Rule 10.2b(4) at The Open Championship

[Golferpaul]

Isn't this a violation?

 

[Golferpaul]

Rule 10.2b (4) ensures that aiming at the intended target is a challenge that the player must overcome alone. It states: “When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made, the player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to the player’s line of play behind the ball for any reason.

[Mr. Bean]

One frame of a video tells absolutely nothing.

 

Is that the player's caddie?

Did he stand there while player was taking his stance?

Did he move away and the player took his stance again?

 

I guess you should have posted the entire video if you wanted to have a serious answer.

[DavePelz4]

[caniac6]

He doesn’t look like he’s standing on his line. It looks like Rory’s back is towards his caddie.

[Golferpaul]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

One frame of a video tells absolutely nothing.

 

1. Is that the player's caddie?

2. Did he stand there while player was taking his stance?

3. Did he move away and the player took his stance again?

 

 

1.  Yes

2.  Yes

3. Yes, he moved away before the player made his stroke but the player did not take his stance again.   Taking his stance again would involve moving away from the ball and then moving back.  He didn't do that.  He just made a few practice swings and then hit the shot.

 

I saw the video but cannot find it now.  I thought maybe somebody else had a link.

I guess I should have posted the video if I expected to avoid your snarky reply.

[Golferpaul]

22 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

He doesn’t look like he’s standing on his line. It looks like Rory’s back is towards his caddie.

His line was to the hole and that's where he hit the shot.  So the caddie was directly behind (or maybe 1 -2 degrees to the side) the golfer.

[Golferpaul]

Found a video.   It clearly shows the golfer did not take his stance a second time after the caddie moved.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

40 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

1.  Yes

2.  Yes

3. Yes, he moved away before the player made his stroke but the player did not take his stance again.   Taking his stance again would involve moving away from the ball and then moving back.  He didn't do that.  He just made a few practice swings and then hit the shot.

 

I saw the video but cannot find it now.  I thought maybe somebody else had a link.

I guess I should have posted the video if I expected to avoid your snarky reply.

Or posted it instead of pretending you noticed it yourself. 

[Augster]

You can’t tell anything from that camera angle. Do they have a down the line angle? 
 

The angle is skewed because the camera is nearly 45 degrees to the line from Rory’s ball to the flag. You run into all sorts of errors when the camera is off-center. I’d bet the caddy is more in line with Rory’s butt than with any “line”. 
 

Also, the caddie walks away, then Rory stands up, moves his feet, moves his knee, then completely resets. I don’t see anything in the Rule that says he has to take “7 steps back away from the ball” or the like. There is only “But there is no penalty if the player backs away before making the stroke”. He clearly, to me at least, backs away” when he resets his feet. 
 

Furthermore, the second part of 10.2b4 may be what they were doing and not aligning at all. 
 

Help Other Than Aiming. If the caddie is helping the player with something specific other than aiming (such as checking to see if the player’s club will hit a nearby tree during the backswing), the caddie may stand in the restricted area but only if the caddie moves away before the stroke is made and provided this positioning is not part of a regular routine.
 

If the caddie isn’t aiming for him, the player doesn’t have to reset. 
 

IMO, much ado about nothing. 

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, Augster said:

You can’t tell anything from that camera angle.

 

This.

[tatertot]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Isn't this a violation?

 

Wow .. You're like a genius rules detective. Get on the phone ASAP.  There's a reward in your future.

[antip]

The most important response here is you are quoting the wrong rule. The 2023 version is significantly different and there is no reference to "any reason".

And the caddie may be there for reasons other than aiming - eg checking how close the swing will go to the obstacles - providing they move away before the stroke. 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Found a video.   It clearly shows the golfer did not take his stance a second time after the caddie moved.

 

 

 

Your first photo, contrary to @Augster's claim about camera angles, is certainly clear enough to show the caddie IS IN the "restricted area".

 

And you are correct. Rory certainly did NOT back away and re-take his stance after the caddie moved away - he could barely wriggle around to get in a position to hit the ball, never mind backing away.

 

 

That said, I don't think you read far enough into the Rule. The key here is what was the caddie doing ?

 

Help Other Than Aiming. If the caddie is helping the player with something specific other than aiming (such as checking to see if the player’s club will hit a nearby tree during the backswing), the caddie may stand in the restricted area but only if the caddie moves away before the stroke is made and provided this positioning is not part of a regular routine.

[antip]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Your first photo, contrary to @Augster's claim about camera angles, is certainly clear enough to show the caddie IS IN the "restricted area".

 

And you are correct. Rory certainly did NOT back away and re-take his stance after the caddie moved away - he could barely wriggle around to get in a position to hit the ball, never mind backing away.

 

 

That said, I don't think you read far enough into the Rule. The key here is what was the caddie doing ?

 

Help Other Than Aiming. If the caddie is helping the player with something specific other than aiming (such as checking to see if the player’s club will hit a nearby tree during the backswing), the caddie may stand in the restricted area but only if the caddie moves away before the stroke is made and provided this positioning is not part of a regular routine.

LOL, that last para is actually from a different rule book than the one quoted.

[sui generis]

When will folks learn that looking for a Rule on Google vs in the Rules app may lead to embarrassment? 

[nsxguy]

41 minutes ago, antip said:

LOL, that last para is actually from a different rule book than the one quoted.

 

 Last paragraph is the 2nd bullet point under the same rule quoted by the op.

 

10.2(b)4

 

35 minutes ago, sui generis said:

When will folks learn that looking for a Rule on Google vs in the Rules app may lead to embarrassment? 

 

Not sure I follow. That part of the Rule I cut and pasted right from the USGA 2023 Rules.

 

Did I somehow get to the wrong place/old rules ?

[Chunkitgood]

“Behind the ball?”

[antip]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 Last paragraph is the 2nd bullet point under the same rule quoted by the op.

 

10.2(b)4

 

 

Not sure I follow. That part of the Rule I cut and pasted right from the USGA 2023 Rules.

 

Did I somehow get to the wrong place/old rules ?

Your para is fine, from the current book, it is the original paragraph from the OP that is from the 2019 book and the rule has changed significantly. 

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

1.  Yes

2.  Yes

3. Yes, he moved away before the player made his stroke but the player did not take his stance again.   Taking his stance again would involve moving away from the ball and then moving back.  He didn't do that.  He just made a few practice swings and then hit the shot.

 

I saw the video but cannot find it now.  I thought maybe somebody else had a link.

I guess I should have posted the video if I expected to avoid your snarky reply.

 

There's is nothing snarky about my comment. As a referee I need to know all the facts available before making my desicion. Do you feel that the picture you posted gives all those facts? I sure do not and that is why I asked for more information.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

When will folks learn that looking for a Rule on Google vs in the Rules app may lead to embarrassment? 

 

Let me guess. Never..?

[Golferpaul]

14 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Or posted it instead of pretending you noticed it yourself. 

Kinda snarky for somebody who doesn't know the facts.  Or are you "pretending" to know the facts?

[Golferpaul]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

 

Also, the caddie walks away, then Rory stands up, moves his feet, moves his knee, then completely resets. I don’t see anything in the Rule that says he has to take “7 steps back away from the ball” or the like. There is only “But there is no penalty if the player backs away before making the stroke”. He clearly, to me at least, backs away” when he resets his feet. 
 

 

So, shuffling your feet is the same as backing away?  If he moves one shoe by one inch is that "backing away"?

 

To me, "backing away" means moving both feet away from the ball and reestablishing your stance.  Not just moving one shoe one inch.

[sui generis]

The Open Championship is being conducted in accordance with the 2023 Rules of Golf not the Google version from who knows when. 😉

[Hawkeye77]

38 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Kinda snarky for somebody who doesn't know the facts.  Or are you "pretending" to know the facts?

You can’t even get the rule right, got all Twitter-pated and ran here to post your big rules “outing” you found on social media and can’t comprehend why there is nothing to see there when it’s explained to you.  These “gotcha” rules bits almost always start out of ignorance and some personal agenda against the player or just to get attention. This is no exception. 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

So, shuffling your feet is the same as backing away?  If he moves one shoe by one inch is that "backing away"?

 

To me, "backing away" means moving both feet away from the ball and reestablishing your stance.  Not just moving one shoe one inch.

 

It seems to me that you have not learned anything of the lessons served. IMO the issue has been cleared quite well by some of the posters and this has NOT been a breach.

 

Try reading posts by antip and nsxguy for example. Those should shed light to your ignorance on this matter.

[Golferpaul]

16 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Your first photo, contrary to @Augster's claim about camera angles, is certainly clear enough to show the caddie IS IN the "restricted area".

 

And you are correct. Rory certainly did NOT back away and re-take his stance after the caddie moved away - he could barely wriggle around to get in a position to hit the ball, never mind backing away.

 

 

That said, I don't think you read far enough into the Rule. The key here is what was the caddie doing ?

 

Help Other Than Aiming. If the caddie is helping the player with something specific other than aiming (such as checking to see if the player’s club will hit a nearby tree during the backswing), the caddie may stand in the restricted area but only if the caddie moves away before the stroke is made and provided this positioning is not part of a regular routine.

Thank you for your helpful reply.  Some on this board just can't reply without calling people ignorant as if they are God himself.

 

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Thank you for your helpful reply.  Some on this board just can't reply without calling people ignorant as if they are God himself.

 

 

Tell me, you got the needed responses 18 hours ago and only now you are referring to them while you made two posts 6 hours ago obviously not having read them (or not having understood them...).

 

Why have you not read all of the posts before commenting? Why??

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

So, shuffling your feet is the same as backing away?  If he moves one shoe by one inch is that "backing away"?

 

To me, "backing away" means moving both feet away from the ball and reestablishing your stance.  Not just moving one shoe one inch.

In addition to the comments on camera angles and intent, you could usefully re-visit the (current) rule and remind yourself that it describes the restricted area  as being   "on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball" (my emphasis).  I'd say that the red lines on your screengrab are significantly wider apart than intended by the  the words of the rule.

[Colin L]

On the matter of angles, I recollect having to check out a caddy in a tournament  when word came to us that he was standing directly behind his player throughout the preliminaries and the stroke.    When I reached him, I tried to assess the likelihood of a breach from the side of the fairway. I just couldn't tell and moved further in  but in the end had to stand on the extension of the line of play in order to make a fair judgment.   There was no doubt that he was but there was no such certainty from wider angles.

 

It just isn't wise to make judgments from a video. 

 

Edit some hours after posting:

 I should add that this anecdote is of an incident that occurred pre-2023 when there was no need to enquire why the caddie was standing where he was. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Colin L