The Links Lounge (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION/LIV ***)

[mshills]

1 hour ago, Petethreeput said:

And the poor guy thinks he looks like Ernie Els.

🤣🤣🤣, yes, 100%. What is it about this game that makes some players think that some weird, manufactured, contrived, crazy move is what he should be doing?
 

“Yeah, it works for me though. I just can’t hit the ball at all the ‘regular’ way.”

 

”Ah, I see that. What did you shoot today?”

 

”98!”

 

🙄 Working real well, huh?

[NJBigFish22]

2 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

It occurred to me that not everyone watches the news.  It was the final show in Beyonce's Cowboy Carter tour and she had Destiny's Child come out (everyone was giddy), Shaboozy (I think that's his name came out and did the duet), and for a costume change JayZ came out and did some song.  But we do not like JayZ, none of us.  While the fans were going wild, apparently my wife just stood there arms folded... no smile.

Probably could have used Jay Z’s set to get another drink or go to bathroom!

[chisag]

13 minutes ago, mshills said:

🤣🤣🤣, yes, 100%. What is it about this game that makes some players think that some weird, manufactured, contrived, crazy move is what he should be doing?
 

“Yeah, it works for me though. I just can’t hit the ball at all the ‘regular’ way.”

 

”Ah, I see that. What did you shoot today?”

 

”98!”

 

🙄 Working real well, huh?

 

 

... That's the crazy thing about this game ain't it? A proper sequence is much simpler and easier than we make it out to be and we all fall victim to some degree. Usually because we are trying to hit to farther or guide a shot or just think we can improve our swing with a new tweak. There are reasons we enter a rabbit hole either on purpose or accidentally, especially when over coming physical limitations. For instance my torn meniscus left my trail knee unstable making it both difficult to load that knee or push off with my trail foot effectively. And this is the killer, making one compensation usually starts a chain reaction affecting other parts of the swing. Then you don't have one issue to address, you have multiple issues and trying to fix the wrong one can cause even more disastrous effects. You'd think as an instructor that can recognize it in others, I would be able to fix it myself but that isn't always the case and exactly why the best players on the planet have coaches. 

... But it is part of the allure of the game and why one round you seem to be playing effortlessly with everything in sync and the very next round is a struggle for all 18 holes. It only takes a very small sequence error to have you wondering why you are so close but seemingly so far away at the same time. But I also think this is hy it is such a great game and a challenge every single round. If it were too easy most of us would have gotten bored and quit. 

... But concerning this topic, it is amazing how some have never felt a proper sequence and make the swing much more difficult than it needs to be basically piling one compensation on another til they look like the proverbial Octopus In A Phone Booth (ignoring the fact that the younger generation has no ida what a phone booth is)  🤪 And that applies to something as simple as the putting stroke that so many butcher right from address.  I have always felt Occams Razor was perfect for golf: 



Occam’s razor, principle stated by the Scholastic philosopher William of Ockham(1285–1347/49)  The principle gives precedence to simplicity: of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred. The principle is also expressed as “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.”

[Double Mocha Man]

19 minutes ago, chisag said:

If it were too easy most of us would have gotten bored and quit. 

 

After winning $25 million on one of the tours...

[chisag]

7 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

After winning $25 million on one of the tours...

 

 

... Ironically I was just reading an expense report for an average pro ranked around 50th that made 5 million last year. 

1.6 million in fed/state taxes
4.5k caddie
400k Coach/Trainer/Physio
125k hotel, travel, food

... 2.4 after expenses and taxes. Not $5,000,000 but I think most of us could live relatively comfortably on $2,400,000 a year. 🤑

[chisag]

... Speaking of putting, you guys know I have a pendulum stroke letting the weight of the putter head swing the club. I grip the club very lightly with just enough pressure to maintain control and my guess is around a 4 but could be as high as a 5. It is of course a feel putting stroke and those with a mechanical stroke that want to just rock their shoulders may grip tighter. This is an excellent video on putting grip pressure:


 

 

[mshills]

32 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... That's the crazy thing about this game ain't it? A proper sequence is much simpler and easier than we make it out to be and we all fall victim to some degree. Usually because we are trying to hit to farther or guide a shot or just think we can improve our swing with a new tweak. There are reasons we enter a rabbit hole either on purpose or accidentally, especially when over coming physical limitations. For instance my torn meniscus left my trail knee unstable making it both difficult to load that knee or push off with my trail foot effectively. And this is the killer, making one compensation usually starts a chain reaction affecting other parts of the swing. Then you don't have one issue to address, you have multiple issues and trying to fix the wrong one can cause even more disastrous effects. You'd think as an instructor that can recognize it in others, I would be able to fix it myself but that isn't always the case and exactly why the best players on the planet have coaches. 

... But it is part of the allure of the game and why one round you seem to be playing effortlessly with everything in sync and the very next round is a struggle for all 18 holes. It only takes a very small sequence error to have you wondering why you are so close but seemingly so far away at the same time. But I also think this is hy it is such a great game and a challenge every single round. If it were too easy most of us would have gotten bored and quit. 

... But concerning this topic, it is amazing how some have never felt a proper sequence and make the swing much more difficult than it needs to be basically piling one compensation on another til they look like the proverbial Octopus In A Phone Booth (ignoring the fact that the younger generation has no ida what a phone booth is)  🤪 And that applies to something as simple as the putting stroke that so many butcher right from address.  I have always felt Occams Razor was perfect for golf: 



Occam’s razor, principle stated by the Scholastic philosopher William of Ockham(1285–1347/49)  The principle gives precedence to simplicity: of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred. The principle is also expressed as “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.”

For sure. Your lenses are of quite an accomplished player over a significant time and as an instructor. My lens is as someone who used to be able to play a little bit, and spent just as much time on a bag as I did playing. 
 

What we see as players are other fairly serious players getting a little out of sorts, trying to self diagnose, and coming off the rails. 
 

What I mean are some of the delusions I saw as a caddie. Some are hard to believe. 
 

Player I looped for all the time, about a 15 index. Could not have a stronger grip. It was so strong, forget seeing four knuckles on the L hand, I bet he could see the heel of his L hand at address, and his R hand was so far under the club I bet he could almost see the knuckles on his right hand! His hands were easily 24” in front of the ball at address. Also had really strong leg drive (wonder why?) and for the entire time I caddied for him he never carried a driver, because he couldn’t elevate anything beyond 3w. Think the grip might have something to do with this? “Oh no, no way, I can’t change my grip, I’ll slice it if I do that.” Arighty then, carry on!

 

Or the guy I got paired with once. Never seen anything like it, and I play with one arm! He had a cross handed FULL SWING and honest truth, I’d be shocked if he broke 100 on the front nine. I gently asks him at the turn about the cross handed swing and he says “yeah, I came up with this about 2 or 3 years ago….I just can’t hit the ball at all unless I grip it this way.” Ummm….reckon golf just might not be your game, but I didn’t say so and sort of awkwardly changed the subject. 
 

I guess fooling yourself is a mighty strong instinct, but I’ve just never seen such nonsense in other sports I played. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, mshills said:

Player I looped for all the time, about a 15 index. Could not have a stronger grip. It was so strong, forget seeing four knuckles on the L hand, I bet he could see the heel of his L hand at address, and his R hand was so far under the club I bet he could almost see the knuckles on his right hand! His hands were easily 24” in front of the ball at address. Also had really strong leg drive (wonder why?) and for the entire time I caddied for him he never carried a driver, because he couldn’t elevate anything beyond 3w. Think the grip might have something to do with this? “Oh no, no way, I can’t change my grip, I’ll slice it if I do that.” Arighty then, carry on!

 

 

 

... Hahaha too funny as I had a student that owned 5 car dealerships in Chicago and he heard of me through word of mouth from someone he played with. So he drove out to Bolingbrook to take a lesson and his grip was pretty much the same as you described. I have never seen a stronger grip. He wanted me to fix his duck hooks and after a few swings I said the first thing we need to do is start weakening his grip a little at a time because adjusting it to a neutral position would be too drastic a change. Same response "He!! no, I have had several instructors try that and it completely ruined my swing" So we worked on a few compensations and at the end of the lesson I told him being completely honest I wasn't sure I could help him without changing his grip. But he said he really liked me and I was much more personable than his other instructors and peeled off $500 and said "Let me know when this runs out" He stayed with me for 2 years and while I was able to improve other parts of his game and break 100 for the most time but I was never able to fix his swing with that insane grip he refused to change. 

[mshills]

39 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

 

... Hahaha too funny as I had a student that owned 5 car dealerships in Chicago and he heard of me through word of mouth from someone he played with. So he drove out to Bolingbrook to take a lesson and his grip was pretty much the same as you described. I have never seen a stronger grip. He wanted me to fix his duck hooks and after a few swings I said the first thing we need to do is start weakening his grip a little at a time because adjusting it to a neutral position would be too drastic a change. Same response "He!! no, I have had several instructors try that and it completely ruined my swing" So we worked on a few compensations and at the end of the lesson I told him being completely honest I wasn't sure I could help him without changing his grip. But he said he really liked me and I was much more personable than his other instructors and peeled off $500 and said "Let me know when this runs out" He stayed with me for 2 years and while I was able to improve other parts of his game and break 100 for the most time but I was never able to fix his swing with that insane grip he refused to change. 

Lol I am not just a great instructor in much of anything, and I’d be too much of a wise guy in golf  
 

Let’s consider this. 
Ok. 
Have you ever seen a good player stand / hold / swing that way?

No.

 

🤔

Think there might be something to that?

 

My primary problem would be lack of repeat clients. 

[chisag]

19 minutes ago, mshills said:

My primary problem would be lack of repeat clients. 

 

 

... That was an eye opener for me. Instructor for the vast majority is a business and I had to learn there were students that weren't going to listen and weren't gonna improve much, if at all. I had to just help the best I could and take the money they wanted to give me. At that time in my acting career I needed the extra income. Otoh it did make helping those willing to listen and improve much more rewarding. 

... I also think teaching is an art form as far as personalities are concerned. Much like playing QB and understanding which lineman needed a kick in the butt, constant encouragement or left alone most of the time, I think I had a good foundation and I found teaching to be the same. Find out what kind of instruction made them the most comfortable because some loved trash talk, some loved encouragement and a few introverts liked to just be given the facts with as little interaction as possible. Some loved watching me hit some shots demonstrating a proper swing and others didn't want me swinging and embarrassing them. Teaching was always a learning experience. 

[touch]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

... Speaking of putting, you guys know I have a pendulum stroke letting the weight of the putter head swing the club. I grip the club very lightly with just enough pressure to maintain control and my guess is around a 4 but could be as high as a 5. It is of course a feel putting stroke and those with a mechanical stroke that want to just rock their shoulders may grip tighter. This is an excellent video on putting grip pressure:


 

 

 

Quit it right now Sam. You have exceeded the daily allowed number of Tiger instructional videos in the Lounge. That number is 1 . 😄

 

I'm like you in that I use a slim putter grip and hold it with light pressure predominantly in my fingers. It is what works best for me. A medium sized Super Stroke putter grip or similar sized grips takes away too much feel IMO. 

 

 

[chisag]

7 minutes ago, touch said:

 

I'm like you in that I use a slim putter grip and hold it with light pressure predominantly in my fingers. It is what works best for me. A medium sized Super Stroke putter grip or similar sized grips takes away too much feel IMO. 

 

 

... Great stuff LP!  I am always shocked at how many hold their putter in the palms because as you said, the most feel is in the fingertips. I think too many miss some putts and think they need to take feel completely out of their stroke ala Bryson. Of course Bryson has an amazing amount of talent and is very technical but misses big putts all the time. I like to say I can putt with most any putter but those large grips are very difficult for me to use, especially on longer lag putts that are all about feel. 

[touch]

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

 especially on longer lag putts that are all about feel. 

 

 

So agree ! 

[NJBigFish22]

12 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Great stuff LP!  I am always shocked at how many hold their putter in the palms because as you said, the most feel is in the fingertips. I think too many miss some putts and think they need to take feel completely out of their stroke ala Bryson. Of course Bryson has an amazing amount of talent and is very technical but misses big putts all the time. I like to say I can putt with most any putter but those large grips are very difficult for me to use, especially on longer lag putts that are all about feel. 

It’s funny, I used to have an extremely light grip on my putter and part of that was using oversized grip, thin grips I would choke the heck out of the club.  Now since my amputation I am gripping the club harder than I used to.  I feel it’s due to not being rock solid in my set up cause of the prosthesis, so I’m gripping tighter for balance.

[mshills]

11 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Great stuff LP!  I am always shocked at how many hold their putter in the palms because as you said, the most feel is in the fingertips. I think too many miss some putts and think they need to take feel completely out of their stroke ala Bryson. Of course Bryson has an amazing amount of talent and is very technical but misses big putts all the time. I like to say I can putt with most any putter but those large grips are very difficult for me to use, especially on longer lag putts that are all about feel. 

The polymer those grips use also deadens things. I hate that. A putter that “feels soft” has somehow been interpreted as “better” and that simply does not work for me. 
 

I like rubber grips, as firm as possible. Rock hard even better. I’ll take tacky or rough, either one, since I’m not a big practicer tearing my hands up is not really a concern. 
 

My long putter is a Bobby Grace F22 — the gold standard for side saddle putting. I like it, and I’d love it if I could make two changes:

 

No insert. Bobby would throw up all over this since his insert material is pretty cool and unique, but I’d select a flat metal surface every day. 

 

Rubber grips instead of polymer. This can be done by hacking it like Langer does. I wish someone other than Winn was making split grips for long putters, since I just don’t like the Winn feel at all. 

[touch]

18 minutes ago, mshills said:

The polymer those grips use also deadens things. I hate that. A putter that “feels soft” has somehow been interpreted as “better” and that simply does not work for me. 
 

I like rubber grips, as firm as possible. Rock hard even better. I’ll take tacky or rough, either one, since I’m not a big practicer tearing my hands up is not really a concern. 
 

My long putter is a Bobby Grace F22 — the gold standard for side saddle putting. I like it, and I’d love it if I could make two changes:

 

No insert. Bobby would throw up all over this since his insert material is pretty cool and unique, but I’d select a flat metal surface every day. 

 

Rubber grips instead of polymer. This can be done by hacking it like Langer does. I wish someone other than Winn was making split grips for long putters, since I just don’t like the Winn feel at all. 

 

 

I agree MS about the polymer grips, they do deaden the feeling of the putt. Good call. 

 

For me it's rubber and it's hard, but it has to be super tacky. My grip of choice for a good many years has been the Iomic 65. It is hard and with a light soap and water bath each week it will stay tacky for a couple of seasons.

 

 

 

 

And another thing...... I have to use a putter grip that tapers from the top to the bottom. The grips that feature the exact same width, size, circumference from top to bottom are not my cup of tea. 

 

 

[chisag]

... Hard to tell from a selfie but the only things touching my putter grip is my finger and thumb tips and the pads of my hands. My palm is nowhere near the grip with either hand. I honestly don't understand why more don't use this grip as it produces maximum feel. I got 3 out of 4 in my regular group to adopt this grip and their putting improved tremendously. The 4th can be kinda yippy and has a much more mechanical stroke and grips his putter tightly. One of the other things I firmly believe produces a neutral stroke is having each hand mirror the other. Obviously a claw or some other manufactured grip can't achieve this but any remotely normal grip should have opposing hands in the same orientation and it prevents one from being more dominant than the other. 

[Double Mocha Man]

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Hard to tell from a selfie but the only things touching my putter grip is my finger and thumb tips and the pads of my hands. My palm is nowhere near the grip with either hand. I honestly don't understand why more don't use this grip as it produces maximum feel. I got 3 out of 4 in my regular group to adopt this grip and their putting improved tremendously. The 4th can be kinda yippy and has a much more mechanical stroke and grips his putter tightly. One of the other things I firmly believe produces a neutral stroke is having each hand mirror the other. Obviously a claw or some other manufactured grip can't achieve this but any remotely normal grip should have opposing hands in the same orientation and it prevents one from being more dominant than the other. 

 

Why don't we see the fourth finger on your right hand? Where is that puppy?

[chisag]

1 minute ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Why don't we see the fourth finger on your right hand? Where is that puppy?

 

 

... Haha it is down the shaft with the fingertip touching the underneath part of the shaft. 

[touch]

Heck yeah. Hey fellow NFL fans our wait is over !  

 

Thursday, July 31, 2025

MATCHUP		TIME	TV	tickets	Location / Weather	ODDS BY
Los Angeles	@  Detroit	8:00 PM	NBC Peacock	Tickets as low as $79	Tom Benson Hall of Fame Stadium, Canton, OH	Line: DET -1 O/U: 32.5

[touch]

A little something to get you excited for the upcoming new NFL season. 

 

 

 

 

Some trickery from the 2009 HOF game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

26 minutes ago, touch said:

Heck yeah. Hey fellow NFL fans our wait is over !  

 

Thursday, July 31, 2025

MATCHUP		TIME	TV	tickets	Location / Weather	ODDS BY
Los Angeles	@  Detroit	8:00 PM	NBC Peacock	Tickets as low as $79	Tom Benson Hall of Fame Stadium, Canton, OH	Line: DET -1 O/U: 32.5

 

Seahawk's first pre-season game isn't until August 7th.  They're going against their old coach... Pete Carroll.  A buck says you won't see Stafford or Goff in the Ram/Lions game.

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Seahawk's first pre-season game isn't until August 7th.  They're going against their old coach... Pete Carroll.  A buck says you won't see Stafford or Goff in the Ram/Lions game.

 

 

... I think we will see Goff as they have a new OC and need game reps but I'm with you and doubt we will see Stafford. 

[touch]

6 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Seahawk's first pre-season game isn't until August 7th.  They're going against their old coach... Pete Carroll.  A buck says you won't see Stafford or Goff in the Ram/Lions game.

 

Which is fine with me. Regardless of starters being in the game or not I still want to see some plays run. I'm ready for some NFL action baby! 

 

 

 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I think we will see Goff as they have a new OC and need game reps but I'm with you and doubt we will see Stafford. 

 

Maybe we'll see them both for the opening series 'cause it's in the TV contract???

[chisag]

... Information none of you need or want. 112* today so yea, I'm going commando for my Sprouts grocery run. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, touch said:

Which is fine with me. Regardless of starters being in the game or not I still want to see some plays run. I'm ready for some NFL action baby! 

 

 

... Oh yea! If anyone watches Hard Knocks (which is maybe the best edited show on TV) it's always interesting to see the 3rd and 4th string players giving it everything they have hoping to make the 53 man roster or the practice squad. Some of them will never see an NFL regular season game so the are huge for them and their parents/friends watching. 

[touch]

31 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Information none of you need or want. 112* today so yea, I'm going commando for my Sprouts grocery run. 

 

Do be careful that your sprout isn't subject to any electrical charge riding down the road because you went no drawers. Maybe wear rubber soles shoes as a safety precaution. 

Edited July 29 by touch

[mshills]

4 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Information none of you need or want. 112* today so yea, I'm going commando for my Sprouts grocery run. 

[touch]

7 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Maybe we'll see them both for the opening series 'cause it's in the TV contract???

 

Possibly that. I like your thinking.