Using cigar smoke to determine wind direction

[Golferpaul]

One of my golf buddies says it is illegal to use cigar smoke to determine wind direction.  I can't find any rule that says it's illegal.  

 

Any thoughts?

[rogolf]

Rule 4.3a(2)

"Information on Wind and Other Weather Conditions,

Not Allowed:

• Using an artificial object to get other wind-related information (such as using powder, a handkerchief or a ribbon to asses wind direction)."

[ChipStrokes]

 

[Desert Golf]

I’m not a rules expert but I’d argue that a cigar is not an “artificial object”.  It’s pure, unadulterated tobacco….all natural.

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Desert Golf said:

I’m not a rules expert but I’d argue that a cigar is not an “artificial object”.  It’s pure, unadulterated tobacco….all natural.

it's manufactured into a cigar.  Simply smoking isn't a violation by itself, just like having a flag on your buggy, but specifically using the smoke to gage the wind is.  We have to rely on the player's integrity as to his intent.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

I read where making it illegal, unless you actually smoke the cigar.....

[Mr. Bean]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:15 AM, davep043 said:

it's manufactured into a cigar.  Simply smoking isn't a violation by itself, just like having a flag on your buggy, but specifically using the smoke to gage the wind is.  We have to rely on the player's integrity as to his intent.

 

Exactly.

 

Slightly off this topic, but cigar smoke is equally accurate as grass thrown in the air. That is, it works if there are no trees or other obstacles preventing free flow of the air. It is utterly hilarious to watch wannabepros throwing grass in the air on a teeing ground surrounded by thick forest from three sides 🤣

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Mr. Bean
typo

[Mr. Bean]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:08 AM, Desert Golf said:

I’m not a rules expert but I’d argue that a cigar is not an “artificial object”.  It’s pure, unadulterated tobacco….all natural.

 

Just like a dinner table made of wood, right..? Not an artificial object, no way...

 

 

[davep043]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just like a dinner table made of wood, right..? Not an artificial object, no way...

A tree is a natural part of the course,  a fallen branch is a Loose Impediment,  a piece of lumber is a Moveable Obstruction, a wooden fence is an Immovable Obstruction.  All of them started out as natural.

[Naptime]

Grass flying in the air over a golfer's head isn't really a natural object either.  😀  Someone had to uproot it and toss it.  A leaf falling naturally from a tree is actually natural.  Seems a bit like debating how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F

Edited May 7, 2023 by Naptime

[IndyArcher]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:15 PM, davep043 said:

it's manufactured into a cigar.  Simply smoking isn't a violation by itself, just like having a flag on your buggy, but specifically using the smoke to gage the wind is.  We have to rely on the player's integrity as to his intent.

This is curious to me. So players use picked grass all the time so that’s obviously okay. What if I carry a milkweed pod around and use the fibers from that?

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Naptime said:

Grass flying in the air over a golfer's head isn't really a natural object either.  

 

It is a natural object and a Loose Impediment. Nobody has manufactured it into a specific artificial object.

[davep043]

11 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

This is curious to me. So players use picked grass all the time so that’s obviously okay. What if I carry a milkweed pod around and use the fibers from that?

Rule 4.3 draw a line between using something natural to get information about the wind (a bit of grass) and using something that has been manufactured (talcum powder).  Rule 15 and the Definitions draw the same type of distinction between a Loose Impediment and a Moveable Obstruction.  It seems pretty logical to draw the lines in approximately the same place for two different Rules.

[IndyArcher]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Rule 4.3 draw a line between using something natural to get information about the wind (a bit of grass) and using something that has been manufactured (talcum powder).  Rule 15 and the Definitions draw the same type of distinction between a Loose Impediment and a Moveable Obstruction.  It seems pretty logical to draw the lines in approximately the same place for two different Rules.

 

Thanks, Dave. The reason that I ask is that in my archery/hunting experience, wind is a big factor as well. I've used milkweed fibers for years to watch wind direction. It would seem that it would work well for golf, too, though I never considered that until this thread. 

 

It's still not clear in my head as the whole Tiger phenomenon with the boulder considered a 'loose impediment' kind of scrambled my brain on that one a bit. 

 

As I read your comment, I would interpret that as suggesting that milkweed would likely not be a problem?

[davep043]

1 minute ago, IndyArcher said:

It's still not clear in my head as the whole Tiger phenomenon with the boulder considered a 'loose impediment' kind of scrambled my brain on that one a bit. 

 

As I read your comment, I would interpret that as suggesting that milkweed would likely not be a problem?

In the Tiger situation, I believe the rock was simply resting on the ground, not embedded.  The boulder was probably naturally occurring, so was a Loose Impediment rather than an Obstruction.

As for milkweed, or any other kind of plant, I'd say its probably acceptable to use to assess wind speed and direction.

[Naptime]

If it's winter and the clubhouse fireplace is going are we supposed to ignore the chimney smoke?

[sittingbull]

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Naptime said:

If it's winter and the clubhouse fireplace is going are we supposed to ignore the chimney smoke?

I suggest you read the title of Rule 4.3a, and the Definition of Equipment.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Naptime said:

If it's winter and the clubhouse fireplace is going are we supposed to ignore the chimney smoke?

 

Absolutely! And equally you are not allowed to watch how the trees bend in the wind but you must keep your head down at all times.

[Naptime]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

I suggest you read the title of Rule 4.3a, and the Definition of Equipment.

 

Hi Dave, I'm not debating the rules, just offering the opinion that some of them seem unrealistically silly.  But golf at its core is an entertaining silliness, or a good walk spoiled, as others have noted.  😀

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, Naptime said:

 

Hi Dave, I'm not debating the rules, just offering the opinion that some of them seem unrealistically silly.  But golf at its core is an entertaining silliness, or a good walk spoiled, as others have noted.  😀

Any time you need to have a Rule draw a definitive line, the exact location of that line can be perceived as "silly".  But when you gain a bit more knowledge, when you look at the larger picture, the consistency of the lines drawn in the Rules of Golf begin to make a lot more sense.  

[Mr. Bean]

30 minutes ago, Naptime said:

 

Hi Dave, I'm not debating the rules, just offering the opinion that some of them seem unrealistically silly.  But golf at its core is an entertaining silliness, or a good walk spoiled, as others have noted.  😀

 

Think about it from this point of view:

 

Anything that is already there you may use but you may not install and use anything artificial to gauge the direction or speed of the wind. Existing things may be trees, flags, smoke, dust, tumbleweed, dead leaves and even publicly available weather data from a nearby weather station. You yourself may make use of anything natural you find from the course, such as throwing grass or fine dirt in the air.

 

Suddenly it begins to make very much sense.

[Pepperturbo]

On 5/5/2023 at 2:15 PM, davep043 said:

it's manufactured into a cigar.  Simply smoking isn't a violation by itself, just like having a flag on your buggy, but specifically using the smoke to gage the wind is.  We have to rely on the player's integrity as to his intent.

Agree. 

 

Being a cigar smoker since 2k, played in many tournaments while enjoying a great cigar.  I have a cigar holder divot tool that I use when I about to address the ball.  Usually I place it about 3-4' in front of me, as I address the ball.  I won't ever lay my cigar on the ground, it absorbs chemicals.  Anyway, never in any event has anyone questioned my intentions.  Furthermore, I wouldn't use cigar smoke as an indicator.  Why?  Because typically wind comes into play near the tree top line and above; not 6' or 1" off the ground.  I always chuckle "under my breath" when someone throws up turf to gage windage, that's about as valuable as cigarette or cigar smoke...NOT.

 

I do recall playing with a two weasel males that openly questioned if windage was reason for me smoking cigars.  Mind you, just a couple of strangers, and I was a walk-on.  No man worth his salt, smokes $20-$30 premium cigar intended to measure windage.  But a weasel smoking a $3 cigar might be a cheater match made in weasel haven.

[Naptime]

So if another player happens to be smoking a cigar you can use his smoke as an indicator of wind direction since it's "already there?"  

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, Naptime said:

So if another player happens to be smoking a cigar you can use his smoke as an indicator of wind direction since it's "already there?"  

 

Yes. But you may not ask the other player to place the cigar in order to get you more information.

 

It is all about intent.

[vandyfan]

Just as long as they actually throw their cigars away. The amount of spent cigars I find/see just sitting on and around the greens and tee boxes at my local golf course is infuriating. Just throw them out please. I have to pick them up and throw them away myself because (I guess this is a me problem) I can't just see trash and not throw it away. 

[stevopagolf]

On 5/5/2023 at 3:52 PM, Golferpaul said:

One of my golf buddies says it is illegal to use cigar smoke to determine wind direction.  I can't find any rule that says it's illegal.  

 

Any thoughts?

Get a new playing partner--wow.  ^^ is a crazy interpretation of the rules.  In the 70's Arnie and others smoked 1 lung dart after another.  Even during majors.  I've seen some crazy discussions on GolfWrx but this ranks up there!  Tell him it's not a wind gauge but a women and bug repellent.....cigars are good at both.

 

Not meant to be a flame thrower and I can't believe how many including me responded!  I'm retired I got nothing else to do at the moment as the course is closed and the landscape work is complete for the day!

Edited May 8, 2023 by stevopagolf
spelling

[Golferpaul]

On 5/8/2023 at 2:55 PM, vandyfan said:

Just as long as they actually throw their cigars away. The amount of spent cigars I find/see just sitting on and around the greens and tee boxes at my local golf course is infuriating. Just throw them out please. I have to pick them up and throw them away myself because (I guess this is a me problem) I can't just see trash and not throw it away. 

They will disintegrate after the next rain and become mulch.  No need to pick them up.

[Golferpaul]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:07 PM, stevopagolf said:

Get a new playing partner--wow.  ^^ is a crazy interpretation of the rules.  In the 70's Arnie and others smoked 1 lung dart after another.  Even during majors.  I've seen some crazy discussions on GolfWrx but this ranks up there!  Tell him it's not a wind gauge but a women and bug repellent.....cigars are good at both.

 

Not meant to be a flame thrower and I can't believe how many including me responded!  I'm retired I got nothing else to do at the moment as the course is closed and the landscape work is complete for the day!

It's a legitimate rules question.   He didn't say you can't smoke.  But you can't use your smoke to intentionally gauge the wind which most here appear to agree with.

[Pepperturbo]

On 5/8/2023 at 12:55 PM, vandyfan said:

Just as long as they actually throw their cigars away. The amount of spent cigars I find/see just sitting on and around the greens and tee boxes at my local golf course is infuriating. Just throw them out please. I have to pick them up and throw them away myself because (I guess this is a me problem) I can't just see trash and not throw it away. 

FYI: Cigar foots are biodegradable; they dissolve into the ground.  Before I disregard one, I remove cigar ring and put that in the trash.  Cigarette butts are not biodegradable.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Pepperturbo