What prevents stronger lofted irons to still maintain 4 degree gaps? Is it a CG thing?

[mantan]

44 minutes ago, el_caporal said:

Re; wedges… I think that’s where a ton of us Ams go wrong/ get led down the wrong path by these strong lofts. If irons are CB, wedges should prob be CB or something w/ more “forgiveness”… up to 48, even 52/54. Just b/c a PW may be ~42… doing myself a disservice if I bag a 46-50 Vokey. IMHO. 
 

CBX should be more popular, it’s pretty ugly but would save a lot of <125 grief for us 10-20+. I just grabbed a 48… but changed my mind on Apex vs. Apex/ Pro combo, so now am debating included Pro 48 vs. CBX 48. 

 

I did the same thing. My ZX5s have a 44* PW. I ended up going with a 48* CBX2 because I had a huge gap around 110 yards. For a generic amateur like me, anything inside 100-140 is my 'go zone' where I really try to stick something tight. Quality shots from that distance have a lot bigger impact on my score than nuked 24* '6-irons'.  At 160-200, I'm just trying to get myself close enough to give me a shot at up and down.

 

 

[Rosco1216]

If those are your gaps..just weaken pw and 9i 1* to start. 

[el_caporal]

1 minute ago, mantan said:

 

I did the same thing. My ZX5s have a 44* PW. I ended up going with a 48* CBX2 because I had a huge gap around 110 yards. For a generic amateur like me, anything inside 100-140 is my 'go zone' where I really try to stick something tight. Quality shots from that distance have a lot bigger impact on my score than nuked 24* '6-irons'.  At 160-200, I'm just trying to get myself close enough to give me a shot at up and down.

 

 

100% …I’ll admit falling victim to “bag appeal.” But finally, just want to score and score alone. Most my missed opps last year came at 80-110. 
 

Apex set I was holding were 5-PW (43*). No brainer w/ that set. The /Pro combo came 5-AW. Am hitting 44* PW + 49* AW very well… but now a big advocate of CBX. Think up to 52/54 it could serve many. Throw a bunker beast in Hi-Toe/ Glide over the top and go. 

[JermWRX]

15 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

If those are your gaps..just weaken pw and 9i 1* to start. 

Nothing with the 7 and 8? They're 16 yards apart

[Rosco1216]

5 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

Nothing with the 7 and 8? They're 16 yards apart

No. Currently your gaps are…

19

14

9

16

14 

 

tweaking the PW 1-2* weak will shrink the 19y gap and tweaking the 9i 1-2*weak with keep the same 14y gap and increase the 9y gap.   If all of your irons gaps are 13-16y you will be just fine. 
 

 

[Cactus Jack]

28 minutes ago, el_caporal said:

100% …I’ll admit falling victim to “bag appeal.” But finally, just want to score and score alone. Most my missed opps last year came at 80-110. 
 

Apex set I was holding were 5-PW (43*). No brainer w/ that set. The /Pro combo came 5-AW. Am hitting 44* PW + 49* AW very well… but now a big advocate of CBX. Think up to 52/54 it could serve many. Throw a bunker beast in Hi-Toe/ Glide over the top and go. 

I play ZX5s all adjusted to 4* loft gaps. I have consistent 14 yard gaps from 4i - LW. Before my long iron distance was compressed, miss hits all crossed over, and 4-6 became largely redundant. Gaps in scoring clubs were to wide resulting in more partial shots than I want. Adjusting lofts was a big win, but biggest win…adding a full set of CBX to the bag!

 

[JermWRX]

12 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

I play ZX5s all adjusted to 4* loft gaps. I have consistent 14 yard gaps from 4i - LW. Before my long iron distance was compressed, miss hits all crossed over, and 4-6 became largely redundant. Gaps in scoring clubs were to wide resulting in more partial shots than I want. Adjusting lofts was a big win, but biggest win…adding a full set of CBX to the bag!

 

Did you find a greater level of consistency with the CBX over the T22's?

[el_caporal]

18 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

I play ZX5s all adjusted to 4* loft gaps. I have consistent 14 yard gaps from 4i - LW. Before my long iron distance was compressed, miss hits all crossed over, and 4-6 became largely redundant. Gaps in scoring clubs were to wide resulting in more partial shots than I want. Adjusting lofts was a big win, but biggest win…adding a full set of CBX to the bag!

 

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Boom!! That looks like a stress-free and smooth method ~80-130. How’d it improve scoring? And how you liking 56/60 green side and sand? 
 

Edit: duh, looking at what’s booted 🤪

Edited January 21, 2023 by el_caporal

[el_caporal]

1 hour ago, Jmccas said:

Check out Ping Glides and TM MG3 Hight Toes. Both forgiving wedges; I previously gamed HMP with Glides and they flowed well. 

Haven’t hit but would add the “low end” PXG wedge also looks/ sounds like a good option… in line with same thought/ theme.

[TheDominator273]

In my experience it would benefit most players to have smaller gaps in the higher lofted clubs.  Majority of people struggle with partial shots and this let's you be more precise closer to the green.  In the lower lofted clubs the lofts can be greater to avoid your gaps bunching up.  Unfortunately it seems OEMs prefer it the other way with up to 5-6* gaps in the wedges and 3* gaps in the long irons.

[JermWRX]

4 minutes ago, TheDominator273 said:

In my experience it would benefit most players to have smaller gaps in the higher lofted clubs.  Majority of people struggle with partial shots and this lets you be more precise closer to the green.  In the lower lofted clubs the lofts can be greater to avoid your gaps bunching up.  Unfortunately it seems OEMs prefer it the other way with up to 5-6* gaps in the wedges and 3* gaps in the long irons.

My game agrees. I don't like partial shots. I don't have time to practice how far partial shots go. I want wedges that consistently hit the same number.

[Rosco1216]

1 hour ago, TheDominator273 said:

In my experience it would benefit most players to have smaller gaps in the higher lofted clubs.  Majority of people struggle with partial shots and this let's you be more precise closer to the green.  In the lower lofted clubs the lofts can be greater to avoid your gaps bunching up.  Unfortunately it seems OEMs prefer it the other way with up to 5-6* gaps in the wedges and 3* gaps in the long irons.

Unfortunately this really isn’t applicable in the real world, at least for most amateurs. Closer lofts in the higher lofts will simply blend it all together because the vast majority of amateurs don’t have the skill to consistently strike a 56/58/60/62 lob wedge to really have a dependable standard carry yardage on a full swing. A perfect strike will go one distance, a groove low with go 8-10 yards longer and groove high with go 8-10 yards shorter.  All of these these would be considered good strikes by a 8hc but could easily have 20 yard carry difference. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Rosco1216

[JermWRX]

33 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

Unfortunately this really isn’t applicable in the real world, at least for most amateurs. Closer lofts in the higher lofts will simply blend it all together because the vast majority of amateurs don’t have the skill to consistently strike a 56/58/60/62 lob wedge to really have a dependable standard carry yardage on a full swing. A perfect strike will go one distance, a groove low with go 8-10 yards longer and groove high with go 8-10 yards shorter.  All of these these would be considered good strikes by a 8hc but could easily have 20 yard carry difference. 

This is me. Inconsistency in my wedge game is easily my biggest flaw. I can point and shoot my way around a course and putt pretty well. 110 and in is an issue. 80 and in is a big issue.

[Rosco1216]

12 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

This is me. Inconsistency in my wedge game is easily my biggest flaw. I can point and shoot my way around a course and putt pretty well. 110 and in is an issue. 80 and in is a big issue.

You just need to develop a repeatable less than full motion swing. Then take that swing with your 48 and then a 54 and 58/60 and you will be able to consistently “have a swing” for basically everything 60 yards or more. 

[mgoblue83]

I don't have a problem with low CG loft jacked irons for players that need help but it's insane to me how many people have a bag makeup that goes from a 42 degree game improvement PW (light shaft, hollow body, wide sole, offset) to a 52, 56, 60  specialty wedge set with none of those features and heavy steel shafts. 

 

It's like ?!

 

Ping probably does it the best where they can continue the iron set into a U, S, L wedges that perform similarly and won't have giant distance gaps. 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by mgoblue83

[JermWRX]

26 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

I don't have a problem with low CG loft jacked irons for players that need help but it's insane to me how many people have a bag makeup that goes from a 42 degree game improvement PW (light shaft, hollow body, wide sole, offset) to a 52, 56, 60  specialty wedge set with none of those features and heavy steel shafts. 

 

It's like ?!

 

Ping probably does it the best where they can continue the iron set into a U, S, L wedges that perform similarly and won't have giant distance gaps. 

 

I've owned a few G series irons, and the things I hated most about them was the offset, huge sole and high bounce. It's what made me look to the HMP. I've generally always gamed 120 gram shafts and D3/D4 swingweight 

[el_caporal]

26 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

You just need to develop a repeatable less than full motion swing. Then take that swing with your 48 and then a 54 and 58/60 and you will be able to consistently “have a swing” for basically everything 60 yards or more. 

Just started reading Pelz’s “Short Game Bible.” Greatly detailed book but simple/ clear, seems timeless. The “3x4 System”… 

 

 

Short game is my 2023 focus… want to believe as as a 15, deliberate practice of his 3 “times” will largely eliminate the related blowups… and increase my scoring + save conversions. There’s little left my tee or iron game can do to get me to goal of <=10… and wedge efficiency, probably easier to find than a 25% improvement in my putting. 

 

Ties back to average players using “pro” wedges, too. I should use wedges that make me familiar w/ product of consistent crisp contact. No “when I get it right… feels amazing!” And only, “I mostly catch it pretty solid.” I have juiced so many “pro” wedges over a green/ target, by surprise… and it’s demoralizing. Great contact = sh*t result. Then I yip that chip b/c same 56* just “got” me, lol. 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

I don't have a problem with low CG loft jacked irons

 

If only they actually existed.

 

We're *told* they exist, but in reality, not so much.

 

[Sparty4202]

10 hours ago, el_caporal said:

Just started reading Pelz’s “Short Game Bible.” Greatly detailed book but simple/ clear, seems timeless. The “3x4 System”… 

 

 

Short game is my 2023 focus… want to believe as as a 15, deliberate practice of his 3 “times” will largely eliminate the related blowups… and increase my scoring + save conversions. There’s little left my tee or iron game can do to get me to goal of <=10… and wedge efficiency, probably easier to find than a 25% improvement in my putting. 

 

Ties back to average players using “pro” wedges, too. I should use wedges that make me familiar w/ product of consistent crisp contact. No “when I get it right… feels amazing!” And only, “I mostly catch it pretty solid.” I have juiced so many “pro” wedges over a green/ target, by surprise… and it’s demoralizing. Great contact = sh*t result. Then I yip that chip b/c same 56* just “got” me, lol. 

A lot of the older guys on WRX will get this, it’s how we learned the game (pre 60* wedges). I only carry 2 wedges…a Gap wedge and a 56* wedge. From 120 in I will manufacture the shot I need. 

[Drivingrangehero]

I would hit your clubs to figure out the gaps and then bend accordingly. 
 

I bent my 6 iron 1-1/2* weak in my set of HMB’s because I had a 19y gap between my 6 and 7i and a 8y gap from my 6 iron to 5 iron. It gave me a gap of 14 yards in between my 6 and 7 iron and a gap of 12y between my 6 iron and 5 iron. The rest of the gaps bounce anywhere from 11y to 14y. 
 

That was going off a GC Quad in a good ball striking session, so it gave me piece of mind more than anything. I was just noticing that my 7i was much shorter than the 6i during play, I’m sure averages may work those numbers closer over time with Arccos had I done nothing, but sometimes a little piece of mind is just what’s needed. 

[JermWRX]

44 minutes ago, Drivingrangehero said:

I would hit your clubs to figure out the gaps and then bend accordingly. 
 

I bent my 6 iron 1-1/2* weak in my set of HMB’s because I had a 19y gap between my 6 and 7i and a 8y gap from my 6 iron to 5 iron. It gave me a gap of 14 yards in between my 6 and 7 iron and a gap of 12y between my 6 iron and 5 iron. The rest of the gaps bounce anywhere from 11y to 14y. 
 

That was going off a GC Quad in a good ball striking session, so it gave me piece of mind more than anything. I was just noticing that my 7i was much shorter than the 6i during play, I’m sure averages may work those numbers closer over time with Arccos had I done nothing, but sometimes a little piece of mind is just what’s needed. 

I've hit them indoors on a simulator quite a few times. My gaps are:

GW-PW  19yds

PW-9   14yds

9-8   9yds

8-7  16yds

7-6  14yds

 

I was really hoping for 10-12 yard gaps with these irons, but I don't think that's going to happen. They might end up for sale on here soon. Lol

[Drivingrangehero]

11 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

I've hit them indoors on a simulator quite a few times. My gaps are:

GW-PW  19yds

PW-9   14yds

9-8   9yds

8-7  16yds

7-6  14yds

 

I was really hoping for 10-12 yard gaps with these irons, but I don't think that's going to happen. They might end up for sale on here soon. Lol

I think that you are not going to find a set of clubs that are going to give you 10 yards gaps without them being bunched closer together in loft than 4*.
 

Judging by the gaps in yardage, you probably have plenty of speed. I think that 13y is more realistic honestly. 

[NRJyzr]

39 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

I've hit them indoors on a simulator quite a few times. My gaps are:

GW-PW  19yds

PW-9   14yds

9-8   9yds

8-7  16yds

7-6  14yds

 

I was really hoping for 10-12 yard gaps with these irons, but I don't think that's going to happen. They might end up for sale on here soon. Lol

 

I apologize if I'm asking a question that's already addressed in the thread....

 

Have you had your irons checked for their actual lofts?  Based on the numbers, my first assumption is the 8i is weaker than spec.

 

Obviously, if you've already done that, nevermind.  🙂

 

[Cactus Jack]

11 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I've hit them indoors on a simulator quite a few times. My gaps are:

GW-PW  19yds

PW-9   14yds

9-8   9yds

8-7  16yds

7-6  14yds

 

I was really hoping for 10-12 yard gaps with these irons, but I don't think that's going to happen. They might end up for sale on here soon. Lol

 1* of loft = 3-4 yards of carry. As such, I’d bend your 8 iron 1* degree strong and retest. Also, in general you can divide your 7 iron ball speed by 10 as a gut check for target yardage gaps. For example, if you have 130mph ball speed playable distance gaps would be 13 yards vs 10-12 that are often quoted. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Cactus Jack

[JermWRX]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I apologize if I'm asking a question that's already addressed in the thread....

 

Have you had your irons checked for their actual lofts?  Based on the numbers, my first assumption is the 8i is weaker than spec.

 

Obviously, if you've already done that, nevermind.  🙂

 

I have not. I probably should. I kinda feel like I'm being a pain in the a** by bringing them back to the pro shop I bought them from, just to check lofts. But I probably should do that anyway.

[JermWRX]

1 hour ago, Cactus Jack said:

 1* of loft = 3-4 yards of carry. As such, I’d bend your 8* 1 degree strong and retest. Also, in general you can divide your 7 iron ball speed by 100 as a gut check for target yardage gaps. For example, if you have 130mph ball speed usable gaps would be ~13 yards vs 10-12 that are often quoted. 

Wow. I've never heard of that method before. Thanks!!

[eric61]

One of my favorite Mizuno sets in recent memory was the JPX 921 SEL — the lefty-only blend of a 921 Forged 4/5 iron and 921 Tour 6-GW. The lofts were perfect:

 

4 — 22*
5 — 26*
6 — 30*
7 — 34*
8 — 38*
9 — 42*
PW — 46*
GW — 51*
 

Throw in a 56 and 60 and you were set. 
 

Unless you have a ton of speed, those super-small gaps on the long end of the 923 Hot Metal Pros don’t really make much sense to me. 
 

Lately I’ve become a proponent of blended sets that work in not just two but three models, to maintain launch and reasonable gapping on the long end. Here’s a possible set-up along these lines with the Srixon ZX Mk II lofts:

 

ZX4 5 iron — 23*
ZX5 6 iron — 27*
ZX5 7 iron — 31*
ZX7 8 iron — 36*
ZX7 9 iron — 41*
ZX7 PW — 46*
… then a 52/58 or 50/55/60 or whatever you prefer.

 

I like the idea of maintaining 4-5 degree gaps throughout, but once you get past 5 degrees, as Mizuno does with the 923 HMPs on the short end, you’re definitely raising the potential for introducing problems.

 

For your set specifically, it looks like you need to bend that 8 iron a degree stronger. I’d also consider ditching the GW for a 46*, then bending your 52* a degree strong to 51*. On paper that’s what makes the most sense to me without selling your wedge set and starting over, but obviously you’d have to test it.

[JermWRX]

3 minutes ago, eric61 said:

One of my favorite Mizuno sets in recent memory was the JPX 921 SEL — the lefty-only blend of a 921 Forged 4/5 iron and 921 Tour 6-GW. The lofts were perfect:

 

4 — 22*
5 — 26*
6 — 30*
7 — 34*
8 — 38*
9 — 42*
PW — 46*
GW — 51*
 

Throw in a 56 and 60 and you were set. 
 

Unless you have a ton of speed, those super-small gaps on the long end of the 923 Hot Metal Pros don’t really make much sense to me. 
 

Lately I’ve become a proponent of blended sets that work in not just two but three models, to maintain launch and reasonable gapping on the long end. Here’s a possible set-up along these lines with the Srixon ZX Mk II lofts:

 

ZX4 5 iron — 23*
ZX5 6 iron — 27*
ZX5 7 iron — 31*
ZX7 8 iron — 36*
ZX7 9 iron — 41*
ZX7 PW — 46*
… then a 52/58 or 50/55/60 or whatever you prefer.

 

I like the idea of maintaining 4-5 degree gaps throughout, but once you get past 5 degrees, as Mizuno does with the 923 HMPs on the short end, you’re definitely raising the potential for introducing problems.

 

For your set specifically, it looks like you need to bend that 8 iron a degree stronger. I’d also consider ditching the GW for a 46*, then bending your 52* a degree strong to 51*. On paper that’s what makes the most sense to me without selling your wedge set and starting over, but obviously you’d have to test it.

Awesome info. Thank you! As a matter of fact, I was just looking for 46 degree options online. Standard options like CBX and such. Then I saw the 921 Forged PW is 45 degrees. I thought maybe if I weakened it to 46 it might fix the issue, while maintaining the head shape, and turf interaction of the HMP that I like. 

[Cwebb]

46 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

I have not. I probably should. I kinda feel like I'm being a pain in the a** by bringing them back to the pro shop I bought them from, just to check lofts. But I probably should do that anyway.

Always have them checked even when brand new and untouched from the factory, because of manufacturing tolerance, which is + or - 1* for both loft and lie.   This means one brand new 8 iron could possibly have a 2* loft difference than another, which is generally half a club of distance.

[JermWRX]

Just now, Cwebb said:

Always have them checked even when brand new and untouched from the factory, because of manufacturing tolerance, which is + or - 1* for both loft and lie.   This means one brand new 8 iron could possibly have a 2* loft difference than another, which is generally half a club of distance.

I didn't realize that. I figured they were measured when they were built. Thank you!