Social Media Golf Is Wrong - Brian Manzella/BBG

[airjammer]

12 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

I did watch it.  I've listened to a lot of great discussions with Manzella.  This particular one is by far his worse.  Everyone has an off day, some more than others; perhaps this was his off day.

 

I don't need a Brinks truck... I'm happy to take all of Brian's money with him betting on his ridiculous assertion.  But we will have to go to real club champions, not random internet clubs.  And what does the "average impact position" even mean?  Is there a dumber thing to talk about?  So if one club champion is 5 inches behind the ball at impact and another is 2 inches ahead, then the "average" is what he's showing?  So what.

 

Even more ridiculous is using one guy as an example with apparently better swing mechanics than Rahm but he's an 18 cap because he swings too slow to hit driver.  Uh...ok.  

 

Maybe he can blame Brandon; of all the things Brian knows and what he can talk about, this video is the worse.  It's unfortunate as Brian doesn't do a lot of social compared to others; so it's a missed opportunity.

I don’t think Brian is wrong about the average club champion. Sure there are probably many club champions that were tour players or close to it but most rural club champions probably have there shaft closer to 0 degrees of shaft lean than closer to the tour average amount of shaft lean. I know that this would be true at the 3 clubs in my area. 
 

The only thing I thought was odd was his self own on his student that had Rahm wrist conditions that he been teaching since the beginning but it’s not right for him. So, you can’t get him to swing another way or what??

[Jeselnik]

Lean that is a by-product is desirable and a result of better mechanics, anybody can do it.  Next, learn how to post.  Then, how to be humble.

 

JNIK

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

Foley and David woods prosendr

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvA-bedLjML/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[airjammer]

 

[Jeselnik]

Follow up video posted.

 

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

 

This is really good. He’s absolutely right about how this move is being taught:

 

I would call what he’s describing “manufactured shaft lean” — decent for keeping the ball under a tree branch but extremely unpopular among the best players in the world in a normal swing. The hallmark of this move is that the trail hand stays under the lead hand too long post impact. 
 

Believe it or not some people desire this look and think it’s cool. They think it’s a “stable clubface”. You can still hit it very far right and left with this move it will just go shorter and lower. 
 

This is also very common with players who fall for the 2d illusion of trying to strike the ball on their lead side. If you are trying to speed up your arms in the forward dimension or are trying to get your left arm off your chest to band aid a bad backswing, you run the risk creating this situation in your swing.

Let’s look at John Rahm:

 

tons of lean at impact:

 

 

Then in the picture below, arms have swiveled, trail hand hides lead hand. Some time ago we were discussing actual swing universals and one that I brought up was “trail hand hides lead hand at p8”. This is what I would consider as close to a full swing universal among the best as there is the golf swing. 
 

 
 

Even the players who have more of a chicken wind hold on looking release have this relationship. 

Spieth:

 

 

 

Westwood:

 

 

 

[Brian Manzella]

To clarify:

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average club champions: 

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a little, 3°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average tour player:

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a decent amount, 10°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

My contention is that the average club champion is closer to 3° than 10°

 

It's a pretty safe bet.

 

(Unless the other side of the debate hand picks golfers)

Edited July 31, 2023 by Brian Manzella

[airjammer]

http://www.instagram.com/p/Cq7CamcNSbM/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

this is my favorite video of Rahm. You can see how much he releases after after the ball. That being said you can also see how late his left arm decelerates which allows him to release the club as late as possible. 

 

 

 

[airjammer]

21 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

To clarify:

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average club champions: 

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a little, 3°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average tour player:

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a decent amount, 10°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

My contention is that the average club champion is closer to 3° than 10°

 

It's a pretty safe bet.

 

(Unless the other side of the debate hand picks golfers)

Maybe you’ve said it and I have missed it but at what 7 iron speed would you say it’s safe to start thinking about adding more than 3 degrees of shaft lean?

[Rdailey9108]

1 hour ago, Brian Manzella said:

To clarify:

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average club champions: 

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a little, 3°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

•Average grip lean (the bottom of the shaft is in lead) at impact of average tour player:

 

I was attempting to demonstrate a decent amount, 10°-ish. The video shows slightly less than that due to the camera angle.

 

My contention is that the average club champion is closer to 3° than 10°

 

It's a pretty safe bet.

 

(Unless the other side of the debate hand picks golfers)

So I'm guessing it's safe to say that when I focused on this last week and shot my first ever 70s round with one missed fairway that this could have been a strong reason why it felt like I couldn't miss with my driver. I even drove one of the greens at 320 (4 putted). Might have to experiment at the range tomorrow. I never really focused on shaking hands with the target, or suppination but seems like every good player does it. 

[MPStrat]

10 hours ago, airjammer said:

http://www.instagram.com/p/Cq7CamcNSbM/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

this is my favorite video of Rahm. You can see how much he releases after after the ball. That being said you can also see how late his left arm decelerates which allows him to release the club as late as possible. 

So then the question becomes for those who might be wondering.. If a player wanted to and has enough clubhead speed, how do they achieve a release like Rahm?
 

Well aside from the easier things like his grip and what his hands and arms are doing, a large part of it is what his body is doing. His sequence, his body angles, tilts, turns etc. 

 

It’s easy to educate the hands and arms to do something. The harder part of it is to marry it with elite body movements in sequence.  
 

 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

So then the question becomes for those who might be wondering.. If a player wanted to and has enough clubhead speed, how do they achieve a release like Rahm?
 

Well aside from the easier things like his grip and what his hands and arms are doing, a large part of it is what his body is doing. His sequence, his body angles, tilts, turns etc. 

 

It’s easy to educate the hands and arms to do something. The harder part of it is to marry it with elite body movements in sequence.  
 

 

 

Most teaching on here puts the cart before the horse, wrong forces applied incorrectly at the wrong time. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

11 hours ago, Rdailey9108 said:

So I'm guessing it's safe to say that when I focused on this last week and shot my first ever 70s round with one missed fairway that this could have been a strong reason why it felt like I couldn't miss with my driver. I even drove one of the greens at 320 (4 putted). Might have to experiment at the range tomorrow. I never really focused on shaking hands with the target, or suppination but seems like every good player does it. 

Maybe you should go to the putting green. 

[MountainKing]

On 7/29/2023 at 8:51 PM, phizzy30 said:

There was the interview of the Scottie Scheffler range incident with Tiger as well where he said that when Tiger hits his irons the best, he doesn't take a divot.  Scottie then proceeds to say that he thinks Tiger was messing with him.  To counter your argument, why do all tour pros take divots with their irons? 

 

Just looking at Tigers face and body language it's easy to tell that Tiger was messing with him.  If you watch footage over the years, Tiger in his prime he would take some epic divots, and even took divots with his fairway woods.   There's plenty of old footage of him hitting on a range where you can see a nice solid divot pattern.   I don't think you need a deep divot, but not sure how you can strike an iron perfect without disrupting some of the turf.

[MK7Golf21]

2 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Just looking at Tigers face and body language it's easy to tell that Tiger was messing with him.  If you watch footage over the years, Tiger in his prime he would take some epic divots, and even took divots with his fairway woods.   There's plenty of old footage of him hitting on a range where you can see a nice solid divot pattern.   I don't think you need a deep divot, but not sure how you can strike an iron perfect without disrupting some of the turf.

 

He wasn't messing with him. This has been known about Tiger for years and years that he was able to just brush the grass on the range and flush the entire bucket. However, he gets on the course and takes bigger divots which was weird to me. 

[MPStrat]

12 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Just looking at Tigers face and body language it's easy to tell that Tiger was messing with him.  If you watch footage over the years, Tiger in his prime he would take some epic divots, and even took divots with his fairway woods.   There's plenty of old footage of him hitting on a range where you can see a nice solid divot pattern.   I don't think you need a deep divot, but not sure how you can strike an iron perfect without disrupting some of the turf.

 

Ya I think the big thing to take from it is that Tiger could take the biggest beaver pelt you’ve ever seen, take a nice reasonable divot or take none at all.
 

Posters will make a thread that they can’t take a divot in front of the ball no matter what they do, and the people respond that they are a picker like Tom Watson. That’s not helpful. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

36 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Most teaching on here puts the cart before the horse, wrong forces applied incorrectly at the wrong time. 

I have a new drill called Clam Hammer Force. It'll be out next week.

[MountainKing]

20 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

Ya I think the big thing to take from it is that Tiger could take the biggest beaver pelt you’ve ever seen, take a nice reasonable divot or take none at all.
 

Posters will make a thread that they can’t take a divot in front of the ball no matter what they do, and the people respond that they are a picker like Tom Watson. That’s not helpful. 

 

And Tom isn't a great example of anything other than making a bad position work for him.   He's one of the few guys that could hit something solid without much turf disruption.  If most of us tried to hit it like he did we'd just hit thin rockets (probably what a lot of those "pick like Watson" guys hit.

 

[Zitlow]

27 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I have a new drill called Clam Hammer Force. It'll be out next week.

 

Nobody likes a smartass. 

[MPStrat]

17 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

And Tom isn't a great example of anything other than making a bad position work for him.   He's one of the few guys that could hit something solid without much turf disruption.  If most of us tried to hit it like he did we'd just hit thin rockets (probably what a lot of those "pick like Watson" guys hit.

 

The position above is also how someone who lived before the era of social media golf instruction might look if they intuitively figured out how to hit a towering high 1 iron. 

[ferrispgm]

it makes logical sense.....Tour pros have a ton of speed which creates spin which creates the lift.....It makes sense that in order to avoid hitting it sky high that they would need to deloft the club more than someone who hits a 7 iron 150 yards. 

 

Regarding the Tiger divot thing....It makes sense that if he is swinging great, there wouldn't be much of a divot for a standard shot.  There are plenty of shots of him, especially after 2000 where he stripes it and there is no divot.  He was pretty steep early on, hence the massive divots from long/mid irons.  He is much more shallow now.

[Rdailey9108]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe you should go to the putting green. 

I actually usually am a decent putter. The pin placement was just diabolical and I think the pressure got to me. 

[jonsnow]

34 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Nobody likes a smartass. 

I do. Maybe because I am one.

[slytown]

On 7/29/2023 at 11:12 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I go on the Be Better Golf channel when I need a chuckle. 

 

A lot of guests on his channel are professionals with degrees. Are you saying his guests are dumber than dudes on TikTok that teach lag and shaft lean all the time? I'm not saying all social media teachers are bad, but to imply the average social media teacher is better than someone who works with amateurs day in and day out is ridiculous.

[Rdailey9108]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

A lot of guests on his channel are professionals with degrees. Are you saying his guests are dumber than dudes on TikTok that teach lag and shaft lean all the time? I'm not saying all social media teachers are bad, but to imply the average social media teacher is better than someone who works with amateurs day in and day out is ridiculous.

Lol BBG has had Milo, Dana D, Monte, Malaska, GG, and many others. I don't understand what he means by he watches it to chuckle. 

[MPStrat]

 

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

it makes logical sense.....Tour pros have a ton of speed which creates spin which creates the lift.....It makes sense that in order to avoid hitting it sky high that they would need to deloft the club more than someone who hits a 7 iron 150 yards. 

 

It depends too, bc someone who hits a weak glancing 150 yard 7i might have another 40 yards in them with a healthy peak height and less effort by lowering dynamic loft.

 

There is a reason golf club companies design their game improvement irons with extremely jacked lofts. Maybe if the player improves his golf swing they gain needed shaft lean and because they’re now using the tool as it was designed, they’re not hitting it all over the face and don’t need the jacked loft and shovel head. 

 

For those following along, I think it’s important to note that although there is the example of the 18 handicap who can’t get driver in the air, too much shaft lean is more of a better player problem. Don’t make the mistake of thinking shaft lean is inherently bad for amateurs or that you shouldn’t ever have to exaggerate things to improve your impact.

 

Like most things on here, this is an academic discussion and every situation is unique. This place gets really toxic when we start pontificating about “most golfers” — 18 handicaps with too much shaft lean are a great example of a minority group. 😂 

[ferrispgm]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

 

It depends too, bc someone who hits a weak glancing 150 yard 7i might have another 40 yards in them with a healthy peak height and less effort by lowering dynamic loft.

 

There is a reason golf club companies design their game improvement irons with extremely jacked lofts. Maybe if the player improves his golf swing they gain needed shaft lean and because they’re now using the tool as it was designed, they’re not hitting it all over the face and don’t need the jacked loft and shovel head. 

 

For those following along, I think it’s important to note that although there is the example of the 18 handicap who can’t get driver in the air, too much shaft lean is more of a better player problem. Don’t make the mistake of thinking shaft lean is inherently bad for amateurs or that you shouldn’t ever have to exaggerate things to improve your impact.

 

Like most things on here, this is an academic discussion and every situation is unique. This place gets really toxic when we start pontificating about “most golfers” — 18 handicaps with too much shaft lean are a great example of a minority group. 😂 

Agreed.  I've never seen an 18 with too much lean but I'm sure they exist.  

[CasualLie]

Like the "correction" of blame camera angle to explain it's actually trying to show 3* shaft lean vs 10*.  I still won't go with that as "average" for club champions.  I highly doubt club champions are winning these days without some lean.  Pretty sure the AMG guys already covered this a year ago with some specifics on a 7i.  High end of tour player range is 12*, slower speed players 6*, tour average is 8*.  It all makes perfect sense.  We know a lot of amateur golfers, even low single digits have a tendency to release the club too early and therefore are losing speed at impact.

 

I would put club champions (not the senior division) in the 3* - 7* range making the average closer to 5*.  But let's keep this in perspective; 6* is one second on the clock face.  These exaggerated looks that apparently are being taught all over social media are 20*.

 

Seriously, who is teaching this look:

 

 

A handful of social media instructors no one has heard of and have few followers???  At best (or worse) it's the equivalent of getting golf tips in the monthly mags pre-internet days, and thinking your game will be fixed.

 

Name one well-known, well-followed, and well-respected instructor teaching this move.  I follow quite a few instructors on IG and I haven't seen this look once.  

 

And this is what I don't understand: Why would you ever think you are ever establishing credibility when you waste so much time criticizing other social media instructors???  Even if it's a few online quacks with bad advice, why acknowledge their existence?  Why start your spiel with a drag on everyone else?  If your knowledge of the golf swing is so good, then just share that, and let the audience sort it out.

 

Oh wait!  Is this video another pot shot at Milo???  If that's what's going on here, then ok, I'll get my popcorn 😉

 

Don't get me wrong, Brian is super knowledgeable about the golf swing, a great instructor.  Recently I heard him talk about who would be on his Mt. Rushmore of golf instructors, good stuff.  And since it can be only four instructors, and it doesn't make sense to have anyone modern, then he had to list out more instructors as the "honorable mentions.". He was humble not to mention himself, but I'll do it for him - Brian belongs on the list of "honorable mentions."

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Seriously, who is teaching this look:

 

 

Name one well-known, well-followed, and well-respected instructor teaching this move.  I follow quite a few instructors on IG and I haven't seen this look once.  

I see it all the time. I was actually taught to do this in 2017 in person by someone in GG’s camp.

 

Heck the punisher stick drill encourages a release like this. Maybe that’s a good feel for someone who has never had shaft lean, but that’s not a golf swing and that’s not what the best players are doing in a full swing. They are leaning the shaft AND releasing the club. It’s a dynamic movement not a hold-on no-throw. 

 

For the record I’m a big GG fan. I don’t agree with everything he has taught over the years but I think he truly had some good information early on in 2016-2017 when there was nothing but garbage in golf instruction YouTube at that time. Not throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

. 

[Jeselnik]

https://www.golfwrx.com/301644/why-you-dont-need-more-lag-or-more-forward-shaft-lean/

Brian just entered the way back machine.  Anyways, are there really any doubts that tour winners have better mechanics?  Don’t make excuses, it’s all know how.  Since this thread is already a disaster have a look at this.

 

JNIK