Steelfiber and Recoil iron shafts - flex?

[Climbhard]

I've seen it a 100 times.  Steelfiber plays stiff (perhaps a whole flex stiffer) to flex and Recoil plays to flex.  Just pulled this from the Titleist site.  Not by cpm!  Thoughts?

[animalgolfs]

My take: Quoting - Each individual will respond differently to each shaft.

 

I play Recoil 110F5 ssx1 in irons after demoing various weight/flex. SF95s felt like rebar to me - Recoil 95 just feel too lively and I hit moon balls into the wind. 

 

To each their own.

[golfinbrad]

That looks like a chart from the Titleist website.  Not sure I would put much stock into that.  UST and Aerotech both have swing speed recommendations on their site.  There is a difference.  Keep in mind Kuchar an Snedeker both played i90 stiff in them.  I have hit both and do feel there is a difference between the 2 flexes.  I got very similar results from SF in stiff and Recoils x-stiff.  For reference my SS is 110-115 with the driver. 

[NRJyzr]

My impression is that those who think Steelfiber play a flex stiffer are not coming from DG.  Compared to DG, they're a bit stiffer in the heavier weights, but the i95 is really close to the same flex in Dynamic Gold.

 

Wishon shaft profile data below.  I don't have Recoil data, I'm sorry to say....

 

[gripandrip]

9 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

My impression is that those who think Steelfiber play a flex stiffer are not coming from DG.  Compared to DG, they're a bit stiffer in the heavier weights, but the i95 is really close to the same flex in Dynamic Gold.

 

Wishon shaft profile data below.  I don't have Recoil data, I'm sorry to say....

 

This. I came from DG S300's to SF i95S. No issues whatsoever.

[mizuno player]

I played recoil proto 125 f5 

Steelfibers i110x

 

Steelfibers did not feel stiffer to me. They felt different. 

 

I didn't particularly like the steelfibers. I lost distance and dispersion. It probably had to do with the difference in feel for me. Couldn't get the timing right for the life of me. 

 

I found the 125 proto f5 to feel very similar to x100. With lower spin. 

 

Of course I ended up in Fuji graphite shaft. Only because I'm odd. 

 

 

 

[golfinbrad]

No question weight plays a huge factor.  Steelfibers and Recoils do have very different feels and they will vary per person.  To me the Recoils had more of a distinct kick where the Steelfibers felt more one piece.

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, Climbhard said:

I've seen it a 100 times.  Steelfiber plays stiff (perhaps a whole flex stiffer) to flex and Recoil plays to flex.  Just pulled this from the Titleist site.  Not by cpm!  Thoughts?

 

 

Full flex? not even close.    I found soft stepping the steelfiber i95 S got it pretty close to the Recoil 95 F4.  But that's me - YRMV.

 

What people feel about the i-series steelfibers will almost always be dependent on their past shaft history.   People coming from TT DG or C-taper - or PX shafts  will think they  are true to flex.   Someone coming from a typical off the shelf stock graphite shaft, they are going to feel like they are at least a full flex stiffer than what they are used to.

 

Just goes to show how useless and meaningless flex labels (and even butt frequency) really are when it comes to judging stiffness feel.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Thayneil]

16 hours ago, Climbhard said:

I've seen it a 100 times.  Steelfiber plays stiff (perhaps a whole flex stiffer) to flex and Recoil plays to flex.  Just pulled this from the Titleist site.  Not by cpm!  Thoughts?

that chart shows  Recoils  stiffer than Steelfibre in cpms  (by 13)  but higher in torque

 

Dynacraft (hireko now)  used a formula  that combined  the two  to   calculate  a  swing speed that suited

 

 

 

 

[Drivingrangehero]

16 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

My impression is that those who think Steelfiber play a flex stiffer are not coming from DG.  Compared to DG, they're a bit stiffer in the heavier weights, but the i95 is really close to the same flex in Dynamic Gold.

 

Wishon shaft profile data below.  I don't have Recoil data, I'm sorry to say....

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/9f462c21c1015647e0dccd5b561a219a6d226dc96886f2627d5dfb4d2e65606b/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/9f462c21c1015647e0dccd5b561a219a6d226dc96886f2627d5dfb4d2e65606b/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/image.png.3f04178d559dc610148b35ed0b2a49ed.png

I feel like the SF is like the PX in the sense that, if they feel too boardy or stiff, you are in the wrong flex, but they feel active when the flex is right. 

 

Silly question, it might fall into the subjective category, where in this beam layout do most people feel a shaft is too soft or too stiff, handle, Mid, Tip? My question is, how can one use this chart, to successfully pick out a shaft that “ought” to fit their swing? 
 

i recently went from Modus 105s to SFi110 and the way I would describe the difference is that the Modus 105 had more of a softer linear feel, while the SF i110R’s have more of a hinge with a kick at the bottom. I had a Modus 120s in a 4i and it felt nothing like the Modus 105s, yet is very similar in this chart all the way to 11” mark.  
 

I know that we react differently to shafts and it’s not what the robot produced, I  launch something that I feel is too stiff and boardy higher (KBS 130,  PX6.5 compared to a DG s300 or Modus 120s) 

 

So the 11” mark on the SF i110r is 947, while the Modus 120s is 904 and the Modus 105s is 803, which I would think that the 803 would have a higher spin rate than a 904 and the 947 higher than 904 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

The spin rate between my Modus 105s  (803) and SF i110r (947) is not noticeable, but the Modus 120s (904) is much lower spin for me (same with PX LZ) 

 

I haven’t seen a chart on the Aldila Xtorsion Copper 60TX or the Aldila NV 2kxv green, but they have a similar feeling kick to me. The NV feels closer to the tip than the Copper, at least to me it does, but the chart may say something different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

[IC3BURGH]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

What people feel about the i-series steelfibers will almost always be dependent on their past shaft history.   People coming from TT DG or C-taper - or PX shafts  will think they  are true to flex.   Someone coming from a typical off the shelf stock graphite shaft, they are going to feel like they are at least a full flex stiffer than what they are used to.

 

 

I think Stuart (per usual) nails it here.

 

To emphasize, I think that Steelfiber plays fairly linear. No kick or liveliness. For some (me), that seems to work. For others, it seems overly stiff and unpleasant.

[Stuart_G]

43 minutes ago, Drivingrangehero said:

Silly question, it might fall into the subjective category, where in this beam layout do most people feel a shaft is too soft or too stiff, handle, Mid, Tip? My question is, how can one use this chart, to successfully pick out a shaft that “ought” to fit their swing? 
 

 

You can't directly use the chart to determine what will be a good fit in that way.    All you can do is use it to find what might be a better fit relative to other shafts that have been tried but have been found to be too soft or too firm in some way.   e.g.    shaft A might be too soft and shaft B might be too firm - so look for a shaft with numbers between those two.

 

The problem is figuring out which numbers to use.   Most people (despite claims to the contrary) can't really tell where the feel is coming from in a shaft very well or reliably.   Some few can distinguish tip stiffness from butt/mid but most really can't distinguish between butt and mid.   So finding which numbers to use can itself be part of the trial and error fitting process.

 

A very rough (but unreliable) generalization is that butt/mid stiffness tends to be more prominent in transition while tip stiffness tends to be more prominent during the unloading or release.    But that's not to say each can't have an influence in the other part of the swing.

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Stuart_G

[golfinbrad]

5 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You can't directly use the chart to determine what will be a good fit in that way.    All you can do is use it to find what might be a better fit relative to other shafts that have been tried but have been found to be too soft or too firm in some way.   e.g.    shaft A might be too soft and shaft B might be too firm - so look for a shaft with numbers between those two.

 

The problem is figuring out which numbers to use.   Most people (despite claims to the contrary) can't really tell where the feel is coming from in a shaft very well or reliably.   Some few can distinguish tip stiffness from butt/mid but most really can't distinguish between butt and mid.   So finding which numbers to use can itself be part of the trial and error fitting process.

 

A very rough (but unreliable) generalization is that butt/mid stiffness tends to be more prominent in transition while tip stiffness tends to be more prominent during the unloading or release.    But that's not to say each can't have an influence in the other part of the swing.

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more how import feel is and how one player interprets the feel one way and another player the other.  That is why buying blind or going off a random person is difficult.

 

[Climbhard]

So many good comments here!

[Dpavs]

The lower torque rating on the SF suggest that it has a stiffer tip to me. If I am correct that stiffer tip is usually going to impact how the shaft feels to someone. I don't particularly like stiff tipped shafts but others do. It's all a matter of perception and preference IMO.

[Stuart_G]

38 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

The lower torque rating on the SF suggest that it has a stiffer tip to me. If I am correct that stiffer tip is usually going to impact how the shaft feels to someone.

 

Yes, the SF i-series does have a slightly stiffer tip than the Recoils.  But just be careful, trying to make correlations between torsional stiffness and longitudinal stiffness can be very misleading - especially with graphite shafts.   The two can be manipulated by the designers fairly independently.

 

Yes, for some tip stiffness can have a big influence on feel.   But for others it may not.  Everyone is different in how they might be sensitive to different parts of the shaft.

[Drivingrangehero]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

The problem is figuring out which numbers to use.   Most people (despite claims to the contrary) can't really tell where the feel is coming from in a shaft very well or reliably. 

I have a general feeling when the weight and flex is right, but if it’s too stiff and heavy, I don’t know where it’s too stiff, it just feels awful everywhere to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

A very rough (but unreliable) generalization is that butt/mid stiffness tends to be more prominent in transition while tip stiffness tends to be more prominent during the unloading or release.    But that's not to say each can't have an influence in the other part of the swing.

 

if a shaft is too soft, I feel it in my transition and my timing is off, so equate that with the handle or mid, but I can’t say with certainty. 
 

An Example, two of my playing partners have shafts that are “blue profiles”. One is an older model, Diamana s+ x5ct 72 in x flex (it’s blue with flowers near the grip) , and the other is a Tensei AV Raw Blue 75x or S?. The Diamana feels a bit too stiff, (I notice it I’m my transition, so I assume it’s the handle or mid, while the Tensei feels soft in the middle to me……. what that shows on paper may be a different story. 
 

The Modus 105s is clearly softer than the SF i110r at the tip, but they both feel crisp and impact to me and comfortable in my transition, and produce around the same numbers as far as spin goes, even trajectory is similar whereas the Modus 120s which is closer to the SF i110r in the tip, flights lower and spins less for me. 
 

The SF vs Recoil stiffness is hard for me to comment on, I’ve only hit the recoil 110 f4 and the SF i110s + i110R. The SF i110s felt much too stiff, while I didn’t notice the stiffness on the recoil, I guess it felt closer to the SFi110R, than it did to the SFi110S, I did notice how muted it was at impact, which was a dealbreaker for me. 

[Pepperturbo]

22 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

My impression is that those who think Steelfiber play a flex stiffer are not coming from DG.  Compared to DG, they're a bit stiffer in the heavier weights, but the i95 is really close to the same flex in Dynamic Gold.

 

Wishon shaft profile data below.  I don't have Recoil data, I'm sorry to say....

 

What do those columns mean?

 

Years back I played DGS300 then DGX100, to Rifle 6.5 then PX 6.0 & PX 5.5 to SF i110cw "S" with i125cw "S" in wedges.  I also have i95cw "S" in another set.  Wishon makes charts, but in my hands, DGS300/S400 doesn't feel or play like SF i110cw "S or Steelfiber i95's"; which play stiffer that S300.

[Stuart_G]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

What do those columns mean?

 

Frequencies measured at various distances from the tip of the shaft.

Tom talks a little bit about it here:

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/73753/wishon-shaft-frequency-can-be-misleading/

[Pepperturbo]

33 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Frequencies measured at various distances from the tip of the shaft.

Tom talks a little bit about it here:

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/73753/wishon-shaft-frequency-can-be-misleading/

Thanks, that's what I figured, but it's always good to ask.

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Thanks, that's what I figured, but it's always good to ask.

 

One key thing to realize is that he uses a much heavier weight than is normally used for frequency measurement (so they can get useful values when measuring much shorter sections of the shaft near the tip).    So it means you can't compare these numbers near the butt with numbers from any other source showing butt frequencies.

 

[el_caporal]

I don’t understand how SF 95S felt much stiffer than 110S, to me. Really liked 110, but 95 was offensive. Hit 95 in an i500 tho…ouch. 110 was a ZX5, NOT apples to apples. 

 

Ended up in Recoil 110, Apex Pro… “muted” is fair but I’m (trying)/ taking my iron tempo to a place that matches. Biggest concern for me was torque… been a non-issue.
 

SF did seem superior in workability, but maybe that was more feel/ feedback… 

[Ri_Redneck]

Feel does not come from profile alone. You can have two shafts with identical profiles, but torque and weighting can make them feel different. SF i Series have lower torque than Recoil shafts and will FEEL firmer/stiffer/boardier (or whatever you want to call it) to most everyone. I like to describe that feel characteristic as "tightness" and I REQUIRE a tight feeling shaft. It feels like I am in total control of the clubhead.

 

The Aldila RIP Tour 115s I play were unpopular because the combination of torque & profile they were designed with made them harsh feeling to most golfers. They are the best feeling graphite iron shaft I have ever played. I have clubs with SF i110, Recoil 125 Protos and Fuji Pro Tour 115s. The RIP Tours feel MUCH tighter than any of the other shafts. I have seen their profile compared to the others and it's not that different, yet they have a MUCH different feel and torque is the only other spec that can be causing it. You have to also take the balance point of the shafts into consideration. A low balance point shaft will require less headweight than a high balance point shaft to achieve the same SW. Extra headweight, even though the SW may be the same, will make the shaft feel softer.

 

BT

[Spinozist]

...Don't forget Steelfiber also has their "Flight Control" line, which I believe are said to play a significantly more "active" profile than the i line. I game them and love them, but I have a super-smooth swing and generally play flexes (/cpm/torques) that are soft wrt to swing speed. 

[hammergolf]

I’ve played both and don’t know what the cpm’s were but the SF played a full flex stiffer than the Recoils did.

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I’ve played both and don’t know what the cpm’s were but the SF played a full flex stiffer than the Recoils did.

 

Just another example of how subjective feel can be.   To me the SF i-series was like hard stepping the Recoil a single time.

 

FYI - Butt frequency doesn't really mean much when comparing different shaft models - so those numbers wouldn't help any way.

[kell]

10 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Feel does not come from profile alone. You can have two shafts with identical profiles, but torque and weighting can make them feel different. SF i Series have lower torque than Recoil shafts and will FEEL firmer/stiffer/boardier (or whatever you want to call it) to most everyone. I like to describe that feel characteristic as "tightness" and I REQUIRE a tight feeling shaft. It feels like I am in total control of the clubhead.

 

The Aldila RIP Tour 115s I play were unpopular because the combination of torque & profile they were designed with made them harsh feeling to most golfers. They are the best feeling graphite iron shaft I have ever played. I have clubs with SF i110, Recoil 125 Protos and Fuji Pro Tour 115s. The RIP Tours feel MUCH tighter than any of the other shafts. I have seen their profile compared to the others and it's not that different, yet they have a MUCH different feel and torque is the only other spec that can be causing it. You have to also take the balance point of the shafts into consideration. A low balance point shaft will require less headweight than a high balance point shaft to achieve the same SW. Extra headweight, even though the SW may be the same, will make the shaft feel softer.

 

BT

Redneck,how did the fuji pro 115s feel. Im looking for a 115 gram graphite shaft to  play to strong regular. I know those shafts are tour stiff only. Do you think by soft stepping I could get down to SR?

[Ri_Redneck]

8 hours ago, kell said:

Redneck,how did the fuji pro 115s feel. Im looking for a 115 gram graphite shaft to  play to strong regular. I know those shafts are tour stiff only. Do you think by soft stepping I could get down to SR?

I got the S flex and trimmed them per Fuji instructions and installed in my black chrome MP4s and MOId to 2850 like all my other irons. They're slightly softer feeling than my RIP Tours and not quite as tight, but they swing good and dispersion is no worse than my gamers. I had a set of RIP tours in the MP4s in the beginning, but I had a local pro offer to buy the head. After pulling the shafts and putting them into another set of irons, he backed out on the deal. I finally decided to put the Fujis in there to try them out. Good shaft IMHO. Even though that are not constant weight.

 

BT

Edited February 12, 2023 by Ri_Redneck

[chisag]

17 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I’ve played both and don’t know what the cpm’s were but the SF played a full flex stiffer than the Recoils did.

 

 

... Having played graphite in my irons for years including NV Tour 130, NV Pro 105, VS Proto 100. I found the Recoil 95s to play well for my smooth transition swing in S flex. Steelfibers were so successful on the LPGA Tour and I wanted to give them a shot and installed some i95's in S flex and really hated them finding them unresponsive and felt like x flex. One round was enough but just in case I played them a 2nd round before selling them. Interestingly I wasn't more than a few yards shorter but they just felt like I was not bending them at all and they were a good 10 yds shorter. I am a feel player so it had much more to do with feel than actual performance. 

... Talking to a Steelfiber VP at the pga show, he took a look at my swing and said he would recommend I drop a full flex, not soft step and I would love them. Handed me a R flex and he was so right, I loved the feel and performance. Now to be fair, he didn't say they play 1 full flex stronger although I have worded it that way in the past. What he said was for my swing he would go down one full flex. Fwiw, I hit my 7 iron 165 so not a big hitter but not short either. Once I switched to the i95 in R flex it became my favorite shaft.  

[hammergolf]

45 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Having played graphite in my irons for years including NV Tour 130, NV Pro 105, VS Proto 100. I found the Recoil 95s to play well for my smooth transition swing in S flex. Steelfibers were so successful on the LPGA Tour and I wanted to give them a shot and installed some i95's in S flex and really hated them finding them unresponsive and felt like x flex. One round was enough but just in case I played them a 2nd round before selling them. Interestingly I wasn't more than a few yards shorter but they just felt like I was not bending them at all and they were a good 10 yds shorter. I am a feel player so it had much more to do with feel than actual performance. 

... Talking to a Steelfiber VP at the pga show, he took a look at my swing and said he would recommend I drop a full flex, not soft step and I would love them. Handed me a R flex and he was so right, I loved the feel and performance. Now to be fair, he didn't say they play 1 full flex stronger although I have worded it that way in the past. What he said was for my swing he would go down one full flex. Fwiw, I hit my 7 iron 165 so not a big hitter but not short either. Once I switched to the i95 in R flex it became my favorite shaft.  

At the time I wanted to go to graphite I was a stiff steel player. I looked at tour players who were playing the shaft at that time (Kuchar, Couples, and Snedeker) all playing stiff knowing they swung it harder than I did, so I ordered i95R and they were great until I hurt my shoulder. Then I switched to Recoil 95R and they played so much softer. Now I’m in MMT and I like them the most.