So, Europe’s analytical guy gets to set up the Ryder Cup golf course?

[ilikegolf26]

Europe has Eduardo Molinari, a stats savant who several Tour players consult, as an assistant captain. 
 

US has Fred Couples for like the 10th time in a row as an assistant captain…..

 

 

I think we can see why this has gone the way it has. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by ilikegolf26

[Retrop1]

This isn't really a new thing. Americans do it too. Set the course to suit their team the best. What I cannot understand in this era of analytics, why the captains picks are not used on someone that matches more the opposition's player strengths. Seems with 6 captain's picks, one could find players that has a skill set closer to how the opposition will set up the course. And furthermore, use the players that best suit that criteria in the foursomes. Seems pretty obvious and would most likely at least make it more interesting with fewer blowouts. 

[merv]

16 hours ago, mark m said:

I haven’t followed the threads closely, but has this been commented upon? (And congrats to the Euro team as it has worked well.) 

 

From the app, which I assume is not off by much day to day:

 

Front side = 3300

Back side = 3265

Total = 6565 yards! (I am sorry, but it’s actually funny.)

 

Maybe the US should dump Bethpage and go to Tree Tops par 3?

 

The course was 6600 metres but 7200 yards!

[mark m]

50 minutes ago, merv said:

 

The course was 6600 metres but 7200 yards!

As I mentioned, I used the yardages from the app. Maybe it is incorrect?

 

edit: Thanks for pointing this out. I believe the yardages listed in the photo should actually be meters. Because when you open the hole by hole section it gives a different number for  yardage. And the front is about 3600 when I calculated it. Again, thanks. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by mark m
New calculation

[Snoris]

Back in the years before "cookie cutter" stadiums with artificial turf dominated Major League Baseball, the most valuable player on most teams was the head groundskeeper.

 

Going up against a visiting team with speedsters on the basepaths?  Soak the basepaths and then put dry dirt over them so it doesn't look so obvious.  If you're the home team and have the speedsters, keep the basepaths dry.  But soak the area in front of home plate if your team has good bunters, because it's harder for the catcher to get firm footing to jump out of his crouch, quickly pick up the ball and pivot in the soft dirt fast enough to throw out the batter at first.

 

Everybody in a golf tournament has to play the same course.  In the Ryder Cup, the goal is to 1) decide on a course with a general layout that the majority of your players can adapt to, 2) see where the landscape, landing areas and green locations play to certain players' strengths, and 3) limit the areas of play that expose your players' weaknesses.

 

It's not simple, but it's been done that way at the Ryder Cup for at least 30 years.

 

[Chunkitgood]

Apparently the course can be set up to improve the home team’s chances, perhaps significantly.

 

Apparently there is an agreement against doing it.

 

Apparently it is done anyway.

 

I do not approve, if the above is all true.  First, it is dishonorable.  Second, it makes  for less honest (obviously) and also less interesting competition.  I return to extreme case of a fixed fight.  Just not interesting.

 

The function of the Ryder Cup may well not be competition so much as making money for the organizers and exposure (and endorsement dollars) for the players.

 

This is just, like so many other things going on and revealed in pro golf recently, something that makes me less interested in the whole thing.

[glm]

what does it matter how the course was set up?

most of Europe's TEAM plays on the PGA tour and are in  there private jets flying back to the USA where they live with there american wife and kids and may not play another course in Europe until The Open next year. 

I assume everyone got the same amount of practice time on the same course

just my 2 cents worth 😀

 

 

 

[iBanesto]

14 hours ago, ilikegolf26 said:

Europe has Eduardo Molinari, a stats savant who several Tour players consult, as an assistant captain. 
 

US has Fred Couples for like the 10th time in a row as an assistant captain…..

 

 

I think we can see why this has gone the way it has. 

 

Fitzpatrick and Hovland are "clients" of Edoardo Molinari.

 

They both have improved immensely over the last few years.

 

Edoardo was a solid player who reached the OWGR top 20 and made a Ryder Cup team. I believe his form wavered when he had a wrist injury and had to change his swing. He is still a solid player on the European Tour.

 

[argee1977]

You have 12 players on each side, playing the exact same course, i don't see that much difference in whatever you did to the course, shortening it doesn't exactly favour the Europeans, it's not as if you have anyone in either team who isn't long enough off the tee these days, or who doesn't have an exceptional short game, and both teams know each other well, most play in the US.

 

As for short courses, as stated, this was 7200 yards (6600 metres), i thought the short holes were way more interesting, the pinnacle hole was the 16th, just over 300 yards, and look at the carnage that caused in matches.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:01 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

Been going on forever - folks think it’s fun when we do it. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ryder-cup-2021-home-captains-course-set-up-overlooked-influence-on-matches/amp

Thanks for the link, I've sent it on to a couple of friends.

[3whacker]

Im still trying to figure out  what analytics ZJ was using when he got Jordan to pull 3W, where was Greller and disappointed Jordan didnt have the stones to stand up to  ZJ

[me05501]

I knew the home team was in charge of course setup, but I didn't know until this year that they also have some influence in setting the schedule. Starting off with alternate shot was Luke's choice and a good one. The USA was uncomfortable from the start and never got the advantage. 

[CasualLie]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:32 PM, MattM97 said:

 

Johnson or the opposing captain agrees to the tee boxes and setup. He mentioned this on the Sub-Par podcast a few weeks back.

 

Yes home team gets the advantage but it's not completely unfair.

 

Exactly... It's really not that much of an advantage.  These guys are supposed to be the best in the world, so hit some fairways, take a 3W, make a putt.  Historically, the US sucks as alternate shot.  So it's like giving strokes right off the bat every Ryder Cup.  

 

Now why does the US suck at alternate shot???  One would think by now this would be figured out, but nope, here we are.

[MattM97]

2 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Exactly... It's really not that much of an advantage.  These guys are supposed to be the best in the world, so hit some fairways, take a 3W, make a putt.  Historically, the US sucks as alternate shot.  So it's like giving strokes right off the bat every Ryder Cup.  

 

Now why does the US suck at alternate shot???  One would think by now this would be figured out, but nope, here we are.

 

Also like any other event they see the course before hand, it's not completely blind. Like they realize they cannot take driver off a certain hole or forced to go with a longer club or whatever they build a game plan and just have to make it happen. 

 

As for alternate shot I just think it's the differences in play styles, like I saw more people saying Bryson should have been on the team but Bryson's play is so unique that it's hard to pair him with someone. It's also like when 2 guys play completely different balls and they struggle on flight, control, etc. 

[Soloman1]

I guess it’s time to make an “Official” golf course and replicate them throughout the world. Like Dunkin’ Donuts.

 

Same yardage, same design, same grass cut the same length, same bleachers, same food and beer, same pin placements, same weather because they’re all enclosed in a giant bubble.

[Pleasedwith3putts]

I thought the set up was great for a Ryder Cup. Rough that rewarded straight hitting and three driveable par 4's for risk / reward. 

[ozarkgolfer]

Two takeaways

 

1. The US team took a lot of time off from competitive golf between the FedeX Cup playoffs and the Ryder Cup - the Euros kept at it.

 

2. Money and access seems to be a huge concern for Schaufele and Cantlay, rather than teeing up the damn ball and playing. Based on McGinley's words on TGC, 20% of the revenue that the Americans derive goes directly into the PGA Pension scheme that benefits all Tour Pros and $200k is donated to the player's choice of charity. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by ozarkgolfer
sp

[golfheaven69]

Blaming what happened on course setup is an excuse for losers. The best group of players won. 

[avrag]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:55 AM, mark m said:

I haven’t followed the threads closely, but has this been commented upon? (And congrats to the Euro team as it has worked well.) 

 

From the app, which I assume is not off by much day to day:

 

Front side = 3300

Back side = 3265

Total = 6565 yards! (I am sorry, but it’s actually funny.)

 

Maybe the US should dump Bethpage and go to Tree Tops par 3?

Given the fact that the maximum length of Marco Simone is 6700 METERS, there might be an error in the units you used.

[mark m]

1 minute ago, avrag said:

Given the fact that the maximum length of Marco Simone is 6700 METERS, there might be an error in the units you used.

Yes. I mentioned it above. The official Ryder Cup app had it listed as yards, when it should have been meters. 

[J_Tizzle]

I always think of the King of the Hill episode where Hank is taking care of the football field and grows the grass longer on the sidelines because the up coming team has a running back that works along the sidelines, lol.

[J_Tizzle]

1 hour ago, golfheaven69 said:

Blaming what happened on course setup is an excuse for losers. The best group of players won. 

 

Well the announcers said multiple times that the Euro side tried to take wedges out of the US players hands as much as possible with the way that the course was set up and force them into mid-irons...  So...

[mark m]

A trip down memory lane:

 

2014 in Scotland:

Friday foursomes won by EU 3 1/2 - 1/2.

They go on to win 16.5 to 11.5

 

2016 Hazeltine:

Friday morning foursomes won by US 4-0

They go on to win 17-11

 

2018 Paris:

Friday foursomes win by EU 4-0

They go on to win 17.5 to 10.5

 

2021 Whistling Straits:

Friday morning foursomes won by US 3-1

They go on to win 19-9

 

2023 Rome:

Friday morning foursomes won by EU 4-0

They go on to win 16.5 to 11.5

 

IMO they primarily set it up for McIlroy as they wanted to maximize his tee ball and get him going. He was off at Whistling Straits. They even sat him for the day 2 afternoon Fourball. He went 1-3-0 and cried. This time Rory played great  and Cantlay stopped him from being 5-0 (he went 4-1). This time Scheffler went 0-2-2 and cried.

 

There shouldn’t be any crying in golf.

 

[st1800e]

4 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Well the announcers said multiple times that the Euro side tried to take wedges out of the US players hands as much as possible with the way that the course was set up and force them into mid-irons...  So...

Yes, because the US players are better at the wedge game than the euros and the euros are better from 150-200yards.  Or so I heard on the radio…😁

[Dutch1008]

Yes, the Euro's use data to tweak the course in their favor...

 

 

So does the US. It's part of the gamesmanship at this point and has been for some time. I think it provides an interesting wrinkle. The more questions a captain has to wrestle with, the better...

 

How is the opposition going to set the course?

Who should my Capt picks be to offset that advantage?

How can I partner players to offset that advantage?

Are there different ways to attack the course that minimize those advantages?

 

I think those questions make it far more interesting and turn the competition into a bit of a chess match, no different than an offensive and defensive coordinator trying to find ways to beat each other.   

 

[Louis_Posture]

22 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

 

 

I do not approve, if the above is all true.  First, it is dishonorable.  Second, it makes  for less honest (obviously) and also less interesting competition.  I return to extreme case of a fixed fight.  Just not interesting.

 

 

What is "dishonorable" about choosing and setting up a a perceived home course advantage?

Like any other sport competition, the Ryder Cup provides both home and away games.

[Louis_Posture]

13 hours ago, 3whacker said:

Im still trying to figure out  what analytics ZJ was using when he got Jordan to pull 3W, where was Greller and disappointed Jordan didnt have the stones to stand up to  ZJ

ZJ observed  that long left (driver) was a tough up and down and he gave Speith that information. Presumably front left (3-wood) was an easier birdie or possibly eagle.

[Tasals]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:23 PM, Chunkitgood said:

It just strikes me as wrong for team in a competition to set up the course to favor itself.  Mostly the home team advantage doesn’t extend to setting the physical characteristics of the playing area, say raising the basket if your center is really tall or lose it if he is short.

 

Sure some odd sets up the course, but to explicitly say you’re using analytics to set up the course favor your team seems pretty cheesy to me.  If it works (a big if I admit) it harms the competition of course in that few visitors will ever win.  Who wants to watch a fixed fight?

 

Maybe the powers hat be have decided to split the difference while pretending to compete passionately.

If you watch football, better not look at the Miami Dolphins, or the Chicago Bears stadium set ups. Dolphins probably have one of the most significant advantages in all of the NFL with their sidelines being in the shade and on average 20 degrees cooler than the opposing sideline.

[OrangeGravy]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:29 PM, Chunkitgood said:

What does my experience have to do with it?

 

Per Hawkeye, this is just the way it’s done now, since at least 2008, when Azinger did it apparently as an innovation.  Apparently it works.  It was wrong then and now, IMO.

 

I am no expert but I don’t think MLB leans move their fences back and forth for different visiting teams.  Do they really mow grass differently for different visiting teams?

 

 

You used to see it in baseball at all levels when bunting and small ball was a thing.  If a fast team came to town that liked bunt and had a lot of infield hits,  they'd cut the grass long or short depending on what they're trying to stop. The fences don't move once the season starts. In the MLB and nfl, everything is fairly uniform from game to game at a particular stadium 

[Chunkitgood]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:22 PM, Louis_Posture said:

What is "dishonorable" about choosing and setting up a a perceived home course advantage?

Like any other sport competition, the Ryder Cup provides both home and away games.

What is dishonorable is breaking an agreement (which my comment assumed to exist).  Under any circumstances.  Even if everyone does it.

 

In baseball, if as noted above, they wet the baselines, they at least had the decency to over it up with dry dirt.

 

Actually, it’s dishonorable now I think of it to rig a game in your favor…period.

 

Some people who know golf much better than I think this is a problem.

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/724700/major-champ-suggests-collaboration-on-course-set-up-after-yet-another-home-ryder-cup-beatdown/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Featured_Latest&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused