Can a 65-year old get to scratch?

[Moonlightgrm]

On 10/9/2023 at 2:13 PM, Obee said:

 

I would love to see your short game action. One of the reasons I have been able to compete and stay scratch/below for so long, even though I'm dreadfully short off the tee, is that I have a varied and creative short game. Lot of guys I see that are solid ball strikers, but who struggle to get and stay below scratch have very "one-dimensional" short games, if that makes sense ....

I headed up to the club with the intent of working on my short game for about an hour and a half. I no sooner arrived when a friend pulls up in the parking lot and coaxes me into playing a quick nine holes. The day after a holiday (Columbus Day) is usually quiet at our club. We each grab our own electric cart and headed to the first tee. A few swings with the orange whip and we tee it up. I won’t bore you with many of the shot by shot details but I birdied #1 (35-feet), #2 (5-feet), and #3 (45-feet). There was a twosome on the 4th tee, We got the okay to jump ahead to the fifth tee. I hated skipping this hole after my birdie, birdie, birdie start, but so be it. A routine par on #5 brings us to our long uphill, par 3 sixth hole. It’s 225 from the tips. We were playing it at 202 yards to a back pin according to my Bushnell. I hit my 4-wood and it was too much club. I was about 15-yards down the slope over the back of the green. I hit a respectable pitch to 8 feet, but missed the putt. Bogey! Back on track with a birdie on #7 (1-foot). It’s a short (490 yards), uphill par 5. I hit my pitch close enough for the kick-in. My fifth birdie on hole #8 was due to a nice 7-iron approach shot to about 15 feet. Hole #9, a longish par 4 (430 yards) presented a problem when my drive to the right side of the fairway required a cut 4-iron to the pin tucked on the right side of the green. The canopy of a large maple tree causes the problem. I over cooked my cut shot and landed in the right front bunker. An acceptable bunker shot left me an uphill 10-footer which found its way into the cup. I decided that I would play the tenth hole so that I would at least have a 9-hole score. My buddy bailed. A good drive on the short par 4 left me 92-yards to the pin. My gap wedge to about 15-feet left me an uphill, right to left putt. I made the putt for my sixth birdie in 9-holes! One bogey, two pars, and six birdies has put a smile on my face that will be tough to wipe away. 
 

Apologies for the shameful brag, but it’s so nice to see some results with all of the work I have put into my putting game and short game these past two months. I finally started making some putts! And to think, I was only going to practice this morning. 
 

[Zitlow]

Yes, definitely possible.

 

Several years ago I played several rounds with Ben Smith who was in his late to mid sixties at Lake Windcrest in Magnolia TX. He was initially a Monday qualifier when the Senior Tour was just getting started. He kept his card for 14 years and retired after he had a heart attack. 

 

He wasn't super long but he kept the ball in play off the tee, hit a lot of greens, was a very good putter and got it up and down when he missed a green. I played 18-20 rounds with him, the highest I ever saw him shoot was 71 or 72. 

[Moonlightgrm]

The season is winding down in my neck of the woods and when the next revision is posted, I believe my index will be 1.8, if my math is correct. How did I cut my index in half? Here is what worked for me: I focused on two aspects of my golf swing this year. #1 Feel the clubhead at the top of the backswing. I didn’t get bogged down on how I took the club back. I just made sure that I got the club back far enough to feel the clubhead. This is something I had not been aware of until I watched a video of my swing in May. I realized that as I have aged, my backswing shortened just enough so I could no longer feel the clubhead at the top of my backswing. I’m no golf coach, but for me, feeling the clubhead at the top has proven to be important! #2 That May video also revealed that I had very little shoulder tilt through impact. Another byproduct of age is a loss of flexibility. I went back to an old Ken Venturi lesson some 40-years ago which is, if you’ve worked the right shoulder properly during the downswing, the result will be proper shoulder tilt as is evidenced by your head resting on an imaginary pillow as you follow through. Daily stretching with the thought on every full swing resulting in my head resting on that pillow has been beneficial. These two swing thoughts were gold for me this year. My ball striking is as good as it ever was. Maybe this will help others. It certainly has worked for me. 
 

In order to shave off the final strokes in reaching my goal of scratch, I must improve my putting. My stroke is acceptable and repeatable, but I will be spending the winter doing multiple putting drills. Although I rarely three-putt, I leave too many birdies on the table. I am beginning to think my true weakness is in green reading. A LAB session done two years ago resulted in some very good numbers when putting 10-footers on a putting carpet with numerous cameras and the LAB gathering the data. It was nice to get some confirmation regarding my stroke but I am not getting the results I desire on the golf course. If the stroke isn’t the problem, then it’s green reading, confidence, or a combination of things. I went from a blade putter to a small mallet putter earlier this month. I like the look and the feel of this new putter (Odyssey Versa Three T). Time will tell.

[mizunotpz]

Stay fit, have good mechanics and practise a lot. To be able to practise a lot you need to have a body thats ready for it. But Im not sure a certain score number or hcp is the only way to measure success. Ask any plus hcp, they got there cause of hard work, hours after hours. If youre a 10 hcp at 68, its not realistic to reach scratch in two years. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by mizunotpz
Add

[Yuck]

Play some Sr USGA Qualifiers or State Sr AM events in FL or CA and you will run into many legit scratch / plus index folks.  If you were plus as a youngster, and have stayed relatively ailment free, it is definitely possible.   Interestingly, a lot of the good SR. AM  players are not extremely long.  I am low 160’s ball speed on a good day, and I probably hit it past 90% of the guys 60+.  We typically play yardages in the 6600 -6800 range at sea level, so they don’t need to be very long to take my lunch.   I have seen a 65 year old retire with an 18 handicap and get down to a 5 or 6 index by the time he was 70.  He could break par from the front tees, but that was  probably a course rating of 68 or so.   Any of the true scratch old guys were typically good sticks when they were younger.

 

 

Those folks telling you to move up a tee.  If Scratch is your goal, try to stick with courses rated 72+, Slope 135 + and play in USGA and State level Comps.  I even did our State AM Qualifer at age 63 from about 7400 yards.  I failed to qualify, but I broke 80 and beat the two college kids I was paired with.   Kids these days can really bomb it.  It was an eye opener.  I no longer attempt events with the youngsters.  (Except Club Championship)

Edited February 4, 2024 by Yuck

[ChaosTheory]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:48 AM, MelloYello said:

Anyhow, for me and the guys I know the back tees are actually a key part in lowering your index. Playing the forward tees will almost always raise a player's index. 

Exactly.

[UkiwiS]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:12 AM, indianagolf2 said:

Yes.  .played with guy age 59 last month he's a plus 2

I turned 60 a few months ago and I'm +2. You need a good shortgame and you need to putt well. I hit it around 270 off the tee and can get up and down 75% of the time. Today I shot 66 (-4) with no bogeys (2nd time ever bogey free) and hit 14 greens.

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, UkiwiS said:

can get up and down 75% of the time

Damn! The leading scramble rate on tour this year was Xander at 70%. And they count balls just barely off the green as a missed GIR.

Edited September 3, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[Obee]

47 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Damn! The leading scramble rate on tour this year was Xander at 70%. And they count balls just barely off the green as a missed GIR.

everyone defines "scrambling" a bit differently. 

[GungHoGolf]

8 hours ago, Obee said:

everyone defines "scrambling" a bit differently. 

Right. Which means pro scrambling stats are probably inflated a bit, compared to many ams who count balls on the fringe as a GIR. Making his 75% even more remarkable.

Edited September 3, 2024 by GungHoGolf
most > many

[aggiegolfer21]

Based on your index to get to scratch you need to pick up 2 shots in your best 8 rounds of the last 20 only.  The putting stat is telling, but why are you taking so many putts during the round is the question.  Either you are missing more putts than you should or you are leaving yourself too far away from the hole consistently.  I would get some kind of strokes gained app (Taylormade had an easy to use one at one point, not sure if they still do) to see if it really is your putting or if it's something else.  If you don't three putt much I would guess it's something else.  Be sure to track your short-side percentage on your approach shots.  If you are on the short side of the pin more than 25% of the time, you may need to be more conservative which will lead to more birdies and fewer bogeys.

Edited September 3, 2024 by aggiegolfer21

[Obee]

9 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Right. Which means pro scrambling stats are probably inflated a bit, compared to many ams who count balls on the fringe as a GIR. Making his 75% even more remarkable.

If I'm not mistaken, the tour scrambling stat includes ANY hole where you miss the green in reg. So if you hit one into a hazard off the tee, then that's a "scrambling" opportunity. Have your second shot on a par four hit a tree from a tough lie and bounce back to your feet leaving your the same 175 yards you started with? Scrambling opportunity. It definitely used to be that way.

If you define "scrambling opp" as "within ~20 - 30 yards of the green and getting up and down in two," then that's very different than the tour stat, and much easier to attain a high percentage of up and downs (especially at most clubs or munis with low to moderate rough and receptive greens).

[Obee]

15 hours ago, UkiwiS said:

I turned 60 a few months ago and I'm +2. You need a good shortgame and you need to putt well. I hit it around 270 off the tee and can get up and down 75% of the time. Today I shot 66 (-4) with no bogeys (2nd time ever bogey free) and hit 14 greens.

Where you from? You a tournament player?

[Pleasedwith3putts]

We've got a scratch member who is 71 and just got beat on the last in the semi-finals of the English Amateur

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

If I'm not mistaken, the tour scrambling stat includes ANY hole where you miss the green in reg. So if you hit one into a hazard off the tee, then that's a "scrambling" opportunity. Have your second shot on a par four hit a tree from a tough lie and bounce back to your feet leaving your the same 175 yards you started with? Scrambling opportunity. It definitely used to be that way.

If you define "scrambling opp" as "within ~20 - 30 yards of the green and getting up and down in two," then that's very different than the tour stat, and much easier to attain a high percentage of up and downs (especially at most clubs or munis with low to moderate rough and receptive greens).

You’re correct on the PGA Tour definition of Scrambling - scoring a par on any missed GIR. Although I don’t think they miss by very far often enough to skew the percentage. Xander missed a GIR 410 times in 2024.

 

Personally, I’ve averaged 60% my last several rounds, but if I’m putting from just off the green, I count it as a GIR. We have fairly small greens.

 

Here are leaders of all the categories of Up and Downs for 2024. 30 yards and in starts at 69% and goes up to 90% under 10 yards (lots of putts from the fringe from less than 30 ft there).

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[Obee]

1 hour ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

We've got a scratch member who is 71 and just got beat on the last in the semi-finals of the English Amateur

No way. The English Amateur Amateur? Not the senior?

[Obee]

17 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

You’re correct on the PGA Tour definition of Scrambling - scoring a par on any missed GIR. Although I don’t think they miss by very far often enough to skew the percentage. Xander missed a GIR 410 times in 2024.

 

Personally, I’ve averaged 60% my last several rounds, but if I’m putting from just off the green, I count it as a GIR. We have fairly small greens.

 

Here are leaders of all the categories of Up and Downs for 2024. 30 yards and in starts at 69% and goes up to 90% under 10 yards (lots of putts from the fringe from less than 30 ft there).

 

 

 

I'd love to see cumulative numbers from inside 30 and inside 20.

[GungHoGolf]

17 minutes ago, Obee said:

I'd love to see cumulative numbers from inside 30 and inside 20.

Easy to do from the stats since they show the total attempts from each distance.

 

FWIW, 304 of Xander’s 410 missed GIRs were under 30 yards. And he was 77% on “Scrambling from other locations” (anywhere except green side rough, bunkers, or fringe - so fairways or closely-mown surrounds) over 168 attempts.

Edited September 3, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[Forged4ever]

Yes....

 

Cheers🍻

RP

[UkiwiS]

11 hours ago, Obee said:

Where you from? You a tournament player?

La Quinta,CA. I am not a tournament player.

[UkiwiS]

On 9/2/2024 at 7:47 PM, GungHoGolf said:

Damn! The leading scramble rate on tour this year was Xander at 70%. And they count balls just barely off the green as a missed GIR.

Oops.....I did pull that stat out of thin air but let's look at my last few rounds.
I only count a GIR when on the putting surface.
 

66 (-4) GIR=14, Scrambling 4/4.
72(+2) GIR=13, Scrambling 3/5
71(+1) GIR=13, Scrambling 3/5

69(-1) GIR=11, Scrambling 5/7
74(+2) GIR=14, Scrambling 2/4

70(PAR) GIR=10, scrambling 5/8

22/33. So 66%...looks like I exaggerated a bit....sorry about that!

[UkiwiS]

6 minutes ago, UkiwiS said:

Oops.....I did pull that stat out of thin air but let's look at my last few rounds.
I only count a GIR when on the putting surface.
 

66 (-4) GIR=14, Scrambling 4/4.
72(+2) GIR=13, Scrambling 3/5
71(+1) GIR=13, Scrambling 3/5

69(-1) GIR=11, Scrambling 5/7
74(+2) GIR=14, Scrambling 2/4

70(PAR) GIR=10, scrambling 5/8

22/33. So 66%...looks like I exaggerated a bit....sorry about that!

Might actually be closer to 50% if you look at scoring stats in 2024. GIR = 57% and Up and Downs = 3.8

[Obee]

8 hours ago, UkiwiS said:

La Quinta,CA. I am not a tournament player.

To play at your level at your age, you virtually had to be at some point. Former pro? Former college player?

[Obee]

7 hours ago, UkiwiS said:

Might actually be closer to 50% if you look at scoring stats in 2024. GIR = 57% and Up and Downs = 3.8

I love a person who is brings the receipts! 🙂

[UkiwiS]

4 minutes ago, Obee said:

To play at your level at your age, you virtually had to be at some point. Former pro? Former college player?

None of that, I started playing when I was 12 or 13. My low handicap index was 3.1 when I was around 18.  Since then I've had multiple periods of not playing for years, mainly due to my job or just hating the game...haha. I got to scratch last year for the first time. In the summer I play 4X in the weekend (36 holes both days) and hit the range once every week or so. I'm better today than I ever was despite not hitting it as far and I put it down mainly to hitting it closer and my putting. My head is in a better space too and I no longer lose it if I get under par. I've blown up many good rounds but I'm less likely to do it today than a few years ago.

[Obee]

3 minutes ago, UkiwiS said:

None of that, I started playing when I was 12 or 13. My low handicap index was 3.1 when I was around 18.  Since then I've had multiple periods of not playing for years, mainly due to my job or just hating the game...haha. I got to scratch last year for the first time. In the summer I play 4X in the weekend (36 holes both days) and hit the range once every week or so. I'm better today than I ever was despite not hitting it as far and I put it down mainly to hitting it closer and my putting. My head is in a better space too and I no longer lose it if I get under par. I've blown up many good rounds but I'm less likely to do it today than a few years ago.

Good for you. We should tee it sometime! And 36 holes in the summer? In La Quinta? Whoah.

[Pleasedwith3putts]

18 hours ago, Obee said:

No way. The English Amateur Amateur? Not the senior?

Sorry - meant the senior amateur but he was still 6 years older than all but one of the competitors

[Obee]

1 minute ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

Sorry - meant the senior amateur but he was still 6 years older than all but one of the competitors

Gotcha. Yeah, Paul Simson (I mentioned him earlier or in another thread) is that way here in the States. 73 years old and shot the lowest score in the first round of stroke-play qualifying this year and made match play ... again.

He did lose first round this year, but is a 2-time champion (and one-time runner-up) and previously had NEVER LOST in the first round of match play in 14 previous USGA Senior Ams. Just crazy good.

[UkiwiS]

8 hours ago, Obee said:

Good for you. We should tee it sometime! And 36 holes in the summer? In La Quinta? Whoah.

Balls in the air @730. 36 holes done by Noon @The Palms!

 

[Obee]

7 hours ago, UkiwiS said:

Balls in the air @730. 36 holes done by Noon @The Palms!

 

Nice! I have a bunch of buddies in the desert. Always a treat to go out there to the nice courses. 🙂