From Project X LZ 5.5 to Mitsubishi MMT 105 Stiff, significant increase in Swing Weight🤔🤔🤔

[JS Golf]

Recently, I switched my iron shafts from Project X LZ 5.5 (supposedly 115g) to Mitsubishi MMT 105 Stiff (supposedly 105g) and my swing weight increased significantly.  After I switched the shaft, my irons felt much heavier so I decided to do some comparisons in weight.   Although overall weights of the clubs decreased slightly, swing weights in Muira have increased  2 or 3 scales if not more.

 

Below are the weights of each club along with manual SwingW swing weights (PLEASE NOTE THAT I COULD NOT GET SWINGW WEIGHT SCALE TO WORK CORRECTLY WITH EXACT SWING WEIGHT BUT SHOULD GIVE YOU ANY IDEA HOW MUCH THE SWING WEIGHTS HAVE INCREASED IN GENERAL.  SWINGW SCALE SEEMS TO SHOW ABOUT 2 SCALES HIGHER THE  ACTUAL BASED ON MY ESTIMATION) 

PLEASE FOCUS GRAMS WITH SWINGW SCALE. 

 

This is comparison between my Vega VC-01 which has Project X LZ 5.5 and my Muira CB-302 which has Mitsubishi MMT 105 Stiff. 

The head weight between Vega VC-01 and Muira CB-302 are very similar. Muira heads weight 1 or 2 grams more from pics below. 

 

Below are the results.

 

Muira Cb 302 with MMT
Raw Weight       SwingW 
#4  412g             640g
#5  416g             642g
#6  427g             644g
#7  436g             646g
#8  442g             644g
#9  448g             645g
PW 462g             649g

 

Vega VC-01 PX LZ 5.5
Raw Weight       SwingW
#4.   416g.          621g.       
#5.   426g.          623g.       
#6.   432g.          625g.       
#7.   440g.          625g.       
#8.   443g.          627g.       
#9.   453g.          627g.       
PW.  461g.           637g.    

 

In SwingW chart, 5 grams is about 1 swing weight.  Based on information above, Muira irons are about 4 swing weights higher/heavier which really doesn't make sense considering it has  lighter shaft. 

 

I am really not sure why there is such a big increase in swing weight between the 2 clubs. Where did that big increase in Swing Weight come from on Miura with MMT 105? 

 

Any Idea? 

 

Maybe I should have gotten MMT 95 in stiff.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by JS Golf

[noodle3872]

Miura irons are generally on the heavy side. MMT shafts are tip heavy compared to most other graphite shafts. 
 

Aside from these 2 points, I don’t understand what all your numbers mean. When talking swing weight I’m use to the old letter number (eg: D3) system. 

[Streuner]

We had a similar discussion before. 
one WRX member mentioned it has also to do with the shorter raw lengths of the MMT. 
the PX LZ 5.5 is 115 at raw length but you are cutting the length (if taper tip) constantly about more than 2 inches or so. This brings the LZ to a standard playing weight of 105-108gr 

but the MMT are 1 inch shorter, so less material to cut off. Resulting in less weight difference to the playing length. 
 

I will weight my uncut set of MMT 95 for you in the evening…. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Streuner

[Streuner]

Ok, more information….

 

my set of 7 shafts is a bit like ascending weight UNCUT 

PW and i9 shaft are 95 gr 

i8 and i7 are 93

i6 is 92

i5 and i4 are 91 

 

after cutting 1.5“ of the i5 shaft to standard length the shaft is 89gr

if I balance out the shaft in the playing length in relation to the Dynamic Gold 105 that was assembled before I have a significant different balance point 

 

the balance point of both shafts is matched, both shafts are same length, the scale is metrical

Edited October 10, 2023 by Streuner

[JS Golf]

10 hours ago, Streuner said:

We had a similar discussion before. 
one WRX member mentioned it has also to do with the shorter raw lengths of the MMT. 
the PX LZ 5.5 is 115 at raw length but you are cutting the length (if taper tip) constantly about more than 2 inches or so. This brings the LZ to a standard playing weight of 105-108gr 

but the MMT are 1 inch shorter, so less material to cut off. Resulting in less weight difference to the playing length. 
 

I will weight my uncut set of MMT 95 for you in the evening…. 

Yes, we did talk about that but that was based on overall weight of the shaft and of you at overall weight of the tclubs, Muira with MMT is slightly lighter.  Just that the swing has increased 2+.  

 

Below is a chart provided by SwingW and based on the chart, at 640g to 646g excluding PW which is more heavier, swing weight comes in at D7 or D8 which I know for a fact it's not true. It can't be that heavy.  I am think it's more like D3 or D4. 

 

In terms of Vega with LZ 5.5, at 621g to 627g D3 or D4 which I also know it's not true. I think maybe D1 or D2. 

 

Despite the scale chart being wrong, if you were look at the chart, 5 grams difference is about 1 swing weight so with 20 grams difference in Swing Weight between Muira and Vega, that's like 4 scales difference with Muira swing weight being much heavier which doesn't make sense.  

 

That's what I am trying to figure out.  Why such a big difference in swing weight between the clubs which has similar weight heads and shaft. 

[JS Golf]

4 hours ago, Streuner said:

Ok, more information….

 

my set of 7 shafts is a bit like ascending weight UNCUT 

PW and i9 shaft are 95 gr 

i8 and i7 are 93

i6 is 92

i5 and i4 are 91 

 

after cutting 1.5“ of the i5 shaft to standard length the shaft is 89gr

if I balance out the shaft in the playing length in relation to the Dynamic Gold 105 that was assembled before I have a significant different balance point 

 

the balance point of both shafts is matched, both shafts are same length, the scale is metrical

How big is the balance point difference? Thanks

[Streuner]

As you can see on the picture, the difference is 30millimeter so around 1.2 inch 

for me this is a good point to start from, because I always have the problem that I like the SW higher but ususal I have to add weight

 

especially if I would like to have midsize MCC +4 grips that are around 66-68 gr 

 

 

[JS Golf]

Looks like Mitsubishi MMT Shaft does give heavy head weight feel.  Found this below in one of the reviews of MMT 105S Shaft. 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by JS Golf

[Streuner]

First 3 irons are read for the first impression on the range. At the garage I did need some time to get used into the lower weight, I had to find the right tempo. 
standard build without extra head weight and standard steel length and super heavy 68gr MCC +4 midsize grips I have a SW of D2 

[Streuner]

@JS Golf what is your impression with the shafts right now? 
 

my full set is completely reshafted and I had the first day at the range. My 95s shafts are definitely stiffer then the AMT S300. It was cold today, this did not help at all with feeling. But I can say, the perfect hit does not feel as good as it does with the AMT but the bad hit does not feel as bad… 

I was hoping for more WOW effect, but ok it was cold today, after a month of temperatures way over the normal middle for the season. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Streuner

[phizzy30]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:28 PM, noodle3872 said:

Miura irons are generally on the heavy side. MMT shafts are tip heavy compared to most other graphite shafts. 
 

Aside from these 2 points, I don’t understand what all your numbers mean. When talking swing weight I’m use to the old letter number (eg: D3) system. 

You beat me to it.  Miura heads are known to be extremely heavy.  MMT are very tip heavy as well which is nice in that not a lot of or no tip weight/tungsten powder needs to be added to the heads of most iron heads.  I have the MMT 125TX and they came out perfectly to D3 without any additional weight needed to be added to the heads I'm currently gaming playing 1/4 inch short. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by phizzy30

[JS Golf]

1 hour ago, Streuner said:

@JS Golf what is your impression with the shafts right now? 
 

my full set is completely reshafted and I had the first day at the range. My 95s shafts are definitely stiffer then the AMT S300. It was cold today, this did not help at all with feeling. But I can say, the perfect hit does not feel as good as it does with the AMT but the bad hit does not feel as bad… 

I was hoping for more WOW effect, but ok it was cold today, after a month of temperatures way over the normal middle for the season. 

I am still getting use to the heavy swing weight but over all, I like it.  I had to slow down on my take away and let the club drop.  By doing this, definitely getting a better impact.  As I play with it more and more, I am getting getting more sensitive at impact.  I think if I was to do it again, I might have gone with MMT 95 like you.  Wonder how it compares to TSPX Dart V.  I am thinking of trying/ getting the TSPX Dart V on my Vega but don't know it I want to drop another $500+ as I recently installed Black LZ 5.5 on my Vega's and they look great 😂😂😂.  Plays great too as is.  

Edited October 15, 2023 by JS Golf

[JS Golf]

OK, here is a little update.  I decided to try UST TSPX Dart V so I ordered a set.  I changed out the shaft today on my #6 from MMT to Dart V.   The swing weight has gone down for sure.  It's similar to LZ 5.5. With SwingW scale, #6 came out at 629g  compared vs 644g so its definitely lighter swing weight.  Close to my Vega with LZ 5.5 which is at 625g under SwingW scale. 

 

Will go to the range tomorrow and try it out.  

 

Another thing is that, since playing Muira with MMT, my forearm is getting sore after a range session.  Overall, MMT is a very good shaft. Very stable and firm but I just don't like the increase in swing weight.   

 

 

[Sparty4202]

 

There is a website Golf Shaft Reviews/ Devoted Golfer (Russ Ryden) who gives very detailed EI shaft profile information and reviews. Russ does an excellent job of giving details of varies shafts for comparison.
To get the detail there is an annual subscription of $12 or a more advanced subscription that is used mostly by fitters. 
According to his charts the the balance point of the Project X 5.5 +0.2” where the balance point of the MMT is -0.7”. This would explain some of the increase in SW when comparing the two shafts.

Also the the 6 iron shaft weights are: Project X 5.5 118.7gr vs the MMT 105s at 110.9gr. So when matching iron/shafts combinations the Project X should be have an overall higher weight than the MMT but the MMT will have a higher SW due to the lower balance point. 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Sparty4202

[JS Golf]

6 hours ago, Sparty4202 said:

 

There is a website Golf Shaft Reviews/ Devoted Golfer (Russ Ryden) who gives very detailed EI shaft profile information and reviews. Russ does an excellent job of giving details of varies shafts for comparison.
To get the detail there is an annual subscription of $12 or a more advanced subscription that is used mostly by fitters. 
According to his charts the the balance point of the Project X 5.5 +0.2” where the balance point of the MMT is -0.7”. This would explain some of the increase in SW when comparing the two shafts.

Also the the 6 iron shaft weights are: Project X 5.5 118.7gr vs the MMT 105s at 110.9gr. So when matching iron/shafts combinations the Project X should be have an overall higher weight than the MMT but the MMT will have a higher SW due to the lower balance point. 

 

Yes, thats what It seems like.  MMT is very tip heavy shaft. May have something to do with mesh metal at tip area of the shaft for stability. 

 

 

 

I think people who are looking to purchase MMT shaft need to understand that it will increase swing weight of the club by 2+ up if not, possibly even up to 4

 

You can certainly offset that getting heavier grips or additional weight at butt end of the grip. 

[Valtiel]

11 hours ago, JS Golf said:

Yes, thats what It seems like.  MMT is very tip heavy shaft. May have something to do with mesh metal at tip area of the shaft for stability. 

 

I think people who are looking to purchase MMT shaft need to understand that it will increase swing weight of the club by 2+ up if not, possibly even up to 4

I don't want to disparage SwingW and whatever their methodology is because I am not familiar with it beyond what I can glean from their website, but there are a number of concerning conclusions being drawn here that seem to overcomplicate what is actually happening, especially the quote "In SwingW chart, 5 grams is about 1 swing weight". This is one of those very broad generalizations that is problematic because there are a couple variables that render it incorrect, namely balance point. It seems like their "2 scale" method is meant to account for this, so unless you're using that there is missing potentially data. 

@Sparty4202 touched on the important variables here, mostly the fact that the MMT shafts swingweight heavier due to lower balance point which is intentional to make them feel more like steel shafts. The +0.2" and -0.7" numbers there respectively will cause about a 1 swingweight point measured difference on a SW scale (balance point and SW are roughly 1:1 in terms of inches/points). If this SwingW app/method is attempting to extrapolate it's own "swingweight" number via other means then i'd be concerned about what you're seeing, because under NO circumstances should two identical clubs, one with a Project X LZ 5.5 or similar and one with an MMT 105s, measure anything close to 4 points higher. That would require either extra playing length or other variables such as grip or head weight differences. Also the comment about using heavier grips/butt weights to reduce swingweight is also considered to be incorrect for purposes of lightening a club. 

Across the board there is simply what feels like a very wobbly and over-complicated foundation for all these measurements that are leading to inaccurate results, or at best inaccurate interpretations, so let's dig into that:
 

Quote

In SwingW chart, 5 grams is about 1 swing weight.  Based on information above, Muira irons are about 4 swing weights higher/heavier which really doesn't make sense considering it has  lighter shaft. 

 

I am really not sure why there is such a big increase in swing weight between the 2 clubs. Where did that big increase in Swing Weight come from on Miura with MMT 105? 

If your understanding of "big increase in swingweight" is coming from this 600g+ measurement via this "Smart Swing Weight System" then i'd ask whether you're using the 1 Scale or 2 Scale method, and whether or not the grips are the same between these two clubs. I'd also ask if you're following the SwingW instructions correctly because that 600g+ number looks like the weight of the club + the weight of the Smart Swingweight System measuring arm, and that suggests you're not doing "Step 5" correctly which is to set up the arm and then zero out the scale(s). Therefore you're getting a number that isn't relevant to how the system is intended to be used upon which you're applying a potentially inaccurate 5:1 shortcut and deriving an otherwise impossible 2-4 swingweight point increase all to explain why the clubs felt heavier to you. 

If you can provide more detail on the above that would be great. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Valtiel

[JS Golf]

I appreciate you trying to help.  I am using method 1 with grip on.  I also did zero out the scale after put the level on which is around 9g to 10g.  In other words, when I put the SwingW scale on, it's 0, when I lift the scale it's - 9g.

 

In terms of grips yes, there are some variance, 3 or 4 grams max which can affect the swing weight but I don't think it should increase 3+ swing weight.

 

Tbh, I tried everything including reading the instructions over and over again not to mention getting new scale.  It's still off.  Even though the scale maybe off, I can use the scale to see what the swing weight variance is between the clubs are at least.