structure. So, I'd say there's nothing wrong with feeling like you're applying power through your trail arm (just maybe improper and/or incongruous ways of doing it).

[Andygolderson]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:49 PM, KMeloney said:

 

You should check out the "Do you throw or twist?" thread. At least in the most recent pages of threads, the discussion is about the idea of "hitting" vs "swinging." In the "hitting" swing, the swing is powered with the right/trail arm applying all of the power and speed while the left arm mostly provides structure. So, I'd say there's nothing wrong with feeling like you're applying power through your trail arm (just maybe improper and/or incongruous ways of doing it).

i think i'm hitting, sounds about right. It's also preventing me from getting any more speed. When i try to keep the hands still and rotate through the swing, i feel like i can never follow through. just yesterday i was thinking, i feel like i'm really playing baseball when hitting driver, so it's a coincidence to read now, as i'm thinking also to practise getting rotation to swing, rather than hit.

[KMeloney]

12 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

i think i'm hitting, sounds about right. It's also preventing me from getting any more speed. When i try to keep the hands still and rotate through the swing, i feel like i can never follow through. just yesterday i was thinking, i feel like i'm really playing baseball when hitting driver, so it's a coincidence to read now, as i'm thinking also to practise getting rotation to swing, rather than hit.

 

To be clear, there's not a lack of rotation with "hitting." In fact, you really need to be open to the target enough to be able to pour on the power, or you'll "run out of right arm" early and likely hit the ball left all day. A ton of power can be applied in the hitting swing, so it's not the slower/weaker option (in case you're thinking it is).

[Zitlow]

14 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

i think i'm hitting, sounds about right. It's also preventing me from getting any more speed. When i try to keep the hands still and rotate through the swing, i feel like i can never follow through. just yesterday i was thinking, i feel like i'm really playing baseball when hitting driver, so it's a coincidence to read now, as i'm thinking also to practise getting rotation to swing, rather than hit.

Similar to throwing a baseball. The body, arm and hand are sequenced from the feet up in a domino affect.

 

 

Like cracking a whip, the heaviest part of the whip the handle passes energy down the whip as it tapers and becomes lighter until it reaches the lightest part the tip which breaks the sound barrier. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Zitlow

[ALIF]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:41 AM, Wahnamch said:

I literally just registered to say thank you for starting this thread. It is helping me get my head around my driver problems. Not all solved yet, but making headway. So .... thanks again and I'll keep watching and learning.

Welcome! I hope you enjoy this crazy place.