Another modest proposal for the “distance problem”—stick to the white tees until you’re scratch

[dropkicked]

I don't care what tee's people decide to play from as long as the POP, is maintained...

 

 

[AltC]

5 minutes ago, dropkicked said:

I don't care what tee's people decide to play from as long as the POP, is maintained...

 

 

That’s fine but what is pace of play on the course you play that day - I am a member at a golf course in the Philippines where the stated pace of play is 4:48 - admittedly it is a very tough hilly track (mandatory carts with caddies) - but often 5plus hour rounds due to “slow play” - I am a Scotsman - back home if you aren’t round in 3:40 walking and carrying- they will get you off the course - so pace of play is a very subjective term. I think playing forward would benefit pace of play in both instances- however in Asia Superman on his big day out reign supreme- but won’t let any faster groups through - no problem playing 5 hours in Scotland- so long as you let every group through who catches you 

[Retrop1]

Since we live in a society where people love to play the victim, it could be said that all of these courses that are adding length are actually enabling ill equipped golfers to play even more challenging courses, therefore slowing down rounds, therefore impacting all of our enjoyment of the game 🤣😂🤣😂

[nitram]

I'm all about folks enjoying themselves on the golf course, and that includes me. PoP is totally out of hand these days. With the adoption of the "double bogey rule" a few years ago, there's no reason for the higher caps continuing to play the hole once they reach the benchmark. For example, if you're lying 6 in a bunker on a Par 4, pick it up and proceed to the next tee. This is not practice. There is a time and place for that.

 

The Euro's have it right. Before a beginner is allowed to play a course they have to take a lesson or two on Golf 101. Basically, a beginner lesson with etiquette and a few general rules thrown in. Once they successfully complete this, they are granted a card and paired with a better golfer until they establish a handicap. I've played in Scotland, Ireland, England, and Spain over the past two decades and have never endured the PoP issues that are so common here in the U.S. these days. It is fixable, but the course management has to have the balls to do what is necessary to make it happen.

[Morkler]

14 minutes ago, nitram said:

I'm all about folks enjoying themselves on the golf course, and that includes me. PoP is totally out of hand these days. With the adoption of the "double bogey rule" a few years ago, there's no reason for the higher caps continuing to play the hole once they reach the benchmark. For example, if you're lying 6 in a bunker on a Par 4, pick it up and proceed to the next tee. This is not practice. There is a time and place for that.

 

The Euro's have it right. Before a beginner is allowed to play a course they have to take a lesson or two on Golf 101. Basically, a beginner lesson with etiquette and a few general rules thrown in. Once they successfully complete this, they are granted a card and paired with a better golfer until they establish a handicap. I've played in Scotland, Ireland, England, and Spain over the past two decades and have never endured the PoP issues that are so common here in the U.S. these days. It is fixable, but the course management has to have the balls to do what is necessary to make it happen.

 

I agree that there should be a golf 101 about etiquette and pace of play.  Maybe not to the extent of Europe but something at least.  This is the primary pet peeve of mine and probably most golfers in the know.  I don't think it matters what tees are played as long as people are aware of their pace and pay attention to the group behind and ahead.  One of my "favorites" are the duffers that wait for the green to clear on a short par 4, because they think they are going to drive the green 🤣

[GoGoErky]

34 minutes ago, AltC said:

That’s fine but what is pace of play on the course you play that day - I am a member at a golf course in the Philippines where the stated pace of play is 4:48 - admittedly it is a very tough hilly track (mandatory carts with caddies) - but often 5plus hour rounds due to “slow play” - I am a Scotsman - back home if you aren’t round in 3:40 walking and carrying- they will get you off the course - so pace of play is a very subjective term. I think playing forward would benefit pace of play in both instances- however in Asia Superman on his big day out reign supreme- but won’t let any faster groups through - no problem playing 5 hours in Scotland- so long as you let every group through who catches you 

Pace of play is whatever the course sets. I play several courses where it’s 4:30 and it’s enforced. They have people playing tees that make a challenging course even more challenging, but pace is maintained with a few exceptions over the course of a year. 
 

For some the challenge is the fun or enjoyment they seek. so shooting mid 80s or 90s from 6500 rather than low 80a from 6000 or less is what keeps them coming back and trying to get better from that distance. 

[AltC]

Noted ertsky but I am pretty sure everyone wants to walk off with a seventy or eighty round on their card rather that 5 hours to shoot 92? Just saying 

[GoGoErky]

34 minutes ago, AltC said:

Noted ertsky but I am pretty sure everyone wants to walk off with a seventy or eighty round on their card rather that 5 hours to shoot 92? Just saying 

I’m sure there are a mix of people that don’t care about the time and what they shoot and those who would like a 70, but many are realistic they aren’t going to shoot in the 70s.

 

Ive played with guys who shoot the same from 5700 that they do from 6300-6500 on the same course. 

[st1800e]

TLDR all of it.  
Round and round it goes….

good luck enforcing  your proposal.  

[755i]

A not so good golfer (15 or more) who understands and respects POP can play 6500+ and be fine. A better golfer (15 or less) who does not understand or care about POP can play less than 6000 and take forever...

 

 

  

 

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

I seldom hold back anybody's pace of play regardless of which tee I play.

Most mid to low handicappers are better than I am because currently they are better at two things.

 

1. Putting

2. Wedge Play

 

Yet, if I play alone I usually play the white tees. I do agree with the OP that it makes sense to move back as your skills improve. But what skills need to improve?
 

In a tournament this is regulated, but in normal recreational play it is harder to coordinate. Plus, if every group has to tee off at the Black tees, another at the white tees and god forbid a THIRD at the red tees....... how is this going to be better than the Black or white tees, or red tees? So the only way for it to work is to play the lowest designated tee for the group.

Will low cappers want to comply with that?

 

Yet it would be a mess and since when do golfers book tee times according to a neatly laid out skills gradient? 😄

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Oh, and if I had a dollar for every low capper I could hang with off the tee if they played White and I played Black, I'd probably retire. (I kid.... I kid....) 😄

 

But seriously, if I play from the tips with better golfers, we usually are comparable in that regard. A shank stinks from any tee. 😛

Edited August 15, 2023 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[Warrior42111]

Probably going to repeat others as I didn't go through all 3 pages but...

 

Tee selection is such a small factor in PoP, it's more looking for balls, playing up doesn't fix a slice, not walking to balls in a shared cart, not lining up putts when others are putting etc.

 

Most golfers, at least in the states don't carry a HC

 

A large majority of golfers, I think around 80% can't even break 100, why not remove the back tees, as you said why should the minority rule?

 

Just my thoughts on picking tees. I tend to look at a course if it isn't one I frequent, and see what tees would let me use my whole bag the most based on an average round. Going way up front is fun here and there, but going Driver/FW wedge all day is boring. Same on the tips having to go driver long iron on FW all day seems tedious. 

[Nard_S]

Honest if extra 20 minutes or 1/2 hour blow your game, you got no game. If you need to be somewhere, you should not play that day. When I said that to myself, the whole PoP issue went away for me. I never get frustrated with it anymore and just don't care. Walk off happy more often too.

[mshills]

If you want to improve pace of play, ban alcohol on the course. That is the primary offender, not people playing the wrong tees. 
 

Good luck with enforcing either one. 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

LOL!!! +1^

 

Honestly, I feel like I must be spoiled here in NC because pace of play is usually not a problem. There are a fair amount of selections for courses and always several good ones off the beaten path away from the city. Longest POP was 5hrs a couple weeks ago behind a few drunkards, but we weren't pressed from any groups behind us so it wasn't as noticeable. Still had a good time. Usually it hangs right at about 4hrs on a Saturday or Sunday.

That ain't bad.

[Kai Slater]

Unlike 99% of WRX'ers, I don't hit my drives 338 yards with a high baby draw down the middle every time, so I gladly welcome playing from the whites, especially if I'm playing with a foursome on a moderately crowded course.

 

If the course is empty or it's very sparse and I'm playing as a single, then who cares?  I'll play from the "diamond" tees if I want to torture myself.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

I also think for the most part this is all much ado about nothing.  It's not that common to see some slow group with a full empty fairway in front of them.  It happens yes, but it's extremely rare and usually involves a complete beginning trying to learn the game on a course that is above their head.  but that usually doesn't happen because such courses are also more expensive.  It happens and its unfortunate when it happens, but say its rarely the reason for commonly slow PoP.

 

You can complain about the group in front of you because you're watching them and see they are playing slow and it frustrates you, but the truth is if they played any faster they would just bump into the group in front of them.  The real issue is not slow play it is courses booking too many flights per day.  they try to find the sweet spot of how many they can book, how close together, to match what they consider a reasonable pace of play, while also maximizing dollars per day.  The number the course comes up with for estimated round time is based completely on the density of booking they are doing there.  It's really misguided and elitist to blame higher handicapped golfers or expect them to pickup their ball, or stand back there attempting to put mental pressure on them, or even worse, hit into them..  

 

If you want to get shorter game times then go join an expensive golf club and pay for it.  Otherwise, stop whining about it and learn how to control your own mind to play slow.  there are economics at work and there is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it.  be nice out there, people are all just trying to enjoy the game.  There is rarely ever any reason why any player should ever feel obligated to pick up their ball for the sake of PoP.  Rarely.  yes if a group has a full gap in front of them, then they are a problem and need to start picking up.  Allowing people to play through causes other problems unless there truly is a full gap in front, but rarely there is. The other day a group let me play through, but then I just ran into the next group, who also let me play through, and run into another group and they didn't want to let me play through because there just more people in front of them, I don't blame them, and then I was stuck sandwhiched between two groups that really didn't have that much of a gap.  letting people play through is over rated most often.  In the case where there really is a gap, then of course let them play through.  but I say more often then not there is not enough of a gap to do that.  The courses are booking the course with dense bookings and there is nothing anyone can do about it so just relax and enjoy your slow round.

 

 

[dropkicked]

5 hours ago, AltC said:

That’s fine but what is pace of play on the course you play that day - I am a member at a golf course in the Philippines where the stated pace of play is 4:48 - admittedly it is a very tough hilly track (mandatory carts with caddies) - but often 5plus hour rounds due to “slow play” - I am a Scotsman - back home if you aren’t round in 3:40 walking and carrying- they will get you off the course - so pace of play is a very subjective term. I think playing forward would benefit pace of play in both instances- however in Asia Superman on his big day out reign supreme- but won’t let any faster groups through - no problem playing 5 hours in Scotland- so long as you let every group through who catches you 

My home course is 4 hours... It's made known to all that the expected POP is 4 hours or less...

My group has cleared in under 2.5 hours, without traffic.... we avg 3:45 due to traffic.

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

52 minutes ago, Kai Slater said:

Unlike 99% of WRX'ers, I don't hit my drives 338 yards with a high baby draw down the middle every time, so I gladly welcome playing from the whites, especially if I'm playing with a foursome on a moderately crowded course.

 

If the course is empty or it's very sparse and I'm playing as a single, then who cares?  I'll play from the "diamond" tees if I want to torture myself.

 

 

 

#1 Rule of the Internet Golf Community™ is to divide stated distances and club head speeds by a coefficient of exaggeration. 😄 😄

 

It helps to achieve a more realistic average rather than the single best of the round or series of rounds. 😄

[InTheWaterOn2]

20 Handicap and I have never played from the tips. 

[Chunkitgood]

Well, of course when I spoke of people who play from the back tees and shouldn’t, I wasn’t talking about members of this forum, who always the exception, always decent ball strikers, and alway do the right thing.

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Honestly, I just don't feel right playing from the tips when I'm on my own..... it's like hallowed ground! 😄

But I have to say, there are some courses where pace of play might be badly impacted by playing from the tips when not ready.

There's one nearby that has a few spots that become utterly ridiculous from the tips. A Par 5 at 650 Yards from the tips to finish the round, and another that hits DIRECTLY over the water which requires a good 220-240 yards to clear the water which is longer than many blokes drive the ball on a good shot. Plus, that hole has an elevated tee box for everybody else that would make someone feel like a real idiot if they drove it 200 yards to the fairway just down hill from those tees where a great drive isn't needed..... 😄

That tends to discourage anybody but people who are legit from playing those tees. So I don't think most average folk really do. I've only actually played with low cappers that played from the tips. Everybody else is AFRAID of them. 😄

So I'd not think it's a huge problem anyways.

 

I've never played the above course from the tips. If I got paired with someone who wanted to, I'd ask the starter for an adjustment... LOL

Edited August 15, 2023 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[knock it close]

6 hours ago, mshills said:

If you want to improve pace of play, ban alcohol on the course. That is the primary offender, not people playing the wrong tees. 
 

Good luck with enforcing either one. 

Played an emergency 9, quite full and with a bottle of wine from the dinning room in an 1:05 with two buddies on Saturday evening. They're slow with or without the booze, shrink the game.

[golfortennis]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:05 PM, CodyShootsHigh said:

20 Handicap and I have never played from the tips. 

 

So course A:  Tips-7,100, one ups, 6,600, two ups 6,200,   Course B: Tips 6,100, one ups 5,800....  you'll play course A's one or two ups, but not course B's tips because, reasons?

[Schulzmc]

14 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

So course A:  Tips-7,100, one ups, 6,600, two ups 6,200,   Course B: Tips 6,100, one ups 5,800....  you'll play course A's one or two ups, but not course B's tips because, reasons?

You left out an important bit if info. If both are par 72 I play two ups on A and tips on B. If B is par 69 I play one ups there…

[me05501]

The least disruptive change the Tours could make would be to adopt a local rule limiting the playing length for any club to an arbitrary maximum of say 44". 

 

This rule wouldn't require any changes in designing, manufacturing, measuring, etc. and no bifurcation would be necessary. All you'd need is a ruler on the first tee box to confirm compliance when necessary. And as an added bonus it would could easily be applied to long putters as well. 

 

Amateurs with an eye toward a pro career could easily adopt the rule if they want just like a college baseball player can choose to use a wooden bat if he prefers. 

 

Easy. Surprised it hasn't happened yet. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by me05501

[Warrior42111]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

The least disruptive change the Tours could make would be to adopt a local rule limiting the playing length for any club to an arbitrary maximum of say 44". 

 

This rule wouldn't require any changes in designing, manufacturing, measuring, etc. and no bifurcation would be necessary. All you'd need is a ruler on the first tee box to confirm compliance when necessary. And as an added bonus it would could easily be applied to long putters as well. 

 

Amateurs with an eye toward a pro career could easily adopt the rule if they want just like a college baseball player can choose to use a wooden bat if he prefers. 

 

Easy. Surprised it hasn't happened yet. 

Not a bad idea at all, but to play devil's advocate....👿

 

What about taller golfers, in hockey they have a stick length rule, and some tall players, Zdeno Chara a prime example, got an exemption. Not saying golf is the same, but I can see players trying to get one to get a 'normal' stance for them.

[golfortennis]

2 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

You left out an important bit if info. If both are par 72 I play two ups on A and tips on B. If B is par 69 I play one ups there…

 

You base your tees on par?  I can understand not wanting to play 225 yard par 3s, but beyond that, I don't get it.  But as they say in investing, that's what makes a market.

[mshills]

White tees until scratch makes no sense. 
 

I play golf differently now, but tee selection is the same process. I consider, in order of importance: Par 3 yardages, total yardage, location/conditions, and how I’m feeling that day.

 

A good drive for me is 235. Hitting drivers and 5w into Par 3 holes sucks!