USGA and R&A Announce golf ball rollback for everyone!?!?!

[hammergolf]

On 6/19/2025 at 1:13 PM, hollabachgt said:

It was the manufactures and the tour who refused to compromise. The USGA's initial proposal was to not touch the ball that the 99.99% of golfers play with and to bifurcate by creating a ball only for elite level play. Wally Uihlein, Jay Monahan, et al... were the ones who would not accept bifurcation. 

 

That’s partially true, but only half the story. The OEM’s (not the professional tours or Wally) asked the usga to bifurcate the driver and make it “a condition of competition” and they absolutely refused and said that bifurcation will never be an option. The PGA Tour and Wally thought they had the power to make the usga buckle, they were wrong. I actually called the usga when this was being discussed and asked to speak with David Fey to discuss this, and to my shock, he picked up the line and spoke with me. I asked him why wouldn’t they use the condition of competition like they were doing with wedges at that time. He stated that it was only going to be a temporary solution until all manufacturers made the changes and that bifurcation was not an option. I asked why when there was already precedence for professional and elite amateur competition were already using different equipment than the majority of golfers. He simply stated that bifurcation was not the direction they were interested in. I asked him what were the usga willing to punish 99% of golfers because of what professional and elite amateurs were able to do in the game. His reply was simply “bifurcation is not the direction we have any interest in pursuing” It was at that moment I realized the usga had ZERO interest in the majority of golfers who play this game. They are only interested in control and power.

Edited June 20 by hammergolf

[hammergolf]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:01 PM, Shilgy said:

Here’s my issue with your post.  You’re quoting USGA ideas as if they’re gospel.

 

Rory was not the first to average over 320.  Hank Kuehne did it in 2003!  Since then the distance leader has bounced back and forth a bit and so far this year it appears the Rory number was an outlier.

 

Second…yes the average pro distance average has gone up. Substantially.  That happens when you lose players like Furyk and add a Åberg. Repeatedly.

 

Funny how it becomes the equipments fault though.  Seems like the suits would be happier if players just went to the bar after their round, like in the good old days, rather than going to the gym and training.

Facts! Not to mention since events don’t grow thick rough anymore, it’s created drive and gouge so guys are hitting driver WAYYYY more than they did 10 years ago. It’s just flat out stupid for the usga to punish the 99.99% of golfers that don’t hit Driver wedge into a 500yd hole.

Edited June 19 by hammergolf

[hammergolf]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:09 PM, bobfoster said:

Yes - then again, Kuehne was a freak of nature (I actually got to watch him live once - at the time it was roughly like what it would look like today in Kyle Berkshire teed it up on the PGAT). But I shouldn't have mentioned the longest driver on tour (that was just to make a minor point). At the time, he blew people away. But he was actually the outlier - in 2003, his average was 321, but the PGAT average was 286 ... a differential of 35 yards. Rory was longest in 2023 at 326, but the PGAT average was 297 ... difference between the longest and the average had shrunk from 35 to 29. It is not just the outlier bombers, the entire tour (and in fact even amateurs) are all getting longer. 

 

And don't think this has to do simply with old shorter hitters retiring, and longer guys getting on tour - the numbers aren't coming about merely because of a statistical variance.  Nor do "the suits" think players should hit the bar instead of the range, nor do they in any way "blame" equipment.

 

And I wasn't quoting USGA ideas as though they were gospel. If you read what I wrote, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything, I was just explaining the perspective folks working there have - mostly to counter a lot of the garbage I hear spoken about them as though it is the truth. You are free to frame them as "suits" who think "equipment is at fault". Won't try to convince you otherwise. 

 

But from my experience and conversations with some of them (and a lot of their published research), they don't think significantly increasing average distances are something any particular thing is to "blame" for. The increasing distance comes from a wide variety of factors. Equipment, including balls, clubs, and shafts. New very specialized fitting technology that lets players optimize clubs/shafts/balls to their swings. Better training technology, and the coaches capable of making use of it to perfect swings. A lot more time in the gym - in the 70s and 80s it was not uncommon to see players strolling down the fairway smoking cigarettes (Ben Hogan was actually sponsored by Chesterfield for years) - these days some of these guys work out with professional trainers every bit as much as pro MLB players do. 

 

No one at the USGA thinks golf balls are "the problem". What they do know is that they were facing a very distinct issue: The combination of all of those factors was starting to cause concern amongst course owners and managers all over the US. Many were either lengthening, or feeling like they should lengthen their courses - at a time when running courses is not only becoming increasingly expensive, but when many are coming under growing environmental scrutiny. They use a lot of resources, and are not always environmentally friendly. Lengthening courses  - causing additional costs and environmental impacts - is an issue for the sport, whether individual golfers want to recognize it or not. It may not be a big deal to individual golfers (it is more course owners), but environmentalism and sustainability is becoming a big deal. Many course owners are facing pressure from local and even national organizations. [You probably haven't even heard about it, but the USGA has a significant Green Initiative going on ... https://www.usga.org/advancing-the-game/golf-sustainability.html].

 

Please understand this. The USGA considers everything - including even the social milieu the sport is operating within. Even existing golf courses are coming under scrutiny as being environmentally "unfriendly" (https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/08/golf/climate-change-sustainability-spt-intl-cmd/index.html) - this is not the greatest time to be talking about adding distance to them. I'll bet almost no one complaining about the new ball rule even remotely considers that. The USGA does. 

 

Increasing distance is an issue. It just is. No, the USGA did not even remotely think the ball was the sole cause of that issue - but if you do have to address it as an issue, what are your options? Behavioral? Stop players from hitting the gym as much? Don't allow them to use modern swing training technology? (Obviously silly.) Or equipment? Place limits on clubheads? Maybe (for instance) crank back from 460cc to 420cc or less? Mostly trivial (these guys are so now that it is mostly just loft that matters - I saw a couple guys hit 3FW hit balls close to 300 off the deck at Valspar today). Shafts? No. If you have to address distance as a real issue, limitations on the ball is about all you can do that would be universally applicable. Across courses, playing conditions, and skills levels. 

 

The health of the sport in the US depends upon the OEMs (making our equipment), the 26 million golfers (who play the game and watch the pros), and the 15,000+ course owners and managers (without whom our sports doesn't exist) all having their interests taken into account. 

 

I am a fan of the USGA, because I kinda get the nearly impossible job they have of attempting to balance the needs of all of those (often very conflicting) constituencies. Almost always doing it very carefully, with a lot of research and consideration (if you really want to dig into the data, this is the final results of the distance study, released in 2023 but the USGA/R&A - it is exhaustive: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/2023-Distance-Report-final-310124.pdf), and almost always knowing they'll be accused of being nothing more than arrogant "suits" only doing what they are doing because they're old white control freaks who take great delight in making you, personally, take a half a club extra from 160 out. 

 

Please try to see it from their perspective before you frame them incorrectly. As the old saying goes, "Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Why not? Even if after that you don't agree, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes." 🤣

 

PS. not being antagonistic here @Shilgy. We both been on WRX awhile. I respect you. hope you'll give an honest consideration of this perspective. You may not agree with the solutions the USGA comes up with (in fact I don't always agree with them), but I do not doubt their intentions. For the most part, they really are out for the good of the game, the total game, in a way that no individual constituency (including the OEMs and PGAT) is. 

 

So the driving average has went up 9, NINE, yards since 2003. There wasn’t drive and gouge back then. Pros didn’t hit driver off every tee and swing as hard as they could back then because now hitting in the rough, (or lack there of) isn’t a deterrent like it was 20 years ago. Rory is a freak of nature too, and possibly the best driver of the golf ball ever, so if you discount Keuhne as a freak of nature, so is Rory. Guys are hitting driver probably 15% - 25% more vs 2003 so it’s no surprise driving distance is up. Hitting a half a club less into a green isn’t going to threaten the game. The usga is looking at the wrong stat! The leader in scoring average in 2003 was 68.41, the leader in scoring avg in 2024 was 68.64. Tell me again how the distance debate is destroying the game??? 

Edited June 20 by hammergolf

[Nessism]

I plan to stock up on as many balls as I can before the change.  This change is 10x more stupid than the CC groove business.  Beyond stupid, really.  Funny, I've been getting emails from the USGA to reup my membership.  No freaking way I'm supporting those idiots with my money.  Too bad they don't give a crap about guys like us.  It would be funny to watch these guys read through threads like this.  Of course, they don't care what we think, so maybe not...

[ode1]

Hopefully there is enough demand for the "old" ball to still be produced!

[DaveLeeNC]

This just doesn't feel like something that will actually happen. A change that will result in a typical PGA pro losing 10'ish yards off the tee can hardly solve a big problem (IMHO). And all this furor can't be worth it if it only solves a small problem (again IMHO). 

 

dave

[hammergolf]

27 minutes ago, ode1 said:

Hopefully there is enough demand for the "old" ball to still be produced!

I would think that at least one manufacturer will offer them to test the market. In a perfect world all the manufacturers would offer them and the majority of golfers would buy them to give a huge middle finger to the usga….

[ode1]

4 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

I would think that at least one manufacturer will offer them to test the market. In a perfect world all the manufacturers would offer them and the majority of golfers would buy them to give a huge middle finger to the usga….

Might be a good model name for a ball🤔...HMF🙃

[hammergolf]

13 minutes ago, ode1 said:

Might be a good model name for a ball🤔...HMF🙃

I’d buy them!

[DJDJ]

The usga is essential just a self appointed rule making body. If you want to play in a sanctioned tournament, their opinion matters, but otherwise it doesn’t. I think they are risking making themselves irrelevant.

[wantacigar]

This year's USOpen proved that if you want to prioritize distance over accuracy YOU WILL BE PENALIZED.  By growing the fairways to the length they were in the 70's, 80's and 90's you eliminate the 50 yards of roll out.  grown the rough thicker so you are penalized and stop cutting down the trees.  With these conditions you can have tournaments at 7,000 yards and have -10 or less winning tournaments.  

[hollabachgt]

16 hours ago, hammergolf said:

That’s partially true, but only half the story. The OEM’s (not the professional tours or Wally) asked the usga to bifurcate the driver and make it “a condition of competition” and they absolutely refused and said that bifurcation will never be an option. The PGA Tour and Wally thought they had the power to make the usga buckle, they were wrong. I actually called the usga when this was being discussed and asked to speak with Michael Fey to discuss this, and to my shock, he picked up the line and spoke with me. I asked him why wouldn’t they use the condition of competition like they were doing with wedges at that time. He stated that it was only going to be a temporary solution until all manufacturers made the changes and that bifurcation was not an option. I asked why when there was already precedence for professional and elite amateur competition were already using different equipment than the majority of golfers. He simply stated that bifurcation was not the direction they were interested in. I asked him what were the usga willing to punish 99% of golfers because of what professional and elite amateurs were able to do in the game. His reply was simply “bifurcation is not the direction we have any interest in pursuing” It was at that moment I realized the usga had ZERO interest in the majority of golfers who play this game. They are only interested in control and power.

I'm not sure who you spoke to, who is Michael Fey? 

 

The current CEO of the USGA is Mike Whan, the past CEO was Mike Davis, and his predecessor was David Fay. David Fay retired at the end of 2010, The groove rule change occurred at the beginning of 2010, so I presume it was David you spoke too?

15 years ago and 2 leadership changes, it seems pretty clear the USGA has greatly pivoted away from the way Fey lead during his tenure.

 

 

[hammergolf]

48 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

I'm not sure who you spoke to, who is Michael Fey? 

 

The current CEO of the USGA is Mike Whan, the past CEO was Mike Davis, and his predecessor was David Fay. David Fay retired at the end of 2010, The groove rule change occurred at the beginning of 2010, so I presume it was David you spoke too?

15 years ago and 2 leadership changes, it seems pretty clear the USGA has greatly pivoted away from the way Fey lead during his tenure.

 

 

You’re correct, it was David Fey.

[new2g0lf]

3 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

I'm not sure who you spoke to, who is Michael Fey? 

 

The current CEO of the USGA is Mike Whan, the past CEO was Mike Davis, and his predecessor was David Fay. David Fay retired at the end of 2010, The groove rule change occurred at the beginning of 2010, so I presume it was David you spoke too?

15 years ago and 2 leadership changes, it seems pretty clear the USGA has greatly pivoted away from the way Fey lead during his tenure.

 

 

The pivot was to partner closer with R&A and let them lead the way in setting the direction of golf world wide.  I'm not sure the general mindset has changed if their best solution to controlling how far the pro's hit the ball is to rollback the ball.  

[bekgolf]

7 hours ago, DJDJ said:

The usga is essential just a self appointed rule making body. If you want to play in a sanctioned tournament, their opinion matters, but otherwise it doesn’t. I think they are risking making themselves irrelevant.

 

All it would take is for the PGA to offer handicapping services for amateurs and rules for those handicaps.  Just like that the USGA would not be needed for their prime purpose of handicapping local Men's and Women's clubs. 

 

Once it happened the USGA would fade away into the sunset instead of trying to make golf harder for it's members.

[Double Mocha Man]

30 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

All it would take is for the PGA to offer handicapping services for amateurs and rules for those handicaps.  Just like that the USGA would not be needed for their prime purpose of handicapping local Men's and Women's clubs. 

 

Once it happened the USGA would fade away into the sunset instead of trying to make golf harder for it's members.

 

But then who is going to mail you a USGA bag tag very year???

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, cycling is now having its own version of "roll-back". In the cycling case it is limited to the highest levels of professional cycling (for now) and the basis is safety. The limitation is on the max allowable gear ratios. 

 

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-to-trial-gear-restrictions-in-pro-cycling?utm_campaign=20%2F06%2F2025&utm_content=Read more&utm_term=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Adestra

 

dave

[Asics10]

Just grow the damn rough, problem solved. 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, Asics10 said:

Just grow the damn rough, problem solved. 

 

Everyone will want to be a short hitter like the guy that just won the US Open.

[bekgolf]

2 hours ago, Asics10 said:

Just grow the damn rough, problem solved. 

 

I've heard that before, can't remember where...

 

Not a dig on you, many of us have brought it up in the past and it falls on deaf ears.  Punishing errant shots doesn't stop modern golfers from hitting farther than the old golf heroes did.  IMO that's the true reason for a roll back.

[RSinSG]

I'm not too worried about not being able to purchase current balls in the future. I have faith in the free market system and since 97% (made up stat - I don't know the exact number but assume its very high) of golfers in the world do not and never will play in a USGA sanctioned event golf ball manufactures will continue to meet the demand of their customers. 

[Ghostwedge]

7 minutes ago, RSinSG said:

I'm not too worried about not being able to purchase current balls in the future. I have faith in the free market system and since 97% (made up stat - I don't know the exact number but assume its very high) of golfers in the world do not and never will play in a USGA sanctioned event golf ball manufactures will continue to meet the demand of their customers. 

This ^^

When anchored putters were banned thought I would see a few still in use. 

I didn't, but today's golf ball will be fine. There are a few million old guys with a  large stash of golf balls, they find more than they lose. 

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, Ghostwedge said:

This ^^

When anchored putters were banned thought I would see a few still in use. 

I didn't, but today's golf ball will be fine. There are a few million old guys with a  large stash of golf balls, they find more than they lose. 

 

What's next? Shaved driver faces to increase COR?  Just kidding, but I can't wait to see the packaging for the balls.  "This ball is illegal for USGA play".  And on the ball there will be a small printed skull and crossbones.

[Nessism]

Remember the groove rule, where everyone with "illegal" grooves would have to buy new clubs by 2024?  Well, that rule change hit the skids, and never came to pass.  Yes, yes, I know that CC grooves are required in many high level and pro events, but I'm talking about for us normal slugs, just playing golf on muni courses.  I'm hoping that this dumb ball rule will meet a similar end.  Hopefully, the idiot governors that agreed to the change will all exit the stage, and with time, and maturity, the proper clarity will prevail.

[Pnwpingi210]

On 6/20/2025 at 5:25 AM, DJDJ said:

The usga is essential just a self appointed rule making body. If you want to play in a sanctioned tournament, their opinion matters, but otherwise it doesn’t. I think they are risking making themselves irrelevant.

*Sanctioned tournament or establish a handicap in the us.

[Pnwpingi210]

4 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

What's next? Shaved driver faces to increase COR?  Just kidding, but I can't wait to see the packaging for the balls.  "This ball is illegal for USGA play".  And on the ball there will be a small printed skull and crossbones.

This.

 

if your not going to use a conforming ball, you may as well not use any other non conforming equipment as well!  I mean the ball is the only thing that you use every single stroke 🤣

[hammergolf]

3 hours ago, Nessism said:

Remember the groove rule, where everyone with "illegal" grooves would have to buy new clubs by 2024?  Well, that rule change hit the skids, and never came to pass.  Yes, yes, I know that CC grooves are required in many high level and pro events, but I'm talking about for us normal slugs, just playing golf on muni courses.  I'm hoping that this dumb ball rule will meet a similar end.  Hopefully, the idiot governors that agreed to the change will all exit the stage, and with time, and maturity, the proper clarity will prevail.

Unfortunately “the idiot governors” and their cronies have no interest in making decisions based on facts, they just control and power. They have no concept of what the actual game of golf is about. If they did, they wouldn’t waste time in dumb decisions like renaming hazards to “penalty areas” or demand people used the word “tied” instead of all square. And this is from an entity claiming they want to protect the history of the game…. Their arrogance and unwillingness to understand that punishing 99.9% golfers for what .01% can do with a golf ball is bad for the game will hopefully lead to their demise. And for all of the usga apologists, the scoring average has INCREASED in the bomb and gouge era over what it was 20 years ago. Please , remind how the .01% of golfers are threatening the game so much that the usga feels the need to punish regular golfers…..

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Unfortunately “the idiot governors” and their cronies have no interest in making decisions based on facts, they just control and power. They have no concept of what the actual game of golf is about. If they did, they wouldn’t waste time in dumb decisions like renaming hazards to “penalty areas” or demand people used the word “tied” instead of all square. And this is from an entity claiming they want to protect the history of the game…. Their arrogance and unwillingness to understand that punishing 99.9% golfers for what .01% can do with a golf ball is bad for the game will hopefully lead to their demise. And for all of the usga apologists, the scoring average has INCREASED in the bomb and gouge era over what it was 20 years ago. Please , remind how the .01% of golfers are threatening the game so much that the usga feels the need to punish regular golfers…..

Is it really a punishment if its a change to the rules that applies to everyone?

[hammergolf]

14 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

This.

 

if your not going to use a conforming ball, you may as well not use any other non conforming equipment as well!  I mean the ball is the only thing that you use every single stroke 🤣

Yes, it’s absolutely a punishment! When the almost absolute majority of golfers pose ZERO threat to scoring, not only is it a punishment, it’s wholly unfair and not necessary. Why make the game harder for 99.9% of gofers in an attempt (albeit not needed) to control the abilities of .01% of golfers.
As far as the usga’s track record on PROVING any of their equipment proposals and rules, usga is seldom right when it comes to what they call “non conforming”. I mean it’s so obvious that Ping Eye2 irons are so superior to “conforming” irons that they needed to be outlawed right???If there was actual data and proof that their decisions and opinions are correct I would be fine with their decisions. But the facts of the matter is they seldom, if ever are. The OEMs constantly show how wrong they are. They made a new groove spec. Then guess what, Callaway submits the same club that was rejected earlier, but this time with grooves built to that new groove spec and they actually spun MORE than the old groove. The scoring average on the PGA Tour is actually HIGHER now than it was 20 years ago. Johnny Miller shot 63 at Oakmont in the 70’s. The best any golfer could do this year with this supposed “game threatening technology” was 65. The usga is wrong, but their arrogance and refusal to compromise won’t let them admit it.

Edited June 21 by hammergolf

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Yeah, cause the usga is always right when it comes to what they call “non conforming”. I mean it’s so obvious that Ping Eye2 irons are so superior to “conforming” irons…. If there was actual data and proof that their decisions and opinions are correct I would be fine with their decisions. But the facts of the matter prove they seldom, if ever are. The OEMs constantly show how wrong they are. They made a new groove spec. Then guess what, Callaway submits the same club that was rejected earlier, but this time with grooves built to that new groove spec and they actually spun MORE than the old groove. The scoring average on the PGA Tour is actually HIGHER now than it was 20 years ago. Johnny Miller shot 63 at Oakmont in the 70’s. The best any golfer could do this year with this supposed “game threatening technology” was 65. The usga is wrong, but their arrogance and refusal to compromise won’t let them admit it.

That diatribe is great and all, but it doesn’t really matter.

 

The rule will have changed and the a non conforming ball is a non conforming ball.  Same as a 600 cc driver, shaved face driver, etc.  there’s non difference in using one or the other once the rule changes