USGA and R&A Announce golf ball rollback for everyone!?!?!

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, hammergolf said:

What is the reasoning behind needing a rule change?

Once again, not what I’m debating or what I said.  
 

[hammergolf]

9 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

False.  OEMs opposed bifurcstion

That is not true. The usga went to the PGA Tour and asked their elitist buddy Wally about driver limits on the tour and in elite completion over a decade ago. They NEVER sent out a letter on a driver bifurcation proposal to other OEM’s like they have for the ball. But once again, if they are really about growing the game and making golf a better game why would they not ask it’s members what they think. I can’t explain logic to someone who doesn’t understand it, but based on your position, little leagues need to go to wood bats because of how far MLB and NCAA players can hit a baseball. What’s next? are pee wee football leagues going to have to use the nfl ball? 

Edited June 21 by hammergolf

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

That is not true. The usga went to the PGA Tour and asked their elitist buddy Wally about driver limits on the tour and in elite completion over a decade ago. They NEVER sent out a letter on a driver bifurcation proposal to other OEM’s like they have for the ball. But once again, if they are really about growing the game and making golf a better game why would they not ask it’s members what they think. I can’t explain logic to someone who doesn’t understand it, but based on your position, little leagues need to go to wood bats because of how far MLB and NCAA players can hit a baseball. What’s next? are pee wee football leagues going to have to use the nfl ball? 

False.  How much longer you want to do this?

 

David Ables, Taylormade, 2018

 

“We have meticulously reviewed the USGA and R&A’s 2017 Distance Report and discussed its findings with key stakeholders,” his statement reads. “Additionally, we have carefully considered the inferred implications that the study may have on the game moving forward. The TaylorMade Golf Company firmly opposes any potential rollback of product performance or bifurcation of the rules in any form as we believe these movements will be detrimental to the game at every level.”

 

 

[hammergolf]

16 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I’d love to be longer than tour average like JJ! 304.6 on the year is not short.

 

For all of those crying about the rollback you forget a few things….

 

1) many of us grew up playing a ball shorter than the rollback ball will be. So big deal!

 

2)  all this whining about the cor or ct being a matter of inches in difference off the tee doesn’t matter a bit.  All you have to do is to do what the pros have done to hit it longer. Work out! Get fit! Speed train! 
 We had a long drive contest at our member guest this year.  347 won….and the event was held on a slightly uphill hole.

 

3) one post last page(I’m not going to quote it) referred to leaving the fairways cut longer “like the days of yore”.  US Open fairways were cut shorter than the greens most here play and they had very little rollout because of the vast amounts of rain received at Oakmont.   The fairways you play at home today are also likely cut shorter than courses of the 70’s.

 

4) The “short hitter” that won the US Open drove the green at the 312 yard par 4 17th on Sunday. That whole is straight uphill.  Again…that’s not short.

 

Last…. as @Pnwpingi210 has been pointing out it’s not a punishment to go back.  What difference does it make if everyone is playing to the same specs?  Pride gets hurt because you’re shorter than you used to be?  I would bet with a wee bit of training and better contact you’d hit the new ball further than you do now.

 

I’ve been against the rollback as well since it was first announced but am changing my opinion. Mostly based on many of the arguments against it in this and other threads.  The ball is the only logical way to reign in distance.  Smaller driver heads would be a negligible difference.  If you can swing hard with a 3 wood there would be no control worries about a smaller driver heads.

 

So play what you want until 2030. But my guess is if you continue playing the current ball after that you would be scorned as a cheater by your golf pals the same as if one attempted to use the Polara or other hot non conforming balls available today.

 

 

 

Ok, so what word you use to describe to the avg 12hdcp man or 28hdcp women that probably can’t reach several holes in regulation, that the ball the use will now go even shorter than it does now?

[hammergolf]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

False.  How much longer you want to do this?

 

David Ables, Taylormade, 2018

 

“We have meticulously reviewed the USGA and R&A’s 2017 Distance Report and discussed its findings with key stakeholders,” his statement reads. “Additionally, we have carefully considered the inferred implications that the study may have on the game moving forward. The TaylorMade Golf Company firmly opposes any potential rollback of product performance or bifurcation of the rules in any form as we believe these movements will be detrimental to the game at every level.”

 

 

Did you read the part that said “distance report” NOT proposal??? I was in the golf business for 30+ years. The usga and R&A send out reports multiple times every year for comments. However, they NEVER sent a proposal for driver bifurcation statement so it was never rejected by oems.As I said earlier, you are partially true. The majority of information I share came directly from Frank Thomas who the technical director at the usga. Even he left them when he felt they were becoming too restrictive on the game. 

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Ok, so what word you use to describe to the avg 12hdcp man or 28hdcp women that probably can’t reach several holes in regulation, that the ball the use will now go even shorter than it does now?

Based on the poor contact they most likely make with driver I doubt it will affect them much.  The older low handicap guys will probably see a bigger difference than the type of player you mention.  Swings slower but still hits center would be affected more I would think.

 

And…as I mentioned in the post you replied to all they are really doing is going back to the performance of the balls from 26 and more years ago.  Before the solid balls really took over.

 

 

[hammergolf]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Based on the poor contact they most likely make with driver I doubt it will affect them much.  The older low handicap guys will probably see a bigger difference than the type of player you mention.  Swings slower but still hits center would be affected more I would think.

 

And…as I mentioned in the post you replied to all they are really doing is going back to the performance of the balls from 26 and more years ago.  Before the solid balls really took over.

 

 

So only single digit hdcp, younger players, or 70yr old Jack Lelannes are allowed to play and enjoy the game?  Absolutely the most elitist, delusional, arrogant comment I’ve ever seen. 

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Did you read the part that said “distance report” NOT proposal??? I was in the golf business for 30+ years. The usga and R&A send out reports multiple times every year for comments. However, they NEVER sent a proposal for driver bifurcation statement so it was never rejected by oems.As I said earlier, you are partially true. The majority of information I share came directly from Frank Thomas who the technical director at the usga. Even he left them when he felt they were becoming too restrictive on the game. 

I said the oems rejected bifurcation.  The response from taylormade supports that.  There are other oems that made similar official statements.  I’m not going to post them  all.

 

Let’s stop.  I’ve made my point and backed up my position with facts.  You continue to tell me I’m wrong and then post misinformation at best or deflect to question me on a position I haven’t taken or supprot

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Did you read the part that said “distance report” NOT proposal??? I was in the golf business for 30+ years. The usga and R&A send out reports multiple times every year for comments. However, they NEVER sent a proposal for driver bifurcation statement so it was never rejected by oems.As I said earlier, you are partially true. The majority of information I share came directly from Frank Thomas who the technical director at the usga. Even he left them when he felt they were becoming too restrictive on the game. 

for good measure……

 

https://mediacenter.titleist.com/en-US/224086-acushnet-response-to-usga-and-r-a-notice-comment-proposing-golf-ball-bifurcation#:~:text=The USGA and R&A have,in search of a problem.”

[hammergolf]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

I said the oems rejected bifurcation.  The response from taylormade supports that.  There are other oems that made similar official statements.  I’m not going to post them  all.

 

Let’s stop.  I’ve made my point and backed up my position with facts.  You continue to tell me I’m wrong and then post misinformation at best or deflect to question me on a position I haven’t taken or supprot

 

 

What is misinformed about FACTS? What’s the scoring average today vs 2003? Do wedges spin more or less than they did in 20023. Are more Course records being set now vs 2003. That’s just on the professional and elite amateur side. Are handicaps going down drastically because of this “non conforming” or “game threatening” equipment. Not sure about what is “misinformation” about those FACTS! Of course nine of this is happening, yet you’re fine with a rule that will make the game harder for the overwhelming majority of golfers. 

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

What is misinformed about FACTS? What’s the scoring average today vs 2003? Do wedges spin more or less than they did in 20023. Are more Course records being set now vs 2003. That’s just on the professional and elite amateur side. Are handicaps going down drastically because of this “non conforming” or “game threatening” equipment. Not sure about what is “misinformation” about those FACTS! Of course nine of this is happening, yet you’re fine with a rule that will make the game harder for the overwhelming majority of golfers. 

What you said about the using a non conforming driver - false and proven with linked information

 

what you said the bifurcation was false - proven with links to supprot

 

What you said about the ball change not applying universally to all was incorrect.  The current proposed ball  changes applies to all, so factually you were incorrect.

 

They rest of stuff you keep deflecting to as you gloss over my counter points to our original discussion (punishment, and only use a non informing ball) is irrelevant the two discussion points/positions we started from.  
 

im not going to engage on the other topics because they weren’t part of the original two, and I don’t have a position on them.

[Nessism]

44 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

What is the reasoning behind needing a rule change?

This is to the core of the issue!  Because every day golfers are hitting it too long?  Ha ha.  

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

So only single digit hdcp, younger players, or 70yr old Jack Lelannes are allowed to play and enjoy the game?  Absolutely the most elitist, delusional, arrogant comment I’ve ever seen. 

How the heck did you get that from my reply?🤯  My point was, as if you didn’t know,  is if the 12 cap is short now it’s most likely the contact on the clubface issue….not a rolled back ball.  The post you replied was stating the opposite of how you took it.  Those players you think I said could be the only to enjoy the game would be most affected by the rollback.

 

 I will add…. I’m 68, the age where distance really stops to drop.  Recently I’ve moved up from the tips to the 6600 tees and even sometimes the 6300.  If I get rolled back a few yards or even 20 why would that affect my enjoyment of hitting a solidly struck shot or a well holed putt with the camaraderie of good friends?

[hammergolf]

3 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

for good measure……

 

https://mediacenter.titleist.com/en-US/224086-acushnet-response-to-usga-and-r-a-notice-comment-proposing-golf-ball-bifurcation#:~:text=The USGA and R&A have,in search of a problem.”

When did I ever say Wally didn’t disagree? Once again notice the “comments” part of the usga report. You are confusing “comments” on a report to an actual bifurcation rule change proposal that was never presented to the OEMs The fact is the PGA Tour and Wally were right then and they are right now. PGA Tour scoring average has not had any drastic change. In fact it was slightly higher last year than it was in 2003. Driving distance has essentially stayed the same over the last 20 years. It’s fluctuated  by 5-7 yards higher AND lower from year to year to year by a few yards. Bubba led at 319.6yds in 2006 to last year with Rory at 326. (7yds)  I mean Rory just dominated last year won 14 tournaments right? Surely those 21 feet helped him obliterate the scoring records right? I mean he must have set 20 or 30 new course records because he was hitting it 7yds further than Bubba did in 2006 right? Of course the answer to those questions is no he did not….. 
 

https://www.golfcompendium.com/2018/12/pga-tour-scoring-leaders.html

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golfers-average-handicaps-1984-2023-usga-handicap-archive#

 

https://www.pga.com/story/how-driving-distance-has-changed-over-the-past-40-years-on-the-pga-tour?srsltid=AfmBOooLkv3LXVwqyXUmQlLWYb_2A-wgaqEua4is6qDJ3NhmqNzYAFAl

[Shilgy]

15 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

What is misinformed about FACTS? What’s the scoring average today vs 2003? Do wedges spin more or less than they did in 20023. Are more Course records being set now vs 2003. That’s just on the professional and elite amateur side. Are handicaps going down drastically because of this “non conforming” or “game threatening” equipment. Not sure about what is “misinformation” about those FACTS! Of course nine of this is happening, yet you’re fine with a rule that will make the game harder for the overwhelming majority of golfers. 

Course records?  Not that that has anything to do with the discussion really but how many of these were before 2003?

58: 

Jim Furyk: 2016 Travelers Championship. 

59: 

Al Geiberger: 1977 Memphis Classic. 

Chip Beck: 1991 Las Vegas Invitational. 

David Duval: 1999 Bob Hope Invitational. 

Paul Goydos: 2010 John Deere Classic. 

Stuart Appleby: 2010 Greenbrier Classic. 

Jim Furyk: 2013 BMW Championship. 

Justin Thomas: 2017 Sony Open. 

Adam Hadwin: 2017 CareerBuilder Challenge. 

Brandt Snedeker: 2018 Wyndham Championship. 

Kevin Chappell: 2019 Military Tribute at The Greenbrier. 

Scottie Scheffler: 2020 The Northern Trust. 

Cameron Young: 2024 Travelers Championship. 

Hayden Springer: 2024 John Deere Classic. 

Jake Knapp: 2025 Cognizant Classic. 

[Nessism]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

How the heck did you get that from my reply?🤯  My point was, as if you didn’t know,  is if the 12 cap is short now it’s most likely the contact on the clubface issue….not a rolled back ball.  The post you replied was stating the opposite of how you took it.  Those players you think I said could be the only to enjoy the game would be most affected by the rollback.

 

 I will add…. I’m 68, the age where distance really stops to drop.  Recently I’ve moved up from the tips to the 6600 tees and even sometimes the 6300.  If I get rolled back a few yards or even 20 why would that affect my enjoyment of hitting a solidly struck shot or a well holed putt with the camaraderie of good friends?

Golf will still be fun, even if we are forced to play balls made of playdogh.  What gets people rangled up is that the ruling body is FORCING a change on EVERYONE, just because elite pros hit the ball a ton.  This is BS.  

[hammergolf]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Course records?  Not that that has anything to do with the discussion really but how many of these were before 2003?

58: 

Jim Furyk: 2016 Travelers Championship. 

59: 

Al Geiberger: 1977 Memphis Classic. 

Chip Beck: 1991 Las Vegas Invitational. 

David Duval: 1999 Bob Hope Invitational. 

Paul Goydos: 2010 John Deere Classic. 

Stuart Appleby: 2010 Greenbrier Classic. 

Jim Furyk: 2013 BMW Championship. 

Justin Thomas: 2017 Sony Open. 

Adam Hadwin: 2017 CareerBuilder Challenge. 

Brandt Snedeker: 2018 Wyndham Championship. 

Kevin Chappell: 2019 Military Tribute at The Greenbrier. 

Scottie Scheffler: 2020 The Northern Trust. 

Cameron Young: 2024 Travelers Championship. 

Hayden Springer: 2024 John Deere Classic. 

Jake Knapp: 2025 Cognizant Classic. 

You literally just proved my point…. Why make a ball rule when the data absolutely shows the game is not under threat. And it 100% damn sure isn’t under attack from the 99% of recreational golfers.

[Shilgy]

Just now, hammergolf said:

You literally just proved my point…. Why make a ball rule when the data absolutely shows the game is not under threat. And it 100% damn sure isn’t under attack from the 99% of recreational golfers.

Wow….for the last time I replied to your post implying that more course records were set in 2003 than since. And as if that was a reason to say we don’t need a rollback. I show the number of low scores under 60 where just 3 were shot before 2010 and it somehow proves your point?🤦🏼

 

I’m out on this “discussion”.  Either the rollback happens or it doesn’t….if I’m still alive I’ll be playing and enjoying the game regardless.

 

Peace out.

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

When did I ever say Wally didn’t disagree? Once again notice the “comments” part of the usga report. You are confusing “comments” on a report to an actual bifurcation rule change proposal that was never presented to the OEMs The fact is the PGA Tour and Wally were right then and they are right now. PGA Tour scoring average has not had any drastic change. In fact it was slightly higher last year than it was in 2003. Driving distance has essentially stayed the same over the last 20 years. It’s fluctuated  by 5-7 yards higher AND lower from year to year to year by a few yards. Bubba led at 319.6yds in 2006 to last year with Rory at 326. (7yds)  I mean Rory just dominated last year won 14 tournaments right? Surely those 21 feet helped him obliterate the scoring records right? I mean he must have set 20 or 30 new course records because he was hitting it 7yds further than Bubba did in 2006 right? Of course the answer to those questions is no he did not….. 
 

https://www.golfcompendium.com/2018/12/pga-tour-scoring-leaders.html

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golfers-average-handicaps-1984-2023-usga-handicap-archive#

 

https://www.pga.com/story/how-driving-distance-has-changed-over-the-past-40-years-on-the-pga-tour?srsltid=AfmBOooLkv3LXVwqyXUmQlLWYb_2A-wgaqEua4is6qDJ3NhmqNzYAFAl

I said the oems were against, or rejected, bifurcation.  They provided their (now you have two posted - Taylormade and Acushnet) comments, which are clear opposition to bifurcation.  These are facts.  If you want to continue to dispute that in your head, you can.

 

 

The rest of your post is irrelevant to any position I’ve taken.  I’m not going to debate those things with you cause quite frankly the nicest way I can put it is they are tangential at best.

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Wow….for the last time I replied to your post implying that more course records were set in 2003 than since. And as if that was a reason to say we don’t need a rollback. I show the number of low scores under 60 where just 3 were shot before 2010 and it somehow proves your point?🤦🏼

 

I’m out on this “discussion”.  Either the rollback happens or it doesn’t….if I’m still alive I’ll be playing and enjoying the game regardless.

 

Peace out.

I mean 🤷

[Pnwpingi210]

I would pay good money to watch hammergolf and Mike Whan debate the rollback.

[Pnwpingi210]

20 minutes ago, Nessism said:

Golf will still be fun, even if we are forced to play balls made of playdogh.  What gets people rangled up is that the ruling body is FORCING a change on EVERYONE, just because elite pros hit the ball a ton.  This is BS.  

I understand this sentiment completely 

[hammergolf]

18 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

What you said about the using a non conforming driver - false and proven with linked information

 

what you said the bifurcationsd was false - proven with links to supprot

e OF

What you said about the ball change not applying universally to all was incorrect.  The current proposed ball  changes applies to all, so factually you were incorrect.

 

They rest of stuff you keep deflecting to as you gloss over my counter points to our original discussion (punishment, and only use a non informing ball) is irrelevant the two discussion points/positions we started from.  
 

im not going to engage on the other topics because they weren’t part of the original two, and I don’t have a position on them.

Man, not sure whose posts you’re reading. I said there WAS a difference between conforming and non conforming drivers butt the yardage was inches then you posted it was 2-3yds (24” or 36”)

 

You continue to confuse OEM comments on a 2017 report from the usga and RA. This report is from 8yrs ago and WAS NEVER AN OFFER for bifurcation. In fact, they never even sent a proposal to OEMs about what a limit would be.

 

 When did I ever say the ball rule doesn’t affect all golfers? It is literally the entire reason this thread exists. Because the overwhelming majority of golfers have had a rule enacted that effects them even though it’s a practical physical impossibility they are the cause of this supposed issue.

 

This is like trying to have a discussion with the usga. You won’t accept facts, logic, or what the recreational game that’s played by the overwhelming of golfers. I’m a low single digit golfer, but I understand the reality of how hard this game is for most golfers. I see no need to make it even harder for them. Especially when the data doesn’t support the issue the usga says exist. However if they feel they have that data do what’s right, have the rule only effect them.

[hammergolf]

33 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I would pay good money to watch hammergolf and Mike Whan debate the rollback.

I’d love to, but it’s an impossibility and non starter because he wouldn’t look at the data, wouldn’t listen and damn sure would not be willing to compromise. They’ve made their position crystal clear. I’d pay good money to watch Whan see a senior 12hdcp play a round of golf with the new proposed ball that takes distance off every single shot they hit……

Edited June 21 by hammergolf

[hammergolf]

26 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Wow….for the last time I replied to your post implying that more course records were set in 2003 than since. And as if that was a reason to say we don’t need a rollback. I show the number of low scores under 60 where just 3 were shot before 2010 and it somehow proves your point?🤦🏼

 

I’m out on this “discussion”.  Either the rollback happens or it doesn’t….if I’m still alive I’ll be playing and enjoying the game regardless.

 

Peace out.

9 records set pre 2018, 6 records set after that when supposedly the game is under attack. Look at scoring average leaders for more proof. And let’s not even talk about the PERFECT conditions they play now vs a decade ago when they actually had rough.

Edited June 21 by hammergolf

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Man, not sure whose posts you’re reading. I said there WAS a difference between conforming and non conforming drivers butt the yardage was inches then you posted it was 2-3yds (24” or 36”)

 

You continue to confuse OEM comments on a 2017 report from the usga and RA. This report is from 8yrs ago and WAS NEVER AN OFFER for bifurcation. In fact, they never even sent a proposal to OEMs about what a limit would be.

 

 When did I ever say the ball rule doesn’t affect all golfers? It is literally the entire reason this thread exists. Because the overwhelming majority of golfers have had a rule enacted that effects them even though it’s a practical physical impossibility they are the cause of this supposed issue.

 

This is like trying to have a discussion with the usga. You won’t accept facts, logic, or what the recreational game that’s played by the overwhelming of golfers. I’m a low single digit golfer, but I understand the reality of how hard this game is for most golfers. I see no need to make it even harder for them. Especially when the data doesn’t support the issue the usga says exist. However if they feel they have that data do what’s right, have the rule only effect them.

It’s more than inches and it’s more than 2-3 yards for a non conforming driver.  The 2-3 yards is what you gain by playing a driver that exceeds the 239 ct spec, but is within the 18 ms tolerance and therefore that is still conforming! A non conforming driver can greatly exceed that and result in many more yards as that article and points out.

 

im not confusing anything.  They are opposed to it plain and simple.  They’ve made offical statement to the USGA when asked for comment and have them on their own websites.  End of story.

 

This is where you said that… it’s your post

1 hour ago, hammergolf said:

But it doesn’t universally apply to all. THATS THE POINT. The usga is changing a rule because it feels like a minuscule segment of players may pose a threat. So instead of doing what any logical human or governing body would do and only apply a new rule to them, they refuse to compromise and apply the rule to the overwhelming majority of the constituents they claim to help. It’s not that they can’t make an equipment rule for the professional and elite amateur game, because they have already done it. It’s that they refuse to even look at data that clearly shows their unwillingness to compromise “for the good of the game”. Hmm wonder where I’ve heard that phrase before…..

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

9 records set pre 2018, 6 records set after that when supposedly the game is under attack. Look at scoring average leaders for more proof.

You asked for 2003.  What is the significance of 2018?

[Pnwpingi210]

Ok, im leaving now.  This can’t be real.

[hammergolf]

2 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

It’s more than inches and it’s more than 2-3 yards for a non conforming driver.  The 2-3 yards is what you gain by playing a driver that exceeds the 239 ct spec, but is within the 18 ms tolerance and therefore that is still conforming! A non conforming driver can greatly exceed that and result in many more yards as that article and points out.

 

im not confusing anything.  They are opposed to it plain and simple.  They’ve made offical statement to the USGA when asked for comment and have them on their own websites.  End of story.

 

This is where you said that… it’s your post

 

 

I give! Hard to debate someone that can’t understand logic and doesn’t comprehend words. You obviously have no icomprehension of the recreational game of golf. You confuse the cause and effect of a rule and how it will have an unproportionate effect on 99% of golfers when they are NOT the root cause for this supposed issue in any way. 

Edited June 22 by hammergolf

[hammergolf]

12 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

You asked for 2003.  What is the significance of 2018?

Because that’s the year of the usga report you continue to talk about…..

Edited June 21 by hammergolf