Eligibility for a Major

[Rapidcat]

So let's open this up then....so why have the dates of the PGA Championship been moved to earlier in the year?

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, Rapidcat said:

So let's open this up then....so why have the dates of the PGA Championship been moved to earlier in the year?

I don’t know. I suspect that nfl or college football tv times are the issue.  Or some other TV issue. Otherwise I have no clue. 

[Rapidcat]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t know. I suspect that nfl or college football tv times are the issue.  Or some other TV issue. Otherwise I have no clue. 

 

So Blade, I'm not having a pop at you personally in any way, just that you are the first to reply (thankyou) so this is a general answer, not in any way aimed at you.

 

So we have a world golf major change dates because of a US football clash, a sport that few outside the US care about?

 

And it gets moved to a date that it gets severely weather compromised.

 

So totally mismanaged.

 

Add that you have a compromised field with 20 USPGA club pros that again, the rest of the world cares nothing for and aren't good enough players to qualify for a major anyway.

 

But it's supposed to be a world major?

 

Just absurd.

 

Re-designate this to an Asian major in Japan/South Korea.

[PedronNiall]

Yes, not having to compete with even pre-season football is part of the reason for the move. This format apparently keeps ratings more stable. 

 

Weird take that literally the strongest field in the Majors shouldn't be one simply because PGA teaching pros are allowed into it. Can't understand the logic there. Almost all of the top 100 in golf are present every year--99 of 100 this year--which absolutely means the field couldn't be any more competitive than it is. Anyone outside of that group who wins was a longshot, so there's really no downside in allowing some of the non-playing pros a few spots. Does nothing to lessen the ability it takes to win, on top of many of those courses playing near the best of US Open offerings. 

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

So Blade, I'm not having a pop at you personally in any way, just that you are the first to reply (thankyou) so this is a general answer, not in any way aimed at you.

 

So we have a world golf major change dates because of a US football clash, a sport that few outside the US care about?

 

And it gets moved to a date that it gets severely weather compromised.

 

So totally mismanaged.

 

Add that you have a compromised field with 20 USPGA club pros that again, the rest of the world cares nothing for and aren't good enough players to qualify for a major anyway.

 

But it's supposed to be a world major?

 

Just absurd.

 

Re-designate this to an Asian major in Japan/South Korea.

No offense taken.  
 

I 99 % agree with you. I’m not a nfl or nba fan.  At all. 
 

my 1 % gripe is moving it to where ? Australia Japan or South Korea is the only tenable possibility …. but at the risk of pushing a button , my holdback is related to isolationist tendencies….I just can’t see extending that to a place that seems so quick to be so restrictive.  As much as the pga doesn’t click my imagination , losing a major for 2-3 years over restrictive reactions would be much worse.  

[Rapidcat]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

No offense taken.  
 

I 99 % agree with you. I’m not a nfl or nba fan.  At all. 
 

my 1 % gripe is moving it to where ? Australia Japan or South Korea is the only tenable possibility …. but at the risk of pushing a button , my holdback is related to isolationist tendencies….I just can’t see extending that to a place that seems so quick to be so restrictive.  As much as the pga doesn’t click my imagination , losing a major for 2-3 years over restrictive reactions would be much worse.  

 

Yep, the c*vid isolationist reaction by my country (and states within my country) I think has taken Australia out of the equation, I wouldn't trust us year on year with a major, either.

 

Not sure about Japan and South Korea in regards to isolationism.

 

Maybe have it rotate between Asian countries, you can include about a dozen countries with sensational courses in that. If one country can't hold it, just move it to another.

[jdl]

13 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

So Blade, I'm not having a pop at you personally in any way, just that you are the first to reply (thankyou) so this is a general answer, not in any way aimed at you.

 

So we have a world golf major change dates because of a US football clash, a sport that few outside the US care about?

 

And it gets moved to a date that it gets severely weather compromised.

 

So totally mismanaged.

 

Add that you have a compromised field with 20 USPGA club pros that again, the rest of the world cares nothing for and aren't good enough players to qualify for a major anyway.

 

But it's supposed to be a world major?

 

Just absurd.

 

Re-designate this to an Asian major in Japan/South Korea.

It's happened to pretty much all sports as well as many other aspects of life. Money drives it and thus the US TV market has an overwhelming influence on the schedule. Not likely to change any time soon.

[Rapidcat]

13 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Yes, not having to compete with even pre-season football is part of the reason for the move. This format apparently keeps ratings more stable. 

 

Weird take that literally the strongest field in the Majors shouldn't be one simply because PGA teaching pros are allowed into it. Can't understand the logic there. Almost all of the top 100 in golf are present every year--99 of 100 this year--which absolutely means the field couldn't be any more competitive than it is. Anyone outside of that group who wins was a longshot, so there's really no downside in allowing some of the non-playing pros a few spots. Does nothing to lessen the ability it takes to win, on top of many of those courses playing near the best of US Open offerings. 

 

I can see your point re field strength but my position is on field 'purity'. For me the 20 PGA club pros pollute the field too much for me to have this offset by the rest of the field strength.

 

If any of these 20 club pros want to play, let them qualify like everyone else - bet they can't because they're not good enough, otherwise they'd be tour pros.

 

A major has world standing, so giving a route for USPGA club pros isn't acceptable to me. By all means, have that, but that relegates the event below a major.

[Rapidcat]

5 minutes ago, jdl said:

It's happened to pretty much all sports as well as many other aspects of life. Money drives it and thus the US TV market has an overwhelming influence on the schedule. Not likely to change any time soon.

 

It has changed though....enter the PIF.

[jdl]

5 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

It has changed though....enter the PIF.

Yeah, not really though.

[PedronNiall]

3 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

I can see your point re field strength but my position is on field 'purity'. For me the 20 PGA club pros pollute the field too much for me to have this offset by the rest of the field strength.

 

If any of these 20 club pros want to play, let them qualify like everyone else - bet they can't because they're not good enough, otherwise they'd be tour pros.

 

A major has world standing, so giving a route for USPGA club pros isn't acceptable to me. By all means, have that, but that relegates the event below a major.

Going to get into some of your other replies and then address this one at the end. 

 

Regarding the thought they shouldn't have moved the men's Majors:

 

There might not be that many around the world who care about American football, but those outside the US who would rather the Majors happen later do not outweigh the viewing dollars lost to competing with the NFL here in the states, it's really that simple. It's not like every country in the world who wants to see golf is going to field their own crews to broadcast the events; they pay for broadcast rights from the major networks here. While those dollars are a nice addition during the right times, on their own they aren't enough to beat out NFL viewership money, just the facts of life. 

 

As to getting an Asian or world Major, again, follow the money:

 

The LPGA/LET went that route because more money flows into the game from Asia now thanks to dominant Asian players, and there are dominant Asian players who make that a market of choice to cater to there. The LPGA has decided to take a more global focus with Majors because world golf, most notably Asian golf, swelled the coffers, where as viewership is still not all that great in the US. 

 

The tag line for the men's Majors, however, is tradition. They aren't going to suddenly move to a world format unless there's an event that meets the expectations of those up top regarding what a major should be, and there's really not one that exists. There aren't even that many world events that get coverage for people globally to know what they are besides the Australian Open. 

 

Also keep in mind that there are already events like The Player's that boast most of the Top 100 and have an established history that have implicitly or tacitly been trying to be seen as a Major for years, along with events like The Western Open that used to be considered one or The Canadian that have an established history. 

 

Yes, PIF is in the picture now, but even the conglomerate being formed is not going to sign onto a losing proposition by throwing money at a market just because. The US market bolstered by Canada & the UK through broadcasting rights is the unquestionable bulk of viewing dollars for men's golf. Until a larger portion of viewership comes from other areas of the world, there's no business proposition for it. Asian women's events still aren't blockbuster draws, but they beat out many domestic views for LPGA events, so there's justification to play moneyball and send more tournaments that way. Until that's the case with men's golf, you're fighting the money & tradition behemoths at the same time. Good luck winning that battle. 

 

Lastly, to your purity of field argument about the PGA, I'm sorry, but you're just one person. 

 

Most people see a field of most or all of the top 100 as prestigious enough. The PGA used to be called "Glory's last shot", mostly noting its end of year slot, but also seemingly in a nod to the fact that it's the one place the other body of professionals can show up and compete to try and turn it on for four days and show what they've got. Ignoring that or not, most see it as a Major-worthy event, full stop. It's a bit much to say something with that much history should just be dumped because a handful don't see it as valid or, holding to your other argument, want a more international major venue. 

 

Is there an established body anywhere offering proposals around the justification for & pathway to a world Major? Are there any consistent calls from foreign-born PGA or DP World players or board members for such? Lastly, are there any sponsors calling for one? If even the C.R.E.A.M. guys aren't clamoring for it that's always telling. 

 

Neither tradition nor money are on the side of a world Major.

[Rapidcat]

4 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Going to get into some of your other replies and then address this one at the end. 

 

Regarding the thought they shouldn't have moved the men's Majors:

 

There might not be that many around the world who care about American football, but those outside the US who would rather the Majors happen later do not outweigh the viewing dollars lost to competing with the NFL here in the states, it's really that simple. It's not like every country in the world who wants to see golf is going to field their own crews to broadcast the events; they pay for broadcast rights from the major networks here. While those dollars are a nice addition during the right times, on their own they aren't enough to beat out NFL viewership money, just the facts of life. 

 

As to getting an Asian or world Major, again, follow the money:

 

The LPGA/LET went that route because more money flows into the game from Asia now thanks to dominant Asian players, and there are dominant Asian players who make that a market of choice to cater to there. The LPGA has decided to take a more global focus with Majors because world golf, most notably Asian golf, swelled the coffers, where as viewership is still not all that great in the US. 

 

The tag line for the men's Majors, however, is tradition. They aren't going to suddenly move to a world format unless there's an event that meets the expectations of those up top regarding what a major should be, and there's really not one that exists. There aren't even that many world events that get coverage for people globally to know what they are besides the Australian Open. 

 

Also keep in mind that there are already events like The Player's that boast most of the Top 100 and have an established history that have implicitly or tacitly been trying to be seen as a Major for years, along with events like The Western Open that used to be considered one or The Canadian that have an established history. 

 

Yes, PIF is in the picture now, but even the conglomerate being formed is not going to sign onto a losing proposition by throwing money at a market just because. The US market bolstered by Canada & the UK through broadcasting rights is the unquestionable bulk of viewing dollars for men's golf. Until a larger portion of viewership comes from other areas of the world, there's no business proposition for it. Asian women's events still aren't blockbuster draws, but they beat out many domestic views for LPGA events, so there's justification to play moneyball and send more tournaments that way. Until that's the case with men's golf, you're fighting the money & tradition behemoths at the same time. Good luck winning that battle. 

 

Lastly, to your purity of field argument about the PGA, I'm sorry, but you're just one person. 

 

Most people see a field of most or all of the top 100 as prestigious enough. The PGA used to be called "Glory's last shot", mostly noting its end of year slot, but also seemingly in a nod to the fact that it's the one place the other body of professionals can show up and compete to try and turn it on for four days and show what they've got. Ignoring that or not, most see it as a Major-worthy event, full stop. It's a bit much to say something with that much history should just be dumped because a handful don't see it as valid or, holding to your other argument, want a more international major venue. 

 

Is there an established body anywhere offering proposals around the justification for & pathway to a world Major? Are there any consistent calls from foreign-born PGA or DP World players or board members for such? Lastly, are there any sponsors calling for one? If even the C.R.E.A.M. guys aren't clamoring for it that's always telling. 

 

Neither tradition nor money are on the side of a world Major.

 

Thanks for your reply, lots of thought.

 

The mistake that most make re the PIF is applying western business KPI's to what they should do.

 

Maybe they're in it for other reasons? Certainly they need pay no attention to turning a profit from golf for decades if they choose.

 

As to world majors...3 out of 4 in the US is 1 or 2 too many.

 

It's a world game, similar to tennis.

[farmer]

I suspect moving the PGA was a move intended to try and elevate the FEDEX into major consideration, or, at the very least, not compete.

BTW, Texas is not an SEC state.  The two wealthiest schools have chosen to chase even more money.  Every other school in Texas says "good riddance".

Edited June 17, 2023 by farmer

[jdl]

5 minutes ago, farmer said:

I suspect moving the PGA was a move intended to try and elevate the FEDEX into major consideration, or, at the very least, not compete.

BTW, Texas is not an SEC state.  The two wealthiest schools have chosen to chase even more money.  Every other school in Texas says "good riddance".

No, it was moved so the FedEx playoffs can finish before football starts and the small TV ratings get even smaller.

[widow-maker]

2 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Yep, The Masters also is a compromised field, thanks for conforming that. not a proper major.

 

The 2 Open majors are pure because anyone can qualify, am or pro.

 

The PGA championship still have 20 USPGA club pros whose playing skills shouldn't qualify them to play in a major. Doesn't mean the event shouldn't exist, just that it shouldn't be a major in its current format.

 

So why have the dates of the PGA Championship been moved to earlier in the year?

Nobody claimed that the PGA Championship is supposed to pass some kind of purity test.  Regardless, it gives us the strongest field of all the Majors and its established status as a Major can't be changed because no organization controls what is and what isn't a Major.  The USGA can't claim that they're a Major and the other Majors aren't.  They don't have the power.  If the PGA Tour had the power they'd have declared The Players Championship the 5th Major a long time ago.  But, nobody cares what they think about the subject because they don't get to say what is and what isn't a Major.  It is what it is at this point and it's not changing. 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Yep, the c*vid isolationist reaction by my country (and states within my country) I think has taken Australia out of the equation, I wouldn't trust us year on year with a major, either.

 

Not sure about Japan and South Korea in regards to isolationism.

 

Maybe have it rotate between Asian countries, you can include about a dozen countries with sensational courses in that. If one country can't hold it, just move it to another.

Man. I sure appreciate that you understood what I said meant no hate whatsoever.  I am often misunderstood as hateful , when facts have to stated. I hope that changes for you in the future.  I truly do.  
 

you are probably correct in Japan or South Korea.   

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Because it reflects world golf.

 

Most of the women's major champions are now Asian, perhaps that doesn't count with you?

Not for the men’s game.  Move the Evian LPGA major to Asia I would be on board with.

 

3 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Don't be rude please, of course I follow sports.

 

Restrain your displeasure.

 

It might surprise you that few outside the US follow US sports - US football, baseball, even US basketball.

 

This is a golf forum.

You don’t have to follow American sports to answer.  Do you follow rugby? Aussie football? Premier League?

[James the Hogan Fan]

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Not for the men’s game.  Move the Evian LPGA major to Asia I would be on board with.

 

You don’t have to follow American sports to answer.  Do you follow rugby? Aussie football? Premier League?

 

Well there's a difference between the Miami Heat sneaking into the NBA Playoffs (Or the Western Bulldogs making it into the AFL finals) or whatever as the last seed vs the PGA Championship, that would be like the NBA playoffs reserving a spot

for a handful of wildcard slots for a random college team and a group of high school all-stars. As in "who are you and where did you come from"

 

In my opinion the presence of the club pros is exactly what makes the PGA a major; it's NOT justa regular tour event because someone else is running it and there are other players who normally wouldn't be there.

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

Well there's a difference between the Miami Heat sneaking into the NBA Playoffs (Or the Western Bulldogs making it into the AFL finals) or whatever as the last seed vs the PGA Championship, that would be like the NBA playoffs reserving a spot

for a handful of wildcard slots for a random college team and a group of high school all-stars. As in "who are you and where did you come from"

 

In my opinion the presence of the club pros is exactly what makes the PGA a major; it's NOT justa regular tour event because someone else is running it and there are other players who normally wouldn't be there.

And I agree with you.  He claims to believe the club pros weaken the field in the PGA but then also believes the presence of qualifiers makes the Opens stronger.

 

I have a hard time believing a couple rounds of qualifying to determine the field is better than using actual results in professional events over time. ie OWGR.

[cdnglf]

5 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

So let's open this up then....so why have the dates of the PGA Championship been moved to earlier in the year?

Olympic golf was one of the reasons, iirc.

[redfirebird08]

12 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

 

 

The two real majors are being played right now and next month.

 

 

 

 

 

The Open Championship allows past champions to keep playing until age 60, even though many of them are completely washed up by age 50. The Open & U.S. Open also bring in a bunch of qualifiers who get lucky in the qualifying rounds, but have absolutely zero chance of competing in the real event. Both fields are loaded with these kind of guys, some of them amateurs. 

[cdnglf]

23 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

 

The Open Championship allows past champions to keep playing until age 60, even though many of them are completely washed up by age 50. The Open & U.S. Open also bring in a bunch of qualifiers who get lucky in the qualifying rounds, but have absolutely zero chance of competing in the real event. Both fields are loaded with these kind of guys, some of them amateurs. 

The Players isn’t. Just saying…

[redfirebird08]

45 minutes ago, cdnglf said:

The Players isn’t. Just saying…

 

Strongest field in golf for sure. Koepka ain't wrong when he says the majors are easier to win than a number of regular events. The major fields are loaded with guys who physically have no chance (old guys, teaching professionals, etc) or mentally have no chance. 

[cdnglf]

46 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

Strongest field in golf for sure. Koepka ain't wrong when he says the majors are easier to win than a number of regular events. The major fields are loaded with guys who physically have no chance (old guys, teaching professionals, etc) or mentally have no chance. 

They’ve certainly got filler, but I can’t think of any other events that would rival the 3 full-field majors and the players. By the old OWGR, they were the four strongest tournaments virtually every year.

 

The major filler is offset by their “full full” fields of 156 (players is 144). And the fact that they draw all the top players. Pretty rare for a guy to miss except for injury / family emergency.

All the top PGA Tour events I can think of are limited field - the playoffs 125 or fewer, the invitationals and elevated events 120, WGCs ~80. And even those rarely draw all the top 20, much less top 50 (or 100 in the case of the PGA)