billyspan Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Consolidation to save $$$ or is this good? https://www.pgatour.com/article/news/latest/2023/04/25/pga-tour-announces-formation-of-pga-tour-americas?webview=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 55 minutes ago, billyspan said: Consolidation to save $$$ or is this good? https://www.pgatour.com/article/news/latest/2023/04/25/pga-tour-announces-formation-of-pga-tour-americas?webview=1 two steps back 1 step forward its a reduction from 16+16 events to just 16, a reduction of members, a reduction in total owgr points for a season, and an increase in travel over the season. will probably be an increase of owgr per event, will probably be an increase in purse per event, and is an increase in korn ferry spots. I wonder if theyre doing this cause canada lost its title sponsor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idrive Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, jimecherry said: two steps back 1 step forward its a reduction from 16+16 events to just 16, a reduction of members, a reduction in total owgr points for a season, and an increase in travel over the season. will probably be an increase of owgr per event, will probably be an increase in purse per event, and is an increase in korn ferry spots. I wonder if theyre doing this cause canada lost its title sponsor? Not sure what article you're reading... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferguson Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 minute ago, idrive said: Not sure what article you're reading... Canada is great place to play golf. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, jimecherry said: two steps back 1 step forward its a reduction from 16+16 events to just 16, a reduction of members, a reduction in total owgr points for a season, and an increase in travel over the season. will probably be an increase of owgr per event, will probably be an increase in purse per event, and is an increase in korn ferry spots. I wonder if theyre doing this cause canada lost its title sponsor? I think you are right @jimecherry. However, this is not unexpected as many of us on here speculated that we will see reduction of opportunities as a result of the new "Designated Events". Time, money, people, etc. will be spent on the top 10 players (Patrick Cantlay...ugh) at the expense of hundreds (if not thousands) of minor tour playing opportunities, community initiatives, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, idrive said: Not sure what article you're reading... https://www.pgatour.com/article/news/latest/2023/04/25/pga-tour-announces-formation-of-pga-tour-americas?webview=1 the article states 16 events across latin america, canada, and the usa = more travel if your from latin america or canada and fewer events cause latin pga has 16 and canada has 16 events. Also i'm assuming 16 fewer events means higher purses. canada and latin tour only give 1-2 cards currently so 10 is an improvement. two tours down to 1 tour means fewer members for sure. And i'm just making an educated guess on the owgr issue. Edited April 25, 2023 by jimecherry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashdn Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, billyspan said: I think you are right @jimecherry. However, this is not unexpected as many of us on here speculated that we will see reduction of opportunities as a result of the new "Designated Events". Time, money, people, etc. will be spent on the top 10 players (Patrick Cantlay...ugh) at the expense of hundreds (if not thousands) of minor tour playing opportunities, community initiatives, etc. Might be more opportunity if PGAT didn't have a stranglehold on professional golf above a certain level in the United States Americas. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 just realized this is also related to korn ferry tour q-school being replaced by a combined pgatour q-school presented by korn ferry. currently canada and latin america are seen as warmups to the kornferry's q-school as you can get a bye for the first stage. that bye is going away with the new q-school which i dont think even has 2 stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 And here's a more optimistic view of the change https://www.mondayq.com/posts/when-one-is-greater-than-two 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bscinstnct Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Canadian players are stoked! Like bring on the sun! Latin players like Isn’t Canada in Alaska? 😳🥶 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedEgg Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 hour ago, smashdn said: Might be more opportunity if PGAT didn't have a stranglehold on professional golf above a certain level in the United States Americas. they have virtual monopoly worldwide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 Maybe it is time for The PGA TOUR, DP World, Korn Ferry Tour and now the PGA TOUR Americas to all use the same points currency (FedEx Points)? A move towards a structure like the ATP (Tennis) Tour would be a plus IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye77 Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, billyspan said: Maybe it is time for The PGA TOUR, DP World, Korn Ferry Tour and now the PGA TOUR Americas to all use the same points currency (FedEx Points)? A move towards a structure like the ATP (Tennis) Tour would be a plus IMO. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, billyspan said: Maybe it is time for The PGA TOUR, DP World, Korn Ferry Tour and now the PGA TOUR Americas to all use the same points currency (FedEx Points)? A move towards a structure like the ATP (Tennis) Tour would be a plus IMO. the main issue with that is you would have to either find a global sponsor or rename it in each region also theres the added complication of weighting lower pga events higher than decent dp world events Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 16 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said: LOL. Come on Hawk! 😉 I believe this issue has been solved in a roundabout way for this season, but a big "loophole" was Korn Ferry members that participated in majors would not receive KF points for their finishes. Shouldn't "minor league" players get points for their finishes in majors and higher tours (especially all of those fully owned by the PGA TOUR)? And not at the expense of their "home tour" standings?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye77 Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 51 minutes ago, billyspan said: Come on Hawk! 😉 I believe this issue has been solved in a roundabout way for this season, but a big "loophole" was Korn Ferry members that participated in majors would not receive KF points for their finishes. Shouldn't "minor league" players get points for their finishes in majors and higher tours (especially all of those fully owned by the PGA TOUR)? And not at the expense of their "home tour" standings?! Okay fine, probably shouldn't have chuckled! But . . . . I was responding to the notion that across all these Tours the points would be called the same thing (just different values, I assume). The FedEx points are unique to qualifying for the playoffs, etc. and unique to the PGA Tour for a lot of reasons. The Tour can't let the DP Tour assign FedEx points for its events, nor the other Tours, unless there is just one big global tour, etc. and things are being completely reworked from top to bottom, IMO. I totally agree with the point you make in the post above re the loophole! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 26, 2023 Author Share Posted April 26, 2023 @Hawkeye77 you are right... I didn't explain my thought well. Yes, this idea would require a complete revamp, but could work well. I was intrigued by the ATP Tour's - Major, Masters, 500 & 250 tournament categories. Especially with the new designated events on the schedule. I'll have to refine this proposal better, but ai think this could provide better branding, a more unified approach and more playing opportunities in the Americas and Europe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 47 minutes ago, billyspan said: @Hawkeye77 you are right... I didn't explain my thought well. Yes, this idea would require a complete revamp, but could work well. I was intrigued by the ATP Tour's - Major, Masters, 500 & 250 tournament categories. Especially with the new designated events on the schedule. I'll have to refine this proposal better, but ai think this could provide better branding, a more unified approach and more playing opportunities in the Americas and Europe. personally i couldnt see the pgatour doing something that could benefit other tour entities outside the USA more than it. Even if you could argue that it would bring more good players to the PGA tour the fact that such a system could potentially create non pga/major events that outclass pga events would probably kill such a plan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashdn Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 21 hours ago, smashdn said: Might be more opportunity if PGAT didn't have a stranglehold on professional golf above a certain level in the United States Americas world. 20 hours ago, FriedEgg said: they have virtual monopoly worldwide I debated that. They certainly have their fingers deep in other parts. DP World Tour goes without question. But event the Japan Tour too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 26, 2023 Author Share Posted April 26, 2023 There would be no major "Tour" in Mexico, Central and South America if it were not for the PGA TOUR's involvement. Golf is just so small in this part of the world. I have first hand knowledge that the PGA TOUR has helped elevate (infrastructure, marketing, tickets, etc.) and secure sponsorship for these events. The Mexican, Colombian and Argentinean domestic tours are just treading water and often are just 36-hole events on Monday/Tuesday. The PGA TOUR essentially rescued the Mexico Open in the late 2000s. Just look at the purse from 2000 vs 2023.... I don't see how a single co-sponsored event in Japan equals a world-wide monopoly. It is a member-run organization. Players from any country are able to become members. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, billyspan said: There would be no major "Tour" in Mexico, Central and South America if it were not for the PGA TOUR's involvement. Golf is just so small in this part of the world. I have first hand knowledge that the PGA TOUR has helped elevate (infrastructure, marketing, tickets, etc.) and secure sponsorship for these events. The Mexican, Colombian and Argentinean domestic tours are just treading water and often are just 36-hole events on Monday/Tuesday. The PGA TOUR essentially rescued the Mexico Open in the late 2000s. Just look at the purse from 2000 vs 2023.... I don't see how a single co-sponsored event in Japan equals a world-wide monopoly. It is a member-run organization. Players from any country are able to become members. you missed the point entirely monopoly doesnt mean an exclusive xenophobic club, also monopolies arent illegal. when people talk about monopolies its about what organizations due to stay monopolies. and the pga tour does alot to stay one in the usa. Edited April 26, 2023 by jimecherry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soloman1 Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 The challenge for the PGA Tour is finding more fingers for the all of the pies 1 Quote i don’t need no stinkin’ shift key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye77 Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 12 minutes ago, Soloman1 said: The challenge for the PGA Tour is finding more fingers for the all of the pies And giving a particular finger to one "tour" and like the three little kittens: "You shall have no pie!" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 heres one more article from espn https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/36288330/canada-latin-america-form-pga-tour-americas interesting tidbit is that the pga acquired both tours in 2012. so this is like a large company buying to smaller businesses to get some extra scale. then years later folding them into the same division and shrinking head count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 6 hours ago, jimecherry said: heres one more article from espn https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/36288330/canada-latin-america-form-pga-tour-americas interesting tidbit is that the pga acquired both tours in 2012. so this is like a large company buying to smaller businesses to get some extra scale. then years later folding them into the same division and shrinking head count. The PGA TOUR had loaned the Canadian Tour money to stay afloat for several season prior to the 2012 acquisition. The Canadian Tour (despite having ~6M golfers in Canada) was insolvent. Similarly the Tour de las Americas was on life-support. The initial structure of PGA Tour Latinoamerica for the 2012 season was a mix of the PGA TOUR, much of the Tour de las Americas staff and the standalone events/host clubs. The PGA TOUR kept the events in place (including long-standing events like the Open de Argentina, and Colombian Open), but purses increased an average of 3x. Let's keep in mind that South America, Central America and Mexico generously have 250K golfers...total. Over half of those residing in Argentina alone. Like the Caribbean Tour, the IMG South American Tour and Tour Sudamericano that came before it, the Tour de las Americas consistently lost money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedronNiall Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 I doubt the PGA and its sponsors would go along with a true consolidation where the best from SA and Canada could walk right in to the Tour Championship/FedEx Cup end of season events. The draw for those is the best known faces battling it out, and I doubt the newly restructured "partners" will have the players to live up to that expected draw. Now, if the consolidation leads to a situation where the partner events can be worked into weekend prime time to fill gaps in the OG PGA event broadcast schedule and produce some spectacular golf from the right personalities or faces I could see that changing. The PGA stays around because first & foremost it is a business driven by business decisions, which are more than ever driven by stats/data/dollars. This roll up wouldn't have happened if it didn't make the most monetary sense and a major shakeup like suddenly infusing the partner tours with FedEx cup points or the like won't happen unless it becomes a viable path to even more long-term sustainability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashdn Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, billyspan said: The PGA TOUR had loaned the Canadian Tour money to stay afloat for several season prior to the 2012 acquisition. The Canadian Tour (despite having ~6M golfers in Canada) was insolvent. Similarly the Tour de las Americas was on life-support. The initial structure of PGA Tour Latinoamerica for the 2012 season was a mix of the PGA TOUR, much of the Tour de las Americas staff and the standalone events/host clubs. The PGA TOUR kept the events in place (including long-standing events like the Open de Argentina, and Colombian Open), but purses increased an average of 3x. Let's keep in mind that South America, Central America and Mexico generously have 250K golfers...total. Over half of those residing in Argentina alone. Like the Caribbean Tour, the IMG South American Tour and Tour Sudamericano that came before it, the Tour de las Americas consistently lost money. Prior to the PGAT obtaining those tours, who were the other tours' competition when it came to attracting players, finding sponsors, tv deals, etc? Edited April 27, 2023 by smashdn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 (edited) @smashdn Good question! I can only speak to the S. American tours as far as first-hand knowledge. The various "continent-wide" tours in S.A. competitors were only the Argentinean and Colombian domestic tours for much of that history. I use the word "tour" loosely here as most of the the events were national opens that were largely independently run by each nation's organization. The biggest issue that S.A. faces is lack of participation (and golf being 99% private) and of course, competition by other more accessible sports (football, tennis, baseball, cycling, water polo, men's field hockey, volleyball, etc. are ALL much bigger than golf). Gosh, in the 90s, there were probably around 100K golfers in Central and South America combined! Canada's issue is it is too easy for homegrown professionals to join the US-based tour. The PGA TOUR should really explore 2-3 events in Canada each year. They used to have an event in British Columbia (I believe the Truckee-Tahoe event replaced it) and many US professionals used to participate in the Canadian PGA Championship as well. See the chart below for some other relevant data (2023 estimates): Edited April 27, 2023 by billyspan updated stats table 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimecherry Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 55 minutes ago, billyspan said: See the chart below for some other relevant data (2023 estimates): interesting nothing on china i'm assuming that the ccp is withholding that info. Also i find it hard to believe africa which should contain UAE, the middle east, and south africa are equal to norway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyspan Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 (edited) Hello @jimecherry I have not added a few countries or the Middle East. Please note that these are 2023 "best estimates" based on numbers from a variety of sources (R&A estimates 66.6M total, I get closer to 70M) China ~ .6M Middle East ~ .13M (over half of those in the UAE alone) Africa number should be .16M. Does not include the Middle East. South Africa ~ .15M *updated the table in the post above. Edited April 27, 2023 by billyspan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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