USGA Changes Qualifying Rules - Is the USGA Drunk?

[Creedo77]

The USGA has made some terrible decisions recently. They must be bored in the office 

[dmecca2]

I feel like the USGA is staring me straight in the face, extending out their hand, and raising their middle finger.

[dmecca2]

For starters, they're relying on a broken WAGR system. Michael Brown, a renown player in the philly area, is around 50 years old. In the last 2-3 years, i may be wrong as i dont know the past, the first player ever to win and hold the PA amateur, Delaware amateur, and the NJ amateur AT THE SAME TIME. This is incredible. YET, his best WAGR ranking is 439. Currently Ranked 1429 despite having 3 wins in his "counting" events. If a guy like this, who plays golf almost every day, cant maintain a top 600 WAGR. How am I or any other Mid AM supposed to compete.

[dmecca2]

16 hours ago, smashdn said:

You forgot while expanding the number of players exempt from local qualifying.  Top 600 in WAGR don't need to local qualify.

 

There are more ways to be exempted deeper into the process but if you are not exempt you would need to get through two levels of 18 hole qualifying split between two sites as opposed to 36 at one site.

 

The good news is if you weren't good enough to be exempt and don't make it out of that first 18 hole qualifying you don't have to worry about the second day (or hotel rooms, practice rounds, etc.) and you can get yourself back to work sooner.

Michael Brown, a renown player in the philly area, is around 50 years old. In the last 2-3 years he is the first player ever to win and hold the PA amateur, Delaware amateur, and the NJ amateur AT THE SAME TIME. This is incredible, YET, his best WAGR ranking is 439 and he is currently Ranked 1429 despite having 3 wins in his "counting" events. This ranking system just isnt ready to give out top 600 exemptions.

[bladehunter]

10 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Actually…it would be interesting if they kicked the college players out.  After all they already have their own NCAA championship.  

 

Have the college kids invaded the state amateur championships?  The last time I knew who the champion of my state was he was a guy in real estate I used to play with sometimes.  It was a while ago but there were probably college kids even then who could have taken him.

Depends.  They alwasy play in it.  Some years yes one wins. Some years no. .   But you can bet they will enter the county or city level events and destroy a field.  My county am is 3 days.  And it averages around -8 as a winner for 3 days .  Last year a guy I know who is in his 30s won. But most years it’s a battle between at least 2 D1 players and a mid am who’s a former D1 player.  

[bladehunter]

21 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

For starters, they're relying on a broken WAGR system. Michael Brown, a renown player in the philly area, is around 50 years old. In the last 2-3 years, i may be wrong as i dont know the past, the first player ever to win and hold the PA amateur, Delaware amateur, and the NJ amateur AT THE SAME TIME. This is incredible. YET, his best WAGR ranking is 439. Currently Ranked 1429 despite having 3 wins in his "counting" events. If a guy like this, who plays golf almost every day, cant maintain a top 600 WAGR. How am I or any other Mid AM supposed to compete.

Bro.  Midams are screwed in general until they’re seniors.  Just how it is. We work the most , play the least and have the least events to play in.  Recipe for disadvantage 

[wantacigar]

Rolling back the ball makes no sense.  We have all seen how "shorter" courses tamed the bombers with design, penalizing errant shots, etc..   Stop cutting down trees and clearing heavy brush areas.  It's soooo ridiculous.  It's not the ball, it's the athlete who has honed their body and figured out the physics of the swing.  Majority of the Tour Pro's on tour don't exceed 300 yard drives already.  The old adage applies to even the tour pros "Drive for show, Putt for $Dough$".  We've all seen the "bombers" struggle with short game and putting.  So stop designing or expanding courses to accommodate the "bombers" and start designing/redesigning so their RISK-REWARD is high.  The penalty for missing that higher risk shot for the length advantage will be severe enough to make them think twice  before taking the high risk shot.  

Problem solved.

[smashdn]

11 hours ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

A bunch of children?  Usually its the one whose claiming to be an adult while putting others down who is the most immature one in the conversation.  

 

Is the amateur champ going to be a guy taking a couple of days off to play in a tournament?  Maybe, maybe not.  There have been some guys with legit day jobs who have made deep runs at the US Am.  It's not unheard of.  But the whole point of the US Open and US Am was that it was open to anyone so long as you met the handicap requirement.  That was always the stated intent and there is no compelling reason to change the format.  None.

 

As for the whole distance thing, there isn't an issue.  It's a perception.  And that's about it.  The USGA has an unhealthy obsession with that they call "protecting par".  It's counter productive.  They keep stretching courses and the only thing it favors is the small percentage of the games longest hitters.  Look at Bryson at Winged Foot.  Oddly the lowest total in relation to par of recent US Opens I can remember is the shortest course they played, Merion.  The fact of the matter is the scoring average hasn't changed much in spite of the USGA, and nothing in any of their championship events suggests that distance is an issue in terms of overall score. 

 

The only thing the USGA deserves is a healthy bowl of shut the hell up and a swift kick in the a** for screwing up stuff that wasn't broken until they attempted to fix it.  

 

From purely an identifying the most deserving or worthy golfer, what has the format change done?

 

It looked like it allowed more WAGR places automatically in to a certain stage of the process.  Then if you didn't shake out of the initial 18 hole qualifying you were done and didn't play the second round.  So instead of getting 36 at one location and getting cut, you may only get 18 and get cut.  If you advance then you have to worry with the next site regional qualifying that is an 18 hole round.

 

Regarding what was bolded, the qualification format change doesn't appear to change that aspect of it.

[Bad9]

16 minutes ago, wantacigar said:

...it's the athlete who has honed their body and figured out the physics of the swing...

 

This almost never gets mentioned by the proponents of roll backs/freezes and to me is the biggest factor in the last 20yrs. Most equipment specs have been frozen since about 2003.

[smashdn]

37 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

Michael Brown, a renown player in the philly area, is around 50 years old. In the last 2-3 years he is the first player ever to win and hold the PA amateur, Delaware amateur, and the NJ amateur AT THE SAME TIME. This is incredible, YET, his best WAGR ranking is 439 and he is currently Ranked 1429 despite having 3 wins in his "counting" events. This ranking system just isnt ready to give out top 600 exemptions.

 

Thank you for the well researched and well thought out reply. 

 

Do those state am wins not get him entry into the stages?  I thought state am wins got you into the US Am.  I could be wrong.

 

I read a few articles while compiling the post.  Several of them mentioned that it is largely impossible to be a competitive "working amateur" as they put it.  That doesn't appear to be an issue with the USGA so much as who you are competing against that are also considered ams. It also sort of explains why the guy isn't ranked any higher than he is, he isn't playing as many events as say what a college golfer would.  I was surprised though that the tournament he most recently won netted him only a few more points than a professional tournament (state association level) where he finished farther down the leaderboard.  The "power" rankings of the events that he one were significantly lower.

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

This almost never gets mentioned by the proponents of roll backs/freezes and to me is the biggest factor in the last 20yrs. Most equipment specs have been frozen since about 2003.

 

Freezing the equipment spec is not the same thing as a freeze in equipment performance.

[golfortennis]

Anyone have any idea why this got moved to the golf balls section?  General golf talk seemed the appropriate place.  This is about more than just the ball.

[golfortennis]

35 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bro.  Midams are screwed in general until they’re seniors.  Just how it is. We work the most , play the least and have the least events to play in.  Recipe for disadvantage 

 

Oh, c'mon, it's not like you have to play against reinstated professionals as well.. oh wait.  Wrong thread.

 

 

[golfortennis]

11 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Actually…it would be interesting if they kicked the college players out.  After all they already have their own NCAA championship.  

 

Have the college kids invaded the state amateur championships?  The last time I knew who the champion of my state was he was a guy in real estate I used to play with sometimes.  It was a while ago but there were probably college kids even then who could have taken him.

 

Supposedly that was why they started the mid-am, but like the publinks getting overrun by country club kids saying they play out of some resort, the mid-am(started so that guys who weren't pros in training had something to shoot for) has now become the reinstatement invitational.  

 

I would say if it's a reduction in numbers they are after lower the handicap limit, but dropping it a point in the late 90s for the US Open led to more entries, so, who knows what would happen here.

[wantacigar]

7 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

Anyone have any idea why this got moved to the golf balls section?  General golf talk seemed the appropriate place.  This is about more than just the ball.

Agreed but the foundation or start of the discussion that evolved into all rule changes of the USGA was the golf ball rollback

[dmecca2]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

Thank you for the well researched and well thought out reply. 

 

Do those state am wins not get him entry into the stages?  I thought state am wins got you into the US Am.  I could be wrong.

 

I read a few articles while compiling the post.  Several of them mentioned that it is largely impossible to be a competitive "working amateur" as they put it.  That doesn't appear to be an issue with the USGA so much as who you are competing against that are also considered ams. It also sort of explains why the guy isn't ranked any higher than he is, he isn't playing as many events as say what a college golfer would.  I was surprised though that the tournament he most recently won netted him only a few more points than a professional tournament (state association level) where he finished farther down the leaderboard.  The "power" rankings of the events that he one were significantly lower.

Well, I assume he would have to win this year's events to be exempt into next year. But, this guy is a "working" amateur, but his job allows him to play golf as often as he wants. YET, he still cant play in events weighted high enough to affect his WAGR. His most recent win, the Philly Am, is certainly a higher level event than most college events. Every college level amateur in the philly area is playing in it, or trying to qualify for it. And now that the philly golf association encompasses central PA, Northeast PA, Delaware, and some of NJ, this isn't an event exclusive to the small Philly area.

 

Another issue we have in PA is that the state golf association is not in a great place. They were in the same office as the philadelphia golf association, but are now kicked out due to some pointless drama. From what I understand, they are having difficulty finding sites for qualifiers and even their championships. For example, their "northeast" qualifier for the state amateur, is 2 hours away from the northeast. Add on the $210 cost to play, travel, and hotel for the championship if you make it (pittsburgh is 5 hours away), and this just isnt a feasible event to anyone who pays for their own tournaments. 

[dmecca2]

10 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Oh, c'mon, it's not like you have to play against reinstated professionals as well.. oh wait.  Wrong thread.

 

 

Even though that is a sore subject for many, I don't care about how good the guys are I play against. I just want a chance to compete against them straight up. As it stands, I will not be at a level playing field against these college kids just based off events they can play that I cant. I watch from work as they gain exemptions.

[CardsChamps11]

20 hours ago, dmecca2 said:

Side question: Are the lower WAGR rankings ready for exemptions like this? I'm not sure how these rankings work for people not playing in high level events. For example, I played and finished decently in a WAGR event, but my name isnt listed on the WAGR site for that event, even though there are people listed that finished worse than me.

To be listed on WAGR you need to earn at least 6 points in a single event. Once you do that, it will record all the events you are in after that. If you do not have a 6 point even for 2 years (I think), you are delisted. It's HEAVILY weighted towards college events.

[CLEVELAND59]

21 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

From purely an identifying the most deserving or worthy golfer, what has the format change done?

 

It looked like it allowed more WAGR places automatically in to a certain stage of the process.  Then if you didn't shake out of the initial 18 hole qualifying you were done and didn't play the second round.  So instead of getting 36 at one location and getting cut, you may only get 18 and get cut.  If you advance then you have to worry with the next site regional qualifying that is an 18 hole round.

 

Regarding what was bolded, the qualification format change doesn't appear to change that aspect of it.

You are completely missing just about every point.  Increasing the number of WAGR exemptions reduces the number of available of spots available for players who aren't basically "professional amateurs", that is a basic format change in terms of it being "open" in terms of qualifying.  Yes, there have always been exemptions out there, but this is a radical change in the number of WAGR exemptions that are granted to each stage.  To me this is more about marketing than anything else and ensuring the names they want to get into the event have a significant advantage over the relative unknowns.  If the USGA wants to create and host an event based on the WAGR, then fine, go right ahead.  Create one and promote it and run it.  But don't try to create more attention and marketing to your event at the expense of the very players that you proclaim to represent as equals. 

 

 And the change in the format from 1 36 hole event to 2 18 hole events, as has been pointed out, basically doubles the cost of everything, creating a further economic and/or logistical disadvantage to potential participants.  Many of the "professional amateurs" have deals in place to cover their costs.  Most of the "rest" are paying out of pocket.  The last time I attempted to qualify for the Am, the overall experience cost me around $2000 between entries, travel, hotel, food and practice round, which is steep enough.  Having to do that twice if I were to get through the 1st round and on to the 2nd?  And then having to do it again if I reached the actual tournament?  Forget it. I would be looking at 6 or 7k minimum.  Let's be real. The USGA is quietly telling the no name golfer to take a hike through limited opportunity and simple economics.  

[golfortennis]

9 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

Even though that is a sore subject for many, I don't care about how good the guys are I play against. I just want a chance to compete against them straight up. As it stands, I will not be at a level playing field against these college kids just based off events they can play that I cant. I watch from work as they gain exemptions.

 

It's not a case of "I don't want them to be too good for me to play against."  Why was the mid-am created?  So that guys who had jobs had something to compete in against similar people, and not against college kids who were majoring in golf.

 

Now if a guy is born into a billionaire family and never had to work a day in his life, and could spend all day working on his game, fine.  But nerves come into play in a tournament, and there is no experience an amateur can have that can match standing over a 10 foot putt knowing that this putt could mean the difference between sleeping in a hotel or your car for the next week, which is what most pros will face at one time or another.  If someone chooses that route, great and I support them, but when that doesn't work out, and they can come in and squeeze out the guys these events are meant for, that just sticks in the craw.  

 

People come in with the "play better" answers.... well, the pro should have played better.  

[SheriffBooth]

Merged the two topics on this subject.

 

Also, please don't go into the proposed ball changes here - that has it's own lengthy thread.

Edited March 23, 2023 by SheriffBooth

[smashdn]

19 minutes ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

You are completely missing just about every point.  Increasing the number of WAGR exemptions reduces the number of available of spots available for players who aren't basically "professional amateurs", that is a basic format change in terms of it being "open" in terms of qualifying. 

 

You are right.  I did misunderstand the points you were making.  I understand now from the perspective you presented that it is a significant change for those types of amateurs.

[bladehunter]

43 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Oh, c'mon, it's not like you have to play against reinstated professionals as well.. oh wait.  Wrong thread.

 

 

Lol. Exactly.  You get it.  

[bladehunter]

Any thoughts On the whole NIL college deal ?  Has there  been any conflict there ?  Or do they get an exemption?   As in if a college golfer makes $ , wouldn’t he forfeit his am status ?  Slightly off topic. Bu I’ve wondered if we won’t see some players  in the future knocked out of the us am ranks by this ? 

Edited March 23, 2023 by bladehunter

[dmecca2]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Any thoughts On the whole NIL college deal ?  Has there  been any conflict there ?  Or do they get an exemption?   As in if a college golfer makes $ , wouldn’t he forfeit his am status ?  Slightly off topic. Bu I’ve wondered if we won’t see some players  in the future knocked out of the us am ranks by this ? 

From what I've seen, this is a very fuzzy area. I believe the USGA change the amateur rules to allow these sponsorships, but I never looked into the exact details.

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

From what I've seen, this is a very fuzzy area. I believe the USGA change the amateur rules to allow these sponsorships, but I never looked into the exact details.

I suspected they might do that.  If so that truly irks me.  I can’t play and cash a $500 check in a local 60 man mini tour event , as a working adult. But a kid can get paid spending money while daddy or the school  pays his way to play golf daily and retain his am status ?  Stinks of hypocrisy if true.  

[dmecca2]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I suspected they might do that.  If so that truly irks me.  I can’t play and cash a $500 check in a local 60 man mini tour event , as a working adult. But a kid can get paid spending money while daddy or the school  pays his way to play golf daily and retain his am status ?  Stinks of hypocrisy if true.  

They did up the limit to $1000 cash in a scratch event. I had to research that part to be sure I wasn't breaking amateur rules. (simulator golf counts too)

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

They did up the limit to $1000 cash in a scratch event. I had to research that part to be sure I wasn't breaking amateur rules. (simulator golf counts too)

That’s good to know. I didn’t catch that.  It’s not an immediate issue because I don’t have time to travel.  but you never know when an event pops up close by that makes sense to enter. 

[So_Cal]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Bro.  Midams are screwed in general until they’re seniors.  Just how it is. We work the most , play the least and have the least events to play in.  Recipe for disadvantage 

Raise mid-am age to 30 and we have a shot 😂

[seanjk123]

Yea, I think that’s my issue with it. Idk how many 1-handicaps have qualified, but can’t imagine the number is huge.
 

I guess one angle I can see is preventing someone that is a true top player from getting paired up with a vanity capper that shoots 90…. That would be unfair if guys like that affect playing partners. I feel like that could be solved through the pairings though.