Issues/ Failures with 3M DP8410NS

[NerdyGolfer]

I started using DP8410NS over DP810 or DP420 based on a recommendation on here. I’m using it in an All-Fit iron adapter setup and I’ve never had so many failures of the epoxy. I say the epoxy is failing because the moment I use something else, the problems disappear. (I tried the DP8410NS multiple times before using something else)

 

what gives? This was supposed to be the cream of the crop in terms of epoxy. Easy to mix, no issues with adhesion, etc.

 

I’ve yet to have it fail on a built club…yet…but it can’t seem to hold the shaft or hosel side of an all fit adapter. Prep isn’t the issue (so don’t jump there), hosels have been sanded, tapped with additional threads and allowed to cure for multiple days before hitting and it doesn’t last longer than 3-5 swings before it comes flying off. Had the shaft side of the adapters slip today and I had enough..

 

Going back to DP810 or DP420 but I really want to know what’s going on. Epoxy isn’t expired, brand new and I go through them quickly. I’ve seen so many people say “very rarely is it the epoxy’s fault” but I just can’t see why that would be the case here.

[bvanlieu]

I built up some clubs with it, no issues except my PW did fail on course however that was the last club in a batch, and while I set a timer its probably I was pushing the working time of it a bit and also maybe I didn't use quite enough. 

 

That's on me, not the DP. Re-shafted with the DP and no issues since.  I pulled some clubs/tips with it and thought it was very good to work with. Used it on irons, bonded FWs and a few driver adapters all chugging along. 

 @Nessism may chime in as a fan of it, your experience sounds quite odd to me. 

[Nessism]

What are you using to clean the shaft and hosel with?  Acetone or MEK?  Are you using a mixing tip on the DP, and if not, are you making sure the hardener is flowing properly?  Because it's a 10:1 mix, you must make sure the green/blue hardener is dispensing out of the cartridge, and not recessed back into the tube when you pull the trigger on the gun.  Are you thoroughly mixing the DP, and applying to both the shaft and inside the hosel?  This adhesive kicks off fast, so you must work fast before the adhesive gets too stiff to bond and flow.

 

One possible red flag here is the adapter you are using.  Did you drill out the hosel for the adapter using the specified drill bit?  What's the fit like before bonding?  Why are you tapping the hosel, and what does that do to the fit?

Edited July 23, 2023 by Nessism

[AzRoger]

12 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

 

I’ve yet to have it fail on a built club…yet…but it can’t seem to hold the shaft or hosel side of an all fit adapter.

 

Since it works well with a regular club build there must be another issue that is causing the problem. Those adapters are made of titanium, DP8410 is supposed to work with most metals, maybe check with 3M if titanium is one of the metals it may not work properly with or if some unique prepping is required.

[Pnwpingi210]

I have not tried 8410, but have tried a few different adhesives.  The only two I haven’t had any failures with is 810 and 420. 

I use 810 on quick jobs and my tinkering/tester clubs.  420 is used for the permanent work installs.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Pnwpingi210

[NerdyGolfer]

1 hour ago, AzRoger said:

 

Since it works well with a regular club build there must be another issue that is causing the problem. Those adapters are made of titanium, DP8410 is supposed to work with most metals, maybe check with 3M if titanium is one of the metals it may not work properly with or if some unique prepping is required.

This is more of what I’m thinking it might be?
 

Because I put something together for a buddy and it ended up failing on both ends for him. The shaft end (graphite) and the hosel. He cleaned it up best he could and used JB weld to put it back together. The hosel stayed, but the shaft tip did not. 
 

Im thinking 420 is going to be the best for these as I believe the shear strength on it is higher? It’s just very odd that I’ve built close to 20 sets with DP8410 and “hopefully” haven’t had an issue.

[NerdyGolfer]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I have not tried 8410, but have tried a few different adhesives.  The only two I haven’t had any failures with is 810 and 420. 

I use 810 on quick jobs and my tinkering/tester clubs.  420 is used for the permanent work installs.

Same. I switch to the 8410 as it seemed less temperamental. But maybe back to that same setup for me.

[NerdyGolfer]

4 hours ago, Nessism said:

What are you using to clean the shaft and hosel with?  Acetone or MEK?  Are you using a mixing tip on the DP, and if not, are you making sure the hardener is flowing properly?  Because it's a 10:1 mix, you must make sure the green/blue hardener is dispensing out of the cartridge, and not recessed back into the tube when you pull the trigger on the gun.  Are you thoroughly mixing the DP, and applying to both the shaft and inside the hosel?  This adhesive kicks off fast, so you must work fast before the adhesive gets too stiff to bond and flow.

 

One possible red flag here is the adapter you are using.  Did you drill out the hosel for the adapter using the specified drill bit?  What's the fit like before bonding?  Why are you tapping the hosel, and what does that do to the fit?

From what you’ve said in the past it seems like 8410 isn’t as temperamental, but what you’re listing above says that it might be? If this helps, the color consistency was spot on to what I typically experience when using it. A nice light blue color. I always mix in a small Jell-O shot like cup and haven’t had an issue doing so yet. I make sure all of the hardener is mixed up and don’t use shafting beads (as this has it).

 

The prep on these hosels sucks. You basically use an 11.2mm drill bit which makes the hosel walls super smooth. So I went in and sanded the sides of the hosels and lightly sanded the adapter as well. I don’t use water to clean my shafts or hosels, mainly mechanical cleaning (brushes, sand paper, etc). The reason I tapped threads in the hosel was because of the failures, in my mind it had a little more bite to grab onto as I originally thought it was a prep issue…nope… 

 

main reason I say it’s the epoxy is I have a builder friend that’s using DP420 and he was questioning why mine keep failing as his havent.

 

I believe these are made of aluminum. Someone else said titanium, but that seems too expensive, so I imagine aluminum. The space between the hosel and adapter is pretty tight so that’s why I tapped threads as well, just give it some space. But at that drill diameter you don’t have much hosel space left. You also have to be extra careful that adhesive doesn’t work it’s way inside of the adapter and it’s impossible to get out and your shaft won’t seat inside of it

 

hope that provides the clarity that you need.

[NerdyGolfer]

2 hours ago, AzRoger said:

 

Since it works well with a regular club build there must be another issue that is causing the problem. Those adapters are made of titanium, DP8410 is supposed to work with most metals, maybe check with 3M if titanium is one of the metals it may not work properly with or if some unique prepping is required.

I stand corrected…they are made of titanium! I assumed aluminum because it’s made in China lol

 

Is there a better adhesive for this? I’ll check 8410 specs to see what the strength of titanium is (or if it’s even listed)

[NerdyGolfer]

7 hours ago, bvanlieu said:

I built up some clubs with it, no issues except my PW did fail on course however that was the last club in a batch, and while I set a timer its probably I was pushing the working time of it a bit and also maybe I didn't use quite enough. 

 

That's on me, not the DP. Re-shafted with the DP and no issues since.  I pulled some clubs/tips with it and thought it was very good to work with. Used it on irons, bonded FWs and a few driver adapters all chugging along. 

 @Nessism may chime in as a fan of it, your experience sounds quite odd to me. 

Yeah I’ve never had issues with it until this and it made me question my life choices haha. I think I’ve built over 20 sets with it no problem. But this has my head going WILD

[Guest RobS]

The surface chemistry of titanium is poor for bonding without treatment.  Titanium is very reactive with oxygen and you end up with a passive oxide layer if the surface isn't anodized, primed or chemically cleaned/treated.  I'd ask All Fit if the parts are anodized during manufacturing and what they recommend for prep if anything.  If they are anodized, your prep my be removing it and actually creating a poor surface condition for bonding.  I know that runs counter to most common sense club building but that's where I would look.  8410 should be fine for Ti as long as the surface is in the appropriate condition.  

[zip7111]

Pretty sure adapters are made of aluminum and NOT titanium.  A quick Google search shows vendors advertising aluminum, which would make sense as to why they are as cheap as they are.

 

[Nessism]

49 minutes ago, zip7111 said:

Pretty sure adapters are made of aluminum and NOT titanium.  A quick Google search shows vendors advertising aluminum, which would make sense as to why they are as cheap as they are.

 

[NerdyGolfer]

11 hours ago, RobS said:

The surface chemistry of titanium is poor for bonding without treatment.  Titanium is very reactive with oxygen and you end up with a passive oxide layer if the surface isn't anodized, primed or chemically cleaned/treated.  I'd ask All Fit if the parts are anodized during manufacturing and what they recommend for prep if anything.  If they are anodized, your prep my be removing it and actually creating a poor surface condition for bonding.  I know that runs counter to most common sense club building but that's where I would look.  8410 should be fine for Ti as long as the surface is in the appropriate condition.  

Thanks Rob, this is exactly what I was hoping to get back from this post. 

 

In your opinion, what would be your optimal way of created a “primed” or rough surface? Like an acid bath? Or something like that? Or is there an actual titanium primer I could potentially use?

 

All-Fit’s install instructions are about as lack luster as you could imagine. It’s basically, lightly sand the hosel and put epoxy on and bam you’re done…I’ll try to find it

[Guest RobS]

31 minutes ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Thanks Rob, this is exactly what I was hoping to get back from this post. 

 

In your opinion, what would be your optimal way of created a “primed” or rough surface? Like an acid bath? Or something like that? Or is there an actual titanium primer I could potentially use?

 

All-Fit’s install instructions are about as lack luster as you could imagine. It’s basically, lightly sand the hosel and put epoxy on and bam you’re done…I’ll try to find it

I'd go with an acid bath to remove any passive oxide layer and glue the parts up shortly after. 

 

If you're really ambitious you can phosphoric acid anodize the parts.

 

There are titanium primers designed for bonding prep.  I've mostly used a product from PPG called Pasa-Gel 107.  I bought it in large quantities (not for golf).  I don't know if they sell it in small quantities.  Loctite Hysol has a primer called AL 2000 and 3m has EW 5000.  The bad news is that they're all really expensive.  The good news is that you don't really need them if you are assembling the parts soon after prepping the surface.  

 

[NerdyGolfer]

21 minutes ago, RobS said:

I'd go with an acid bath to remove any passive oxide layer and glue the parts up shortly after. 

 

If you're really ambitious you can phosphoric acid anodize the parts.

 

There are titanium primers designed for bonding prep.  I've mostly used a product from PPG called Pasa-Gel 107.  I bought it in large quantities (not for golf).  I don't know if they sell it in small quantities.  Loctite Hysol has a primer called AL 2000 and 3m has EW 5000.  The bad news is that they're all really expensive.  The good news is that you don't really need them if you are assembling the parts soon after prepping the surface.  

 

This is amazing info, thank you! 
 

how long would you bathe them in acid and what type of acid would you use? Assuming no other add ins or dilution, correct? And I assume this won’t make them rust? I’m thinking of oxidation like normal iron and not sure how titanium reacts to oxidation

 

I probably won’t go the primer route as that seems tough, plus I’d imagine it add a little thickness to something I’m already seeing has a small window for epoxy

[Guest RobS]

8 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

This is amazing info, thank you! 
 

how long would you bathe them in acid and what type of acid would you use? Assuming no other add ins or dilution, correct? And I assume this won’t make them rust? I’m thinking of oxidation like normal iron and not sure how titanium reacts to oxidation

 

I probably won’t go the primer route as that seems tough, plus I’d imagine it add a little thickness to something I’m already seeing has a small window for epoxy

The common acid bath is 28% nitric acid and 5% hydrofluoric acid and water for 10 to 20 minutes.  HF is really dangerous I wouldn't suggest anyone use it at home.  

 

Alternatively, 70% isopropyl alcohol,  15% n-butyl alcohol, 5% ethyl alcohol, 5% zinc chromate, 5% phosphoric acid.  Phosphoric acid, while not at dangerous as HF, has risks.

 

I would look on line for a premade Titanium Pickling Solution that doesn't contain hydrofluoric acid, i.e. is safe to use at home.

 

The solutions won't cause rust on Ti and should create a blue/black oxidation appearance.  

 

[third-times-a-charm]

....man all-fit adapters sound like a huge PITA

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, third-times-a-charm said:

....man all-fit adapters sound like a huge PITA

 

I've had zero problems with them

 

[NerdyGolfer]

8 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I've had zero problems with them

 

Iron adapters or driver/ wood adapters? If iron adapters, would you mind sharing the epoxy you use? 
 

a builder buddy of mine in Germany uses DP420 and so far so good. 

[NerdyGolfer]

10 hours ago, RobS said:

The common acid bath is 28% nitric acid and 5% hydrofluoric acid and water for 10 to 20 minutes.  HF is really dangerous I wouldn't suggest anyone use it at home.  

 

Alternatively, 70% isopropyl alcohol,  15% n-butyl alcohol, 5% ethyl alcohol, 5% zinc chromate, 5% phosphoric acid.  Phosphoric acid, while not at dangerous as HF, has risks.

 

I would look on line for a premade Titanium Pickling Solution that doesn't contain hydrofluoric acid, i.e. is safe to use at home.

 

The solutions won't cause rust on Ti and should create a blue/black oxidation appearance.  

 

This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you again! Maybe the blue/ black color can be my signature 😉 haha

 

ill look for a pre-made pickling solution!

 

or….

 

I could whip out the old graduated cylinders, put on some bill nye and go to town 😂

[NerdyGolfer]

9 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

....man all-fit adapters sound like a huge PITA

I think it’ll be fine once I figure things out. It’s an awesome system but not without its woes lol

 

drilling 30 heads and prepping 60+ shafts is super fun 🙃

[NRJyzr]

38 minutes ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Iron adapters or driver/ wood adapters? If iron adapters, would you mind sharing the epoxy you use? 
 

a builder buddy of mine in Germany uses DP420 and so far so good. 

 

I've used Driver/wood adapters and hybrid adapters, but not iron adapters.

 

[NerdyGolfer]

2 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I've used Driver/wood adapters and hybrid adapters, but not iron adapters.

 

Yeah we are talking about the iron adapters. Was hoping you had the secret sauce!

[NRJyzr]

18 minutes ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Yeah we are talking about the iron adapters. Was hoping you had the secret sauce!

 

That's what I get for trying to read topics while in a meeting  LOL

 

[Yieeman]

I’ve been trying to use 8410ns for a couple of clubs but the epoxy never seems to fully harden for me. I use an epoxy mixing cup and a wooden mixing stick to mix it. Even putting the clubs (and the leftover epoxy in the mixing cup) in front of an 85°F heater for several hours, the epoxy never fully hardens. It just gets to be a really heavy/thick gummy consistency - even a day later in the cup. Is it a bad batch? Or, more likely, am I screwing up the mixing of it? (Sorry to threadjack.)

[Nessism]

5 minutes ago, Yieeman said:

I’ve been trying to use 8410ns for a couple of clubs but the epoxy never seems to fully harden for me. I use an epoxy mixing cup and a wooden mixing stick to mix it. Even putting the clubs (and the leftover epoxy in the mixing cup) in front of an 85°F heater for several hours, the epoxy never fully hardens. It just gets to be a really heavy/thick gummy consistency - even a day later in the cup. Is it a bad batch? Or, more likely, am I screwing up the mixing of it? (Sorry to threadjack.)

 

Since the mix is 10:1, you need to watch the material as it exits the plunger, and make sure both constituents come out at the same time.  Sometimes the blue hardner is delayed.  I'd try again, mixing on a flat board.  Make up a small batch and set it aside.  You will know pretty quickly if it's going to harden, since it happens in less than 20 minutes.

[Guest RobS]

3 minutes ago, Yieeman said:

I’ve been trying to use 8410ns for a couple of clubs but the epoxy never seems to fully harden for me. I use an epoxy mixing cup and a wooden mixing stick to mix it. Even putting the clubs (and the leftover epoxy in the mixing cup) in front of an 85°F heater for several hours, the epoxy never fully hardens. It just gets to be a really heavy/thick gummy consistency - even a day later in the cup. Is it a bad batch? Or, more likely, am I screwing up the mixing of it? (Sorry to threadjack.)

It must be a bad batch.  Acrylic adhesives aren't nearly as sensitive to mixing and part quantities as epoxies.  Not that I'd recommend it but you could literally mix a good batch for 3 seconds and it should be hard in 15-20 min at room temp.

[Phabs]

Should turn a forest green when cured.  If it stays blueish and gummy its not mixed right 

 

I had a nozzle get clogged and the adhesive never turned green for me, luckily I caught it and pulled the adapter apart for redo before I hit anything with it.  

Edited January 13, 2024 by Phabs

[Nessism]

BTW, I recently found two more 3M 10:1 plungers.  If anyone is in need, message me and one can be yours for the cost of shipping.

One proviso: you have to use your REAL NAME when communicating with me.  I can't believe how many people want something for free, and they act all anonymous and aloof in their communication.