US Ryder Cup team selections (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***)

[Dave230]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Captain's picks won 4 points....4

 

Morikawa stunk it up

 

Spieth stunk it up. He needs to never be another captain's pick.

 

Burns stunk it up.

Fowler stunk it up. He needs to never be a another captain's pick

 

Koepka was just OK but was also on the losing end of yesterday's beat down. 

 

JT actually played decently. His record is mostly due to spieth. Cannot say enough just how terrible spieth was in these matches.

 

No more boy's club. US needs more fire and emotion and less bro time.

Burns was actually America’s 3rd best player by strokes gained stats, he had a bad spell in the opening game of foursomes that got a lot of attention. But it’s very hard to play foursomes as your first match away from home so that’s on Zach.

 

Played well in the fourballs and then came up against an inspired Rory in singles.

 

Spieth was the real dud pick, despite his friend JT getting all the abuse before the event. He was nearly last in the Tour Championship and missed 4 cuts since May. I think Fowler was sick. Morikawa had a good record from last time but wasn’t playing as well this year as back then.

[notsohard]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:25 AM, MK7Golf21 said:

 

JT's dad was just reported to have saying it was BS on him taking a back seat and was reporters making a story. Said he just left from working with his son that morning and they had been working everyday. 

That didn't work. 

[ElephantTusk]

The drama over the US picks is still nuts to me. JT was the worst in the points and he was like 14th.

 

ZJ deserves plenty of criticism, but do you all really think that changing out two freaking players (i.e. picking top 12 in points) would really have made the difference?

 

Europe had the hottest player on the planet (Hovland), Rory, and Rham... and then 40 something Rose catches absolute fire with the putter.

 

Plenty to reflect on, but I don't see how subbing two players on the US team would have mattered at all in expectation.

[MK7Golf21]

1 minute ago, ElephantTusk said:

The drama over the US picks is still nuts to me. JT was the worst in the points and he was like 14th.

 

ZJ deserves plenty of criticism, but do you all really think that changing out two freaking players (i.e. picking top 12 in points) would really have made the difference?

 

Europe had the hottest player on the planet (Hovland), Rory, and Rham... and then 40 something Rose catches absolute fire with the putter.

 

Plenty to reflect on, but I don't see how subbing two players on the US team would have mattered at all in expectation.

It wouldn’t have, most the auto 6 was weak to me not to mention the 6 captain picks compared to the Euro team. I’ve voiced my opinion as such many weeks ago in this thread. 

[JD3]

2 hours ago, dono said:

Also need to flush the co-captain's. What exactly did DL3, Furyk & Freddie do? I expect more current PGAT players as co-captain's. Also, at least Keegan would have MJ as a co-captain.

Probably got paid for it 

[mosesgolf]

1 hour ago, ElephantTusk said:

The drama over the US picks is still nuts to me. JT was the worst in the points and he was like 14th.

 

ZJ deserves plenty of criticism, but do you all really think that changing out two freaking players (i.e. picking top 12 in points) would really have made the difference?

 

Europe had the hottest player on the planet (Hovland), Rory, and Rham... and then 40 something Rose catches absolute fire with the putter.

 

Plenty to reflect on, but I don't see how subbing two players on the US team would have mattered at all in expectation.

Yes.  2 things.  The Friday starting line up and Bryson, DJ, Glover, Keegan don't get waxed the way Fowler, Burns, JT played.  Zack played it safe.  Way way too safe picking 10, 11, 12.  Don't you think any of the 3 combos above score more than the underperforming wrong captain's picks?   Look at Luke's Captain's picks and how they performed!  Luke's Captain's picks over performed and Sergio et al were not missed.  And Europe didn't need Ian Poulter in any way anyhow.  🤣

[sergizmo]

2 hours ago, dono said:

Also need to flush the co-captain's. What exactly did DL3, Furyk & Freddie do? I expect more current PGAT players as co-captain's. Also, at least Keegan would have MJ as a co-captain.

There are 5(!) co-captains a side. Agree, what do they actually do? It takes 6 guys to figure out pairings? And then they all have ear-pieces in like secret service agents.

 

It should be the captain and 1 assistant captain per side. That's it.

 

10 automatic based on the last 12 months and 2 captains picks. 2 years is too long and 6 picks is way too many.

[ElephantTusk]

25 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

Yes.  2 things.  The Friday starting line up and Bryson, DJ, Glover, Keegan don't get waxed the way Fowler, Burns, JT played.  Zack played it safe.  Way way too safe picking 10, 11, 12.  Don't you think any of the 3 combos above score more than the underperforming wrong captain's picks?   Look at Luke's Captain's picks and how they performed!  Luke's Captain's picks over performed and Sergio et al were not missed.  And Europe didn't need Ian Poulter in any way anyhow.  🤣

Are you suggesting there is zero chance your preferred 4 pics don’t end up with the same or worst point totals?
 

JT was totally hung out to dry by spieth and still pulled out an important half on Saturday and win today.  
 

You’re delusional or pure partisan if you think it’s that simple. 

[NoTalentLefty]

All of the what ifs are unattainable. We deal with facts., the Europeans just outplayed the Americans. Great play by the champions. 

[Golferpaul]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:49 PM, golfheaven69 said:

Johnson screwed the pooch. 
 

Don’t blame the captains picks for playing badly. They were doing the same prior to being picked. 

He screwed the pooch when he refused to consider some very good golfers who don't play for the PGA.

[golfheaven69]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

He screwed the pooch when he refused to consider some very good golfers who don't play for the PGA.

What have those players accomplished on the course in the past year? 

[Dutch1008]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

He screwed the pooch when he refused to consider some very good golfers who don't play for the PGA.

The last time Bryson and DJ played an away Ryder Cup, they both pooped the bed. 

 

Bryson lost 5&4 in both foursomes matches. One paired with Phil and the other Tiger. He then lost in singles to Alex Noren. Finished 0-3-0. 

 

DJ won a Friday morning fourball w/ Rickie 4&2 then proceeded to lose his next four matches. Finished the week 1-4-0. DJ was the #1 ranked player in the world at the time. 

 

The US didn't lose because Bryson, DJ, Glover and Keegan weren't invited. They lost because three of their horses at the top (Scheffler, Xander, & Morikawa) were complete no-shows while Rory, Rahm, and Hovland took scalps. You don't win the Ryder Cup relying on the 10th - 12th guys on the roster. You think Luke Donald was expecting MacIntyre and Hojgaard to rack up points?   

[Golferpaul]

17 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

The last time Bryson and DJ played an away Ryder Cup, they both pooped the bed. 

 

Bryson lost 5&4 in both foursomes matches. One paired with Phil and the other Tiger. He then lost in singles to Alex Noren. Finished 0-3-0. 

 

DJ won a Friday morning fourball w/ Rickie 4&2 then proceeded to lose his next four matches. Finished the week 1-4-0. DJ was the #1 ranked player in the world at the time. 

 

The US didn't lose because Bryson, DJ, Glover and Keegan weren't invited. They lost because three of their horses at the top (Scheffler, Xander, & Morikawa) were complete no-shows while Rory, Rahm, and Hovland took scalps. You don't win the Ryder Cup relying on the 10th - 12th guys on the roster. You think Luke Donald was expecting MacIntyre and Hojgaard to rack up points?   

DJ in the most recent RC went 5 - 0 - 0.  It doesn't get any better than that.

 

Bryson, in the most recent RC went undefeated at 2 - 0 - 1

 

BTW, Tiger "pooped the bed" for two decades and kept playing the RC.   

 

A win or loss by your 10 - 12 players counts the same as if it were your # 1 - 3 players.

 

JT and Fowler went 1 - 4 - 1.  I'm certain some non-PGAT players would have done better.   Bradley would have also.

[Golferpaul]

20 hours ago, golfheaven69 said:

What have those players accomplished on the course in the past year? 

Bryson shot a 58 to win a tournament.

 

What has JT done?

[grm24]

24 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

DJ in the most recent RC went 5 - 0 - 0.  It doesn't get any better than that.

DJ also went 1-4 in Paris in 2018 when he was number 1 in the OWGR. BDC was 0-3. See how easy it is to try and make a point with completely selective irrelevant stats. What DJ, BDC or any other of the USA RC members did in 2021 would have zero impact for this year had they played. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by grm24

[Dutch1008]

5 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

JT and Fowler went 1 - 4 - 1.  I'm certain some non-PGAT players would have done better.   Bradley would have also.

 

What proof do you have? DJ was the #1 player in the freaking world in 2018 and was a no show in France. Whistling Straits was tailor made for the American strengths, it has zero bearing on what a player would have done at Marco Simone. 

 

I have absolutely no doubts that DJ or Bryson could have performed better than Spieth, JT, Burns or any other Captain's picks. But that is pure speculation and hindsight bias. The Euro's set the course up to pull wedges out of the American's hands, narrowed fairways and strategically grew rough to put a premium on driving accuracy. Bryson and DJ want to bomb it and wedge it. They are absolute predators when that strategy is rewarded. That was ideal at Whistling Straits not so much at Marco Simone. 

 

And yes, the horses need to do their job. Morikawa, Xander, and Scottie combined for 9 pts at Whistling. They combined for 3 pts in Rome. Add 6 pts to the US total and let me know who wins. Cantlay and Homa were the only US horses to carry their weight. Compare that to the Euros where Rory, Rahm, Hovland, Hatton, and Fleetwood absolutely raked. 

[golfheaven69]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

Bryson shot a 58 to win a tournament.

 

What has JT done?

Exhibition against weak field. JT should not have been on the team. Other players were playing much better. Plus the Greenbriar is known to be one of the easier courses in pro golf.

Edited October 4, 2023 by golfheaven69

[Golferpaul]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

What proof do you have? DJ was the #1 player in the freaking world in 2018 and was a no show in France. Whistling Straits was tailor made for the American strengths, it has zero bearing on what a player would have done at Marco Simone. 

 

I have absolutely no doubts that DJ or Bryson could have performed better than Spieth, JT, Burns or any other Captain's picks. But that is pure speculation and hindsight bias. The Euro's set the course up to pull wedges out of the American's hands, narrowed fairways and strategically grew rough to put a premium on driving accuracy. Bryson and DJ want to bomb it and wedge it. They are absolute predators when that strategy is rewarded. That was ideal at Whistling Straits not so much at Marco Simone. 

 

And yes, the horses need to do their job. Morikawa, Xander, and Scottie combined for 9 pts at Whistling. They combined for 3 pts in Rome. Add 6 pts to the US total and let me know who wins. Cantlay and Homa were the only US horses to carry their weight. Compare that to the Euros where Rory, Rahm, Hovland, Hatton, and Fleetwood absolutely raked. 

Just so you have your stats correct.  Homa is the only one above 50%.  Harman, Koepka, Cantlay and Clark were 50%.

 

	win pct
Brian Harman	50%
Brooks Koepka	50%
Colin Morikawa	25%
Jordan Spieth	25%
Justin Thomas	38%
Max Homa	70%
Patrick Cantlay	50%
Rickie Fowler	0%
Sam Burns	33%
Scottie Scheffler	13%
Wyndham Clark	50%
Xander Schauffele	25%

 

[Dutch1008]

7 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Just so you have your stats correct.  Homa is the only one above 50%.  Harman, Koepka, Cantlay and Clark were 50%.

 

	win pct
Brian Harman	50%
Brooks Koepka	50%
Colin Morikawa	25%
Jordan Spieth	25%
Justin Thomas	38%
Max Homa	70%
Patrick Cantlay	50%
Rickie Fowler	0%
Sam Burns	33%
Scottie Scheffler	13%
Wyndham Clark	50%
Xander Schauffele	25%

 

That doesn't tell the full story. Cantlay played well, Xander dragged him down. Take a look at the below...

 

https://datagolf.com/ryder-cup/strokes-gained

 

Click "Event Total" and sort by Strokes Gained Total. Cantlay played the best golf on the US Team. JT and Morikawa couldn't buy a putt. Spieth and Clark were awful tee to green. 

 

This isn't perfect data because foursomes and fourball can muddy the stats. When Jordan puts JT into the deep rough, and JT cannot advance the ball, JT's strokes gained approach takes an undeserving hit. If your partner in fourball gets in a bad position, you may be forced to play overly conservative or overly aggressive. All of which can muddy the data but it still provides some insight. The data may not be perfect but I recorded the whole event and watched everything and that data mostly lines up with the eye test. 

 

Cantlay and Homa played well. Burns was good w/ the putter and off the tee, struggled elsewhere. The rest of the US team played below average golf. Scottie is the #1 player in the world, Xander #6, Morikawa is a 2x major champion, extremely accurate off the tee, and one of the best iron players ever. None of them played to their ability.    

[Golferpaul]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:32 PM, Dutch1008 said:

That doesn't tell the full story. Cantlay played well, Xander dragged him down. Take a look at the below...

 

https://datagolf.com/ryder-cup/strokes-gained

 

Click "Event Total" and sort by Strokes Gained Total. Cantlay played the best golf on the US Team. JT and Morikawa couldn't buy a putt. Spieth and Clark were awful tee to green. 

 

This isn't perfect data because foursomes and fourball can muddy the stats. When Jordan puts JT into the deep rough, and JT cannot advance the ball, JT's strokes gained approach takes an undeserving hit. If your partner in fourball gets in a bad position, you may be forced to play overly conservative or overly aggressive. All of which can muddy the data but it still provides some insight. The data may not be perfect but I recorded the whole event and watched everything and that data mostly lines up with the eye test. 

 

Cantlay and Homa played well. Burns was good w/ the putter and off the tee, struggled elsewhere. The rest of the US team played below average golf. Scottie is the #1 player in the world, Xander #6, Morikawa is a 2x major champion, extremely accurate off the tee, and one of the best iron players ever. None of them played to their ability.    

SG is certainly not a better gauge than just their percent won for a variety of reasons including the one you outlined.  For example, SG doesn't tell you anything about making a shot that really counts like Cantlay on #18 Saturday.

 

And your focus on Spieth is rather severe.  I saw JT miss a number of short putts and bad shots, so I don't think he played any better than Spieth.  JT was last in SG:putting.

[Dutch1008]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:21 AM, Golferpaul said:

And your focus on Spieth is rather severe.  I saw JT miss a number of short putts and bad shots, so I don't think he played any better than Spieth.  JT was last in SG:putting.

I literally said, JT couldn't buy a putt. And  I didn't mean to single out Jordan. He certainly wasn't the only one who played below his skill set. Jordan did actually have a good event on the greens. He just couldn't keep his driver on the planet.  

[Louis_Posture]

For the next Ryder Cup (s) the following changes should be made:

 

1) each Team roster is the Top 12 Points earners (no more Captains picks please)

2)each Team has one Captain and one Assistant Captain (one assistant is more than enough)