Andy Carter explains Cowan’s spinning the trail arm down

[skraly]

Much clearer for those that had questions.

 

[Scottbox]

This is a great feel that I use. 

[gators78]

Totally unrelated, those Vega Mizar pro irons he’s using look sharrrrrrrrp.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

As a caution, and I'm glad that this did not happen to any of you, be careful when you first try to implement this move.  Go slow.  Make sure your shoulders and arms are well stretched and able to move, especially your trail arm.

 

I saw a Maunde video where he was working with Cowen, and I eagerly jumped with both feet into trying it.  At 50.  Ended up straining my right rotator cuff fairly badly.  It's mostly healed now---it wasn't that bad a strain---but evidently whatever I was doing before in the swing wasn't stressing my trail shoulder the way that did.

 

Really useful feel though, I agree.

[Scottbox]

I know! I mean, my arm ripped off and went flying down the fairway with a nice baby draw.

[hafnia]

In all honesty - Pete Cowen is one of the most frustrating golf coaches I've ever watched.  If he didn't know what he was talking about you could file him among half the others who sell snake oil and earn a fortune....  the fact is you can tell he knows his stuff and you spend time after watching his videos going on forums to see if someone has managed to understand what he was talking about.

 

I'm not sure if he is intentionally tough to understand - I think his grumpy style means people don't challenge him enough and ask for clarification.

 

The spinning right arm is something I think I managed to nail and found my shots were lower and more compressed - for me it feels like a powerful right arm extension on top of the ball with an anticlockwise rotation of the right forearm whilst having your right elbow pit facing outwards.  The key for me is that the left arm has to pull in and exit left whilst the right wrist maintains the hinge.

 

The spiral staircase drill is an absolute mystery to me - the loading of the right shoulder again another mystery.  I've watched this after seeing Bradley Hughes videos and there are some commonalities to a degree but Hughes communicates better by a mile.

 

 

[mrjrogolfer]

I've watched Maude's Pete Cowen "twist the right arm" video and Andy Carter's explanatory video and for the life of me I still don't get it. Cowen stresses feeling the palm pointing down and the face closing in the downswing into the delivery position, yet he also says maintain the right wrist hinge ("flying wedge"). I don't understand how you can do the former and still maintain the latter.

[Laaandry]

17 hours ago, mrjrogolfer said:

I've watched Maude's Pete Cowen "twist the right arm" video and Andy Carter's explanatory video and for the life of me I still don't get it. Cowen stresses feeling the palm pointing down and the face closing in the downswing into the delivery position, yet he also says maintain the right wrist hinge ("flying wedge"). I don't understand how you can do the former and still maintain the latter.

I've played around with this some and it's (I think) a different feel for the same "lead with your trail elbow" idea that Monte and others have posted. If you maintain trail wrist flex, lead with your trail elbow, and rotate your chest, you'll find the palm facing the ground at impact as described. The forearm also does rotate independent of the wrist a little bit so that feeling might be better for some (I think that's how Cowen describes it), though I find the tucked elbow a bit better feel to grasp.

[me05501]

2 hours ago, Laaandry said:

I've played around with this some and it's (I think) a different feel for the same "lead with your trail elbow" idea that Monte and others have posted. If you maintain trail wrist flex, lead with your trail elbow, and rotate your chest, you'll find the palm facing the ground at impact as described. The forearm also does rotate independent of the wrist a little bit so that feeling might be better for some (I think that's how Cowen describes it), though I find the tucked elbow a bit better feel to grasp.

 

Right. Also similar to Monte's "humerus forward" or Porzak's "giving blood" feel for the trail arm. 

 

The video in the OP does make some sense to me especially the way he described thinking of the trail hand fingers pointing first toward the ball, then away from the target after the takeaway, toward the target at the top and away from the target at impact. 

 

Cowan says "spinning the arm down" as if anyone can readily grasp that. A more accurate statement would be "spinning the forearm down." Most people are probably going to grasp it faster by thinking of "spinning the trail hand down." I guess the language matters a lot less once you have the feel down. 

[Hilts1969]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:40 PM, mrjrogolfer said:

I've watched Maude's Pete Cowen "twist the right arm" video and Andy Carter's explanatory video and for the life of me I still don't get it. Cowen stresses feeling the palm pointing down and the face closing in the downswing into the delivery position, yet he also says maintain the right wrist hinge ("flying wedge"). I don't understand how you can do the former and still maintain the latter.

 

You can face the palm down with it hinged. The easiest way to see it and feel this unless I'm mistaken about Cowans move is :-

 

bend your right arm only and have the underside of the forearm facing you. Twist that underside away from you without any movement of the upper arm.

 

The right wrist should hinge naturally. 

 

The left arm when on a club and the urge to go after the ball makes this move too difficult for me to pull off.

 

Pete isn't daft though he won't give it all away for free.

[Dewdman42]

I have watched the Maude/Cowen video numerous times.   I think Cowen's teach model there is quite confusing.  My takeaway is that if you talk about spinning the right forearm down can easily lead to too much handsiness. I did obtain a 10 yard gain in my mid iron distance quite quickly when experimenting with his idea.  I attribute that mainly to the specific focus about keeping the right hand extended through impact for maximum compression.  For me that was the main take away I am trying to integrate more into my swing now, but without his "spin it down" visualization which is very misleading IMHO.

 

He is using a visual model where the arms and hands movement through space are visualized relative to the ball, rather then to the rest of the body.  I am still not sure if I like that model or not, there is remote possibility this could lead to more consistent striking perhaps since the ball is the target, but only as long as all the right mechanics are still happening to get there without getting overly active with the arms and hands, which includes:

1. As always, driving the actual "spinning" from the hip pivot, not the arms
2. closing down the face, also with hip pivot, not the hands or arms
3. If you are doing all that, then you can keep the right hand extended and also get more compression

What matters in his concept, is that we see the hands do better then keep up with the belly button rotational movement, they actually have to catch up to it since they start out in front of your right shoulder or perhaps even a little outside of that.   So there is definitely some shoulder action that needs to take place there, but its not a big shoulder "spinning" movement AT ALL.  The pinwheel spin of the right forearm is not relative to the. body at all, it's relative to the ball, as a result of mainly hip pivot...and just enough shoulder socket movement to catch the hands up with the belly button, while unfolding the right arm all the way pretty much straight down or slightly diagonally towards bellow button and keeping the right wrist extended.  Not allowing the hands to fall behind the hip rotation is for sure key..more then keep up, they need to slightly outpace the rotational speed of the hips.

 

Analyzing and trying to comprehend his video has helped me clarify some things my own way, and I am definitely motivated to gain some consistent ball compression, but myself, I found it very inconsistent to think about spinning my right arm down.  I do like the idea though of more compression and penetrating ball flight.

 

I also get what he is preaching against, in his own confusing way, which is overly handsy releases, trying to turn the hands over through impact with perfect timing, etc.  Also he was preaching against the folks that are thinking too much about their left side, working for power and trying to pull the club through.  In his view that leads to the hands falling behind and then being forced to catch up the hands too late, with flipping and other crazy things usually present.  I think his point is mainly to keep the hands up with the hip turn from the beginning, and keep the right hand extended to get that compression.  Personally I think this can still be combined with left side work to develop speed, etc, but as long as you are also attending to catching the hands up with the belly button (without ever falling behind) as the hip pivot is driving through.  call that "spinning it down" ok, but I do feel this has been a confusing video for a lot of people and me personally whenever I tried to visualize exactly what he was saying literally, I started getting more handsy, the very thing he is preaching against.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Dewdman42

[hafnia]

Update on this. I've been working on Bradley Hughes and pete cowen styles...basically tinkering round like a mad man trying to find eureka.   
 

I have moved to a stronger grip as I believe it may help me with my natural arm orientation being that palms face behind me which makes Brad Hughes method more difficult. 
 

yesterday I tried spinning the arm down and persisted with it in the nets for 30 minutes. I think I found what it is he is teaching.....

 

From the top the right elbow actively drives/uncocks (as though you are lowering a bicep curl)with the right shoulder pushing down and the forearm rotating anticlockwise  with a bent back wrist. 

for me it felt more athletic when I allowed my right leg and toes to extend through ground which I previously tried not to do cos I believe it's early extension but a Padraig Harrington video showed that as long as your right leg quad is turning into left leg then you are getting space. 
 

the most athletic way of creating the intention for me is throwing a ball as hard as I can into the ground. From that I sense the ground force and natural reaction of the body to the arms movement - it gets out the way. 
 

I was genuinely excited by the feeling of compression, it was as though the club was crushing the ball into the mat and the reaction and noise of ball was different.

 

the big test was 3 hydrid.... 225 carry 250 total off my garmin approach G80.  Repeatedly hit lovely strikes.  Next up is to see how it works with driver!

 

for a long standing flipper this has been quite revolutionary.  I just wish I understood Pete cowens spiral staircase..... 

Edited February 19, 2024 by hafnia

[hafnia]

On 2/15/2024 at 8:18 PM, Dewdman42 said:

I have watched the Maude/Cowen video numerous times.   I think Cowen's teach model there is quite confusing.  My takeaway is that if you talk about spinning the right forearm down can easily lead to too much handsiness. I did obtain a 10 yard gain in my mid iron distance quite quickly when experimenting with his idea.  I attribute that mainly to the specific focus about keeping the right hand extended through impact for maximum compression.  For me that was the main take away I am trying to integrate more into my swing now, but without his "spin it down" visualization which is very misleading IMHO.

 

He is using a visual model where the arms and hands movement through space are visualized relative to the ball, rather then to the rest of the body.  I am still not sure if I like that model or not, there is remote possibility this could lead to more consistent striking perhaps since the ball is the target, but only as long as all the right mechanics are still happening to get there without getting overly active with the arms and hands, which includes:

1. As always, driving the actual "spinning" from the hip pivot, not the arms
2. closing down the face, also with hip pivot, not the hands or arms
3. If you are doing all that, then you can keep the right hand extended and also get more compression

What matters in his concept, is that we see the hands do better then keep up with the belly button rotational movement, they actually have to catch up to it since they start out in front of your right shoulder or perhaps even a little outside of that.   So there is definitely some shoulder action that needs to take place there, but its not a big shoulder "spinning" movement AT ALL.  The pinwheel spin of the right forearm is not relative to the. body at all, it's relative to the ball, as a result of mainly hip pivot...and just enough shoulder socket movement to catch the hands up with the belly button, while unfolding the right arm all the way pretty much straight down or slightly diagonally towards bellow button and keeping the right wrist extended.  Not allowing the hands to fall behind the hip rotation is for sure key..more then keep up, they need to slightly outpace the rotational speed of the hips.

 

Analyzing and trying to comprehend his video has helped me clarify some things my own way, and I am definitely motivated to gain some consistent ball compression, but myself, I found it very inconsistent to think about spinning my right arm down.  I do like the idea though of more compression and penetrating ball flight.

 

I also get what he is preaching against, in his own confusing way, which is overly handsy releases, trying to turn the hands over through impact with perfect timing, etc.  Also he was preaching against the folks that are thinking too much about their left side, working for power and trying to pull the club through.  In his view that leads to the hands falling behind and then being forced to catch up the hands too late, with flipping and other crazy things usually present.  I think his point is mainly to keep the hands up with the hip turn from the beginning, and keep the right hand extended to get that compression.  Personally I think this can still be combined with left side work to develop speed, etc, but as long as you are also attending to catching the hands up with the belly button (without ever falling behind) as the hip pivot is driving through.  call that "spinning it down" ok, but I do feel this has been a confusing video for a lot of people and me personally whenever I tried to visualize exactly what he was saying literally, I started getting more handsy, the very thing he is preaching against.

 

just posted above.... cowen deffo struggles to communicate what he knows - not sure if it's intentionally difficult but golf is something you need to find for yourself after getting a nudge it would appear.  I think hogan was a bit like that.

 

a light bulb deffo goes off when you feel what he means by downward pressure. The efficiency in ball speed vs effort is night and day.  Got a friend who compresses the ball - actually feel the ground shudder when he hits a 4 iron.  He doesn't explain his swing but I think based on his divots and ball reaction to what look like fat shots - he hits the s£@t out of it downwards with pressure. 
 

you had any joy? 

 

[hafnia]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxa3KzmzrRrpxAMx61YsTkcvEFgrpTucS2?si=K-ZOe3N5KoJ9sDU3

 

I think Marcus Bell shows what Pete is teaching, look at the legs using the ground and the spin of the arm and the posting up on left side.  Looks like a load of freebies from one intention.

 

Same here with Padraig who I think does a great job in lots of his videos in freeing the mind of details but focusing on intentions. ( I think Harrington was coached by Cowen)