What prevents stronger lofted irons to still maintain 4 degree gaps? Is it a CG thing?

[JermWRX]

Title kind of says it all. Why can't stronger lofted iron sets still maintain 4 degree gaps? For instance Mizuno 923 HMP is:

5- 22

6- 25

7- 28.5

8- 33

9- 37.5

P- 42.5

G- 48

 

My gaps in distance are almost all 15 yards or more. 

 

What if I had them bent to:

22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46

 

Am I changing the integrity of the head? The cg? Huge changes in bounce or offset? Am I missing something? Thanks!

 

 

[el_caporal]

4 hours ago, JermWRX said:

Title kind of says it all. Why can't stronger lofted iron sets still maintain 4 degree gaps? For instance Mizuno 923 HMP is:

5- 22

6- 25

7- 28.5

8- 33

9- 37.5

P- 42.5

G- 48

 

My gaps in distance are almost all 15 yards or more. 

 

What if I had them bent to:

22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46

 

Am I changing the integrity of the head? The cg? Huge changes in bounce or offset? Am I missing something? Thanks!

 

 

First I’ve seen this. That >8>9>P is kind of alarming? And especially >GW… don’t think I could go w/ set gap w/out bending, and then of course… everything that follows.
 

Why does a “5 iron” need to be 22*…? What 6 non-putter clubs are you fitting in front/ behind? Room for a different flight/ purpose up front I guess, like DI… or 52/56/60. I like DI. Am not big on 60, vs. 58. 

[JermWRX]

5 hours ago, el_caporal said:

First I’ve seen this. That >8>9>P is kind of alarming? And especially >GW… don’t think I could go w/ set gap w/out bending, and then of course… everything that follows.
 

Why does a “5 iron” need to be 22*…? What 6 non-putter clubs are you fitting in front/ behind? Room for a different flight/ purpose up front I guess, like DI… or 52/56/60. I like DI. Am not big on 60, vs. 58. 

I don't game the 5 iron. My irons start at the 6. I just included it so people could see the loft ranges. I've done simulator sessions the last three days. Hit lots of balls. I took out all the bad outliers and these are my carry averages: 

GW 117

PW 136

9     150

8     159

7     175

6     189

 

The set GW is definitely not going to work. I just got new wedges. 52,56,60. I suppose I could dump the GW and get a 46, but then I'll have the same issue from 46*-52*. I don't know, I guess maybe I could sell them and get something more traditionally lofted like i230 or something. I really like the clubs, but I'm not sure what to do about the gaps.

[Ger21]

11 hours ago, JermWRX said:

Why can't stronger lofted iron sets still maintain 4 degree gaps?

Because they are designed for proper distance gapping, not for uniform specs.

 

And most irons have never had 4° gaps in long irons. It's been 3° gaps for decades in long irons.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Ger21

[jvincent]

11 hours ago, JermWRX said:

My gaps in distance are almost all 15 yards or more. 

 

What if I had them bent to:

22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46

 

Am I changing the integrity of the head? The cg? Huge changes in bounce or offset? Am I missing something? Thanks!

 

 

The key is to get your yardage gaps correct.

 

Since you play a 5H and then a 6i you need to use your 5H yardage as a base and then gap your irons down from that based on what you want/need.

 

You likely won't end up changing the loft enough to adversely affect the bounce.

[JermWRX]

7 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

The key is to get your yardage gaps correct.

 

Since you play a 5H and then a 6i you need to use your 5H yardage as a base and then gap your irons down from that based on what you want/need.

 

You likely won't end up changing the loft enough to adversely affect the bounce.

I should've updated my signature. I dropped the 5 hybrid. My fitter said 15 yard gaps are normal, and what I should be looking for. That seems like a lot to me, though. I was hoping it'd be closer to 10 yards, and certainly not 20. I may be looking for something that isn't feasible, however. Thank you for the info on bounce!

[NRJyzr]

12 hours ago, JermWRX said:

What prevents stronger lofted irons to still maintain 4 degree gaps?

 

 

It's the easiest way to keep a set in sequence and get to a very low lofted 5 iron, without having your PW get really stupid.

 

The 3* gaps in Ye Olde Days were due to loft creep, even back in the 1970s (or 60s).

 

[JermWRX]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

It's the easiest way to keep a set in sequence and get to a very low lofted 5 iron, without having your PW get really stupid.

 

The 3* gaps in Ye Olde Days were due to loft creep, even back in the 1970s (or 60s).

 

Thank you! In your opinion, if I had them bent to the lofts I mentioned in the post, would I compromise the integrity of he clubs?

[NRJyzr]

Just now, JermWRX said:

Thank you! In your opinion, if I had them bent to the lofts I mentioned in the post, would I compromise the integrity of he clubs?

 

The only things you're really going to affect are the bounce and the offset.  If neither of those changes cause a problem for you, shouldn't matter.

 

Sorry for the Matrix/Ghostbusters tone to this, but.....   there is no club number.  There is only loft.

 

[MtlJeff]

It's true that 3 degree spacing in longer clubs isn't that new. Sets from 20 years ago had 21 degree 3 irons and then 24 degree 4 irons. Players clubs today this is still common

 

But 5 and 5.5 degree gaps in the scoring clubs (8-PW) is not what was traditional (though 45-50-56-60 is a pretty common wedge setup)

 

As someone pointed out, if you pull 5 irons down to 20 degrees....you have to have big spacing or else you end up with 38 degree wedges, which some companies do actually already have. 

[596]

My 3 wood, 5w, 4h, 5h, 6h and 7h are all 3* gaps. That's 16* through 31*.  After that there's 2 5* gaps and the remaining are 6* gaps from 9 to SW.  

 

I never hit a full shot from inside 150y.  So the bigger gaps in short irons work very well. 

[Klubster]

The numerical gap does not really matter if the clubs are giving you proper distancing gaps between clubs.  With different lofts, lies, length etc. there is no reason to believe a 4 degree difference between an 8 and 9 iron will give you the same distance difference as a 4 degree gap between a 5 and 6 iron.  

[JermWRX]

48 minutes ago, 596 said:

My 3 wood, 5w, 4h, 5h, 6h and 7h are all 3* gaps. That's 16* through 31*.  After that there's 2 5* gaps and the remaining are 6* gaps from 9 to SW.  

 

I never hit a full shot from inside 150y.  So the bigger gaps in short irons work very well. 

I prefer taking full shots all the way down to 100y

[JermWRX]

35 minutes ago, Klubster said:

The numerical gap does not really matter if the clubs are giving you proper distancing gaps between clubs.  With different lofts, lies, length etc. there is no reason to believe a 4 degree difference between an 8 and 9 iron will give you the same distance difference as a 4 degree gap between a 5 and 6 iron.  

But my distancing gaps aren't proper. At least it doesn't seem like they are to me. My simulator results are in a post above

[JermWRX]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

It's true that 3 degree spacing in longer clubs isn't that new. Sets from 20 years ago had 21 degree 3 irons and then 24 degree 4 irons. Players clubs today this is still common

 

But 5 and 5.5 degree gaps in the scoring clubs (8-PW) is not what was traditional (though 45-50-56-60 is a pretty common wedge setup)

 

As someone pointed out, if you pull 5 irons down to 20 degrees....you have to have big spacing or else you end up with 38 degree wedges, which some companies do actually already have. 

I get that. But the 5 iron in this set is 22 degrees. So you could do 4 degree gapping and end up with a 42 degree PW. 

[jetmech879]

3 hours ago, JermWRX said:

Thank you! In your opinion, if I had them bent to the lofts I mentioned in the post, would I compromise the integrity of he clubs?

Absolutely not. A couple degrees weak is no problem for any mizuno iron.

I should also add that I’m with you on the 5 deg gaps. It drives me nuts so I always end up bending mid and short irons weak to get 4 deg gaps from 6 to PW. I also like the slight increase in bounce it adds and touch less offset. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by jetmech879

[MrCook]

Having a 6* gap somewhere between your wedges is common. Lot's of high level/tour players go 46-52 or 50-56, 54-60 is also not uncommon.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, MrCook said:

Having a 6* gap somewhere between your wedges is common. Lot's of high level/tour players go 46-52 or 50-56, 54-60 is also not uncommon.

 

Common with pros, not so much with ams.

 

When you carry your PW 150 yards,  you need bigger distance gaps in the wedges to have  more complete coverage of the needed scoring opportunities.   They also may be playing fewer wedges because they want more clubs at the top end of the set to better manage the distance gaps between driver, the fairways and the longer irons.

 

They are also a LOT better am's at partial shots and controlling distance - something most am's do not do very well.

[ChipNRun]

8 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

When you carry your PW 150 yards,  you need bigger distance gaps in the wedges to have  more complete coverage of the needed scoring opportunities. 

 

Reminds me of a discussion I had with a mini-tour pro who plays out of my club. When I asked about wedge mix, he described this split-out:

 

Driver carry 280 yards or more: four wedges, to have more options for shots inside 150 yards.

Driver carry less than 280 yards: three wedges, to have an extra club at the 220 range to increase chances of GIR.

[JermWRX]

12 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Common with pros, not so much with ams.

 

When you carry your PW 150 yards,  you need bigger distance gaps in the wedges to have  more complete coverage of the needed scoring opportunities.   They also may be playing fewer wedges because they want more clubs at the top end of the set to better manage the distance gaps between driver, the fairways and the longer irons.

 

They are also a LOT better am's at partial shots and controlling distance - something most am's do not do very well.

Bingo. Describes me to the letter. I need wedges that go specific distances. I don't have the time needed to practice half and 3/4 shots enough to be comfortable with how far they'll go. I wanna grab x loft and have it go x yards when I hit it. Point and shoot golf. That's what I prefer to play.

[Albatross Dreamer]

7 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I don't game the 5 iron. My irons start at the 6. I just included it so people could see the loft ranges. I've done simulator sessions the last three days. Hit lots of balls. I took out all the bad outliers and these are my carry averages: 

GW 117

PW 136

9     150

8     159

7     175

6     189

 

 

Based on these numbers why not just bend the GW 1* strong and the 9 & PW 1* weak? Seems like that would allow you to have equal gaps with your clubs

[JermWRX]

3 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Based on these numbers why not just bend the GW 1* strong and the 9 & PW 1* weak? Seems like that would allow you to have equal gaps with your clubs

What about the 16 yards between the 7 & 8?

[Pepperturbo]

18 hours ago, JermWRX said:

Title kind of says it all. Why can't stronger lofted iron sets still maintain 4 degree gaps? For instance Mizuno 923 HMP is:

5- 22

6- 25

7- 28.5

8- 33

9- 37.5

P- 42.5

G- 48

 

My gaps in distance are almost all 15 yards or more. 

 

What if I had them bent to:

22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46

 

Am I changing the integrity of the head? The cg? Huge changes in bounce or offset? Am I missing something? Thanks!

 

 

Boy, are those clubs strong, lofted.

 

Your gaps are purportedly 15 yards, but what is your CARRY yardage with each club.  That's far more important too proper gapping.  How far we hit a club can greatly vary depending on condition.  For most people, adjusting lofts doesn't necessarily mean an increase or decrease in yardages.  Could mean just a different spin rate.

 

Example, my buddy has a lofted 24' 5i, his carry distance maybe 155 yds, but it's his 165yd long club.  He doesn't know carry yardages, the reason his ball is usually very long or short of his intended target yardage.  I've played with him a great deal and tend to watch and measure his shots per club, against mine.

 

My T100s 5i is 25', it's 170 yard carry 175yds long.  Optimal conditions as far as 185yds. (4-22°, 5-25°, 6-28°, 7-32°, 8-36°, 9-40°, PW-44°, W-48°) SW-52', LW-58'.

My 620 MB 5i is 27' and 168 yards carry, 173 yds long.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[el_caporal]

Re; wedges… I think that’s where a ton of us Ams go wrong/ get led down the wrong path by these strong lofts. If irons are CB, wedges should prob be CB or something w/ more “forgiveness”… up to 48, even 52/54. Just b/c a PW may be ~42… doing myself a disservice if I bag a 46-50 Vokey. IMHO. 
 

CBX should be more popular, it’s pretty ugly but would save a lot of <125 grief for us 10-20+. I just grabbed a 48… but changed my mind on Apex vs. Apex/ Pro combo, so now am debating included Pro 48 vs. CBX 48. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

20 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

What about the 16 yards between the 7 & 8?

I personally wouldn't care, but if you wanted could bend the 6 & 7 1* weak too. There's not really a perfect gapping strategy, just as the way you mentioned doing it in the first post would likely give you some weird gaps too.

[JermWRX]

12 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Boy, are those clubs strong, lofted.

 

Your gaps are purportedly 15 yards, but what is your CARRY yardage with each club.  That's far more important too proper gapping.  How far we hit a club can greatly vary depending on condition.  For most people, adjusting lofts doesn't necessarily mean an increase or decrease in yardages.  Could mean just a different spin rate.

 

Example, my buddy has a lofted 24' 5i, his carry distance maybe 155 yds, but it's his 165yd long club.  He doesn't know carry yardages, the reason his ball is usually very long or short of his intended target yardage.  I've played with him a great deal and tend to watch and measure his shots per club, against mine.

 

My T100s 5i is 25', it's 170 yard carry 175yds long.  Optimal conditions as far as 185yds. (4-22°, 5-25°, 6-28°, 7-32°, 8-36°, 9-40°, PW-44°, W-48°) SW-52', LW-58'.

My 620 MB 5i is 27' and 168 yards carry, 173 yds long.

My carry yardages are in a post above

[JermWRX]

10 minutes ago, el_caporal said:

Re; wedges… I think that’s where a ton of us Ams go wrong/ get led down the wrong path by these strong lofts. If irons are CB, wedges should prob be CB or something w/ more “forgiveness”… up to 48, even 52/54. Just b/c a PW may be ~42… doing myself a disservice if I bag a 46-50 Vokey. IMHO. 
 

CBX should be more popular, it’s pretty ugly but would save a lot of <125 grief for us 10-20+. I just grabbed a 48… but changed my mind on Apex vs. Apex/ Pro combo, so now am debating included Pro 48 vs. CBX 48. 

I agree on the CBX. I gamed one and didn't mind it too much. I do like the smaller head and less offset on the HMP. I wish someone made forgiving wedges that were more in line with the HMP shaping.

[Jmccas]

Just now, JermWRX said:

I agree on the CBX. I gamed one and didn't mind it too much. I do like the smaller head and less offset on the HMP. I wish someone made forgiving wedges that were more in line with the HMP shaping.

Check out Ping Glides and TM MG3 Hight Toes. Both forgiving wedges; I previously gamed HMP with Glides and they flowed well. 

[JermWRX]

Just now, Jmccas said:

Check out Ping Glides and TM MG3 Hight Toes. Both forgiving wedges; I previously gamed HMP with Glides and they flowed well. 

Will do. I have an MG3 High Toe 60, and I do like it. Thanks!

[el_caporal]

26 minutes ago, Jmccas said:

Check out Ping Glides and TM MG3 Hight Toes. Both forgiving wedges; I previously gamed HMP with Glides and they flowed well. 

Have both… and agree! OCD about matching 54/58… so when I wanted to move on from my 3.0 Eye2 58… booted the 54 SS. Now have 54/58 in new Hi-Toe and much prefer the straighter leading edge on TM’s when it comes to full and 3/4 shots. And on 58, both hosel and club bulk (lack of)… much more appealing. 
 

Eye2 58 is/ was auto-bunker, just not much more. SS 54 was all around solid, real good around greens… but I didn’t like to press or go after it. Decent results, low confidence. I want to be excited/ confident pulling from 60-100. Glide kind of “slipped out” at times. 
 

This CBX 48 is very solid, too. Just doesn’t flow w/ the Apex Pros like it would have the standard Apex. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by el_caporal