Bounce is Your Friend on Partial Wedge Shots and Engaging the Turf Prior to the Ball is a Good Thing When Hitting Them

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, cav5 said:

Sorry if not clear. Full shot is always ball first. As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight. Im

not hitting 140 yard 50s with bounce lol

But 120 you are as I recall.

[cav5]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

But 120 you are as I recall.

Yes. That’s my limit. It will vary. You might play a 46 and do more tho but I find the trajectory lower than necessary beyond 48

[GolfTurkey]

Now I really want to see someone "lay the fillet" with an Alien wedge.

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

If you open his wedge there is 40* of bounce. Buy one and measure if you must. He posted a pic of it maybe you missed it. Or do you believe vokey Ls are just 4* of bounce and in which position?

 

It also helps him engage as early as he wants as the face begins to close and bounce comes off. He can also open the face in larger and smaller amounts because he has enough at square and open

 

it’s not the only way. Most ppl won’t change but there are some who are interested. I’ve gotten better results and think others can too. I’m not some great player but can compete at a state open level. I used leading edge ball first and managed attack with my skill for years. 

 

He stated that his wedge has 40 degrees of bounce, end of statement. He didn't say when I engage my wedge it has 40 degrees of bounce.

 

  

On 1/12/2024 at 1:21 PM, Righty to Lefty said:

My C3i wedges have nearly 40 degrees of bounce and I shared a video of them at ground level that you may have overlooked. You actually do not want the leading edge to be close to the ground because that will move the strike higher on the face so it will come out dead and with no spin. Higher bounce encourages the strike to be lower on the face and this actually promotes more spin.  You are mistaken in that you think that engaging the turf behind the ball means you hit it fat on a partial wedge shot when it does not and it is actually very easy to manage.  

 

We also saw iacas post these samples from R2L's vid showing, one, he does not in fact engage the ground 6 inches behind the ball, two, he does not utilize the club with 40 degrees of bounce as you now try to shift the story to be, and three, his claimed strike position would yield a ball soaring over the green. You actually getting on Trackman so spin numbers, launch angle, AoA, and direction can be seen will tell us what you're actually doing, but clearly R2L isn't doing as he says.

 

 

Lastly, you still didn't explain what science you and R2L are using when you ignore physics, instrument measures, and 2-D/3-D imaging with your claims. I'll await your reply.

[GolfTurkey]

8 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

I asked how he knew that guy was real and I wasn’t.  I was presented with a business card that said 1992 national and world  long drive champion, Nike Tour player and Master PGA professional.  I saw the name.  He had qualified once and lost in the first round.  As far as Nike Tour player, he competed in 1 Monday qualifier and shot over 80.  He was not even in the pga program at the time, but he was 6-5 280 pounds of muscle.

 

He was handing out those business cards at every booth looking for free swag and got way more than I did…..lol.

 

Haha, I was half expecting it to be Jack Hamm for a while...that would have been perfect!

[MonteScheinblum]

13 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Haha, I was half expecting it to be Jack Hamm for a while...that would have been perfect!

I have a good Jack Hamm story too

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, cav5 said:

Sorry if not clear. Full shot is always ball first. As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight. Im

not hitting 140 yard 50s with bounce lol

This is the bit that is interesting to me, because up until now this whole clown fiesta of a topic has seemed to be centered around either fundamental misunderstandings or just outright falsehoods, but these last few posts make me feel like this might be simpler. If the phrase/concept "use/engage the bounce" is being used in a stubbornly non-standard way then it would explain everything, and it's the mention of full shots that has me thinking this. If I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread, apologies. 

As far as I have always been aware, "use/engage the bounce" has simply been either manipulating the clubhead to have more effective bounce, swinging in such a way that whatever bounce you do have is most effective, or a combination of both. In the bunker we "use the bounce" via opening the clubface to increase the club's effective bounce which affords a wider range of attack angle without digging, and more consistent/predictable results, and here we are obviously intentionally hitting behind the ball. In chips/pitches we "use the bounce" also by opening the club albeit not as much usually, but we also focus on releasing the hands and thus the clubhead through the ball to allow the camber/bounce to mimic the bottom of the swing arc and work with it, as opposed to the holding off of the wrists/release which tends to cause digging (which is sometimes needed though). Under no circumstances here are we ever intending to hit behind the ball though. Yes this overall approach gives is more forgiveness *if we do*, but that is a buffer for saving us from mistakes, not a goal for shotmaking reasons. 

So when you say:
 

Quote

"I knock the wedge open a little, enter turf a smidge before impact, play the whole system a bit further back on the arc and play a low small draw about 120"

I'd counter with guaranteeing that the club isn't "entering the turf a smidgen before impact" because for every *tiny* amount you vary in this so does your clubhead speed and thus your distance. This is kinda non-negotiable; the moment the club strikes earth the speed changes, and that variability is complete non-starter. I've caught what I call these "pro fats" with wedges where my 140y shot goes 125y because I *did* do exactly what you said; enter the ground just a fraction before impact and scrubbed off a few mph of clubhead speed before face got to ball. I'd be willing to bet your +3 handicap that in setting up the way you're talking about (face slightly open, ball slightly back, low draw shot) that what you're actually doing is just swinging much flatter with lower hands, thus decreasing your AoA, keeping the toe up so it doesn't dig, and tilting your lie angle slightly upright to aid on turning over the slightly inside path strike you've created with your setup. I *love* this shot, it's my go-to from 40-70y with my 58* especially when the ground is soft. I practice it a lot, and the club does *not* enter the turf first, it simply enters closer to impact than we're used to on full shots and I guarantee that high speed camera would confirm this. It's enabled by the longer, flatter low point created by swinging in this flatter slightly in to out manner but with the open clubface to help prevent digging. Rotation, release, and lie angle create the tiny draw, and this has long been Tiger's go to pitching drill to keep himself from getting too wipey/diggy. 

If i'm right about the above then the crux of all this is as was previously stated several times; giving people your feels as reals is irresponsible on a public forum where thousands could be reading. To hear from a +3 handicap that is shooting 60's in tournaments that you should try to enter the ground before the ball on partial wedge shots is wild, inarguably ludicrous, and definitely more than a little irresponsible. It's not what is happening, and even if it *was* it would require absolute goldilocks delivery conditions to be repeatable, and that would rendered useless given that variations in type of dirt/grass/moisture level etc etc, with no hope for your mortal soul should you try that on sticky bermuda. The fact that you're playing high level golf while doing this is not proof that it works, it's proof that you're mistaken about what "it" is and are succeeding despite that. 

[ShortGolfer]

Picking the ball cleanly off a bare lie is one of my stock shots.  I do it all the time with a lot of success.  I don't have a lot of swing speed so it helps maximize the distance I can get out of my clubs.

Remember that argument about getting the ball as close to the green as possible?  With turf or sand interaction a common miss is to swing too hard.  

Using a 54* SW helps avoid swinging too hard.  Cleanly picking the ball off the bare lie works as I  know exactly what will happen if I make the shot.

 

A lot of golf is mental.  I used to be great at chess because I knew how to get into the other guy's head.  Best compliment was someone saying I could play for money.

That translates to golf as I can often pinpoint mental mistakes and devise ways of avoiding them.

Edited January 15, 2024 by ShortGolfer

[naval2006]

This thread is slowly turning into WRX legendary.

[getitdaily]

5 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

This thread is slowly turning into WRX legendary.

And it's missing another 3 pages of content that got mixed in manzell's 90* of rotation thread. 

[swh0507]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

And it's missing another 3 pages of content that got mixed in manzell's 90* of rotation thread. 

It really is quite impressive. Every argument in the world has at least one side who completely doesn't understand the opposing side. Rarely do you have one side who not only doesn't understand the opposing side, but doesn't even understand their own side.

[cav5]

8 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

He stated that his wedge has 40 degrees of bounce, end of statement. He didn't say when I engage my wedge it has 40 degrees of bounce.

 

  

 

We also saw iacas post these samples from R2L's vid showing, one, he does not in fact engage the ground 6 inches behind the ball, two, he does not utilize the club with 40 degrees of bounce as you now try to shift the story to be, and three, his claimed strike position would yield a ball soaring over the green. You actually getting on Trackman so spin numbers, launch angle, AoA, and direction can be seen will tell us what you're actually doing, but clearly R2L isn't doing as he says.

 

 

Lastly, you still didn't explain what science you and R2L are using when you ignore physics, instrument measures, and 2-D/3-D imaging with your claims. I'll await your reply.

 

Okay but it has 40* opened. Thats your argument lol. I'm not ignoring physics. I understand how the bounce works, you do not. You and your buddies need all these models and measurements to understand physics. I get it, theirs nothing to talk about, its been there forever. You and your buddies measurements aren't even measuring the actual physics you know that right? So you're feels and reals hang line are BS anyways.

 

That other video was the start of him going down this journey figuring out he was not using the leading edge, then he took it from there. So don't know what to tell you. I have plenty of ppl interested in figuring this out in my PMs. Maybe I'll start a business!! You don't need to enter 6inches back. The only time he's doing that is flopping to a pin 15feet in front of him.

 

[cav5]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This is the bit that is interesting to me, because up until now this whole clown fiesta of a topic has seemed to be centered around either fundamental misunderstandings or just outright falsehoods, but these last few posts make me feel like this might be simpler. If the phrase/concept "use/engage the bounce" is being used in a stubbornly non-standard way then it would explain everything, and it's the mention of full shots that has me thinking this. If I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread, apologies. 

As far as I have always been aware, "use/engage the bounce" has simply been either manipulating the clubhead to have more effective bounce, swinging in such a way that whatever bounce you do have is most effective, or a combination of both. In the bunker we "use the bounce" via opening the clubface to increase the club's effective bounce which affords a wider range of attack angle without digging, and more consistent/predictable results, and here we are obviously intentionally hitting behind the ball. In chips/pitches we "use the bounce" also by opening the club albeit not as much usually, but we also focus on releasing the hands and thus the clubhead through the ball to allow the camber/bounce to mimic the bottom of the swing arc and work with it, as opposed to the holding off of the wrists/release which tends to cause digging (which is sometimes needed though). Under no circumstances here are we ever intending to hit behind the ball though. Yes this overall approach gives is more forgiveness *if we do*, but that is a buffer for saving us from mistakes, not a goal for shotmaking reasons. 

So when you say:
 

I'd counter with guaranteeing that the club isn't "entering the turf a smidgen before impact" because for every *tiny* amount you vary in this so does your clubhead speed and thus your distance. This is kinda non-negotiable; the moment the club strikes earth the speed changes, and that variability is complete non-starter. I've caught what I call these "pro fats" with wedges where my 140y shot goes 125y because I *did* do exactly what you said; enter the ground just a fraction before impact and scrubbed off a few mph of clubhead speed before face got to ball. I'd be willing to bet your +3 handicap that in setting up the way you're talking about (face slightly open, ball slightly back, low draw shot) that what you're actually doing is just swinging much flatter with lower hands, thus decreasing your AoA, keeping the toe up so it doesn't dig, and tilting your lie angle slightly upright to aid on turning over the slightly inside path strike you've created with your setup. I *love* this shot, it's my go-to from 40-70y with my 58* especially when the ground is soft. I practice it a lot, and the club does *not* enter the turf first, it simply enters closer to impact than we're used to on full shots and I guarantee that high speed camera would confirm this. It's enabled by the longer, flatter low point created by swinging in this flatter slightly in to out manner but with the open clubface to help prevent digging. Rotation, release, and lie angle create the tiny draw, and this has long been Tiger's go to pitching drill to keep himself from getting too wipey/diggy. 

If i'm right about the above then the crux of all this is as was previously stated several times; giving people your feels as reals is irresponsible on a public forum where thousands could be reading. To hear from a +3 handicap that is shooting 60's in tournaments that you should try to enter the ground before the ball on partial wedge shots is wild, inarguably ludicrous, and definitely more than a little irresponsible. It's not what is happening, and even if it *was* it would require absolute goldilocks delivery conditions to be repeatable, and that would rendered useless given that variations in type of dirt/grass/moisture level etc etc, with no hope for your mortal soul should you try that on sticky bermuda. The fact that you're playing high level golf while doing this is not proof that it works, it's proof that you're mistaken about what "it" is and are succeeding despite that. 

 

Thanks dad but no I do not drop the handle to hit draws. I can hit the same shot left to right. Handle starts closer because of where the ball is on the arc but thats not the same thing nor would it have the same result, nor do i want the heel down.

 

So what if the speed changes? It becomes a constant if its part of what you do. Its called playing the shot. I understand how that wouldn't land with this crowd. That "hiccup" in my technique produces consistent ball control. Instead of mismanaging low point and pro fatting it.

 

And lastly, for the last time you enter the ground early with the bounce.

 

[iacas]

14 hours ago, cav5 said:

This is a decent video

 

I beg to differ, as I think the video is almost completely worthless.

 

It's a pure feels video, with no measurements whatsoever. He might FEEL like he's sliding the clubhead under the ball, but he's taking divots. If it's launching the ball at 30° or so or below, he's almost surely delivering a good amount of shaft lean and -8° or more (more downward) AoA.

 

They cut away from the face-on shot every time, but I'd wager a LOT of money he's not returning the club to the ball with the shaft leaning back.

 

It's just physics. You can't spin the ball a ton when the spin loft starts to get on the other side of the mountain, past ~55°. You can hit a "high spinner" with close to 0° AoA and delivering a 55° face angle, but that ball isn't launching "low."

 

13 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Literally what science is your supposed instructor using? Literally what science are you gobbling up unquestioningly? Bro science? That I'd believe.

 

Don't you know? When his instructor flipped from playing right-handed to playing left-handed, he figured he should just do completely the opposite of the laws of physics, too. 😉

 

This wasn't made for him, but it applies way too often.

 

 

12 hours ago, cav5 said:

If you open his wedge there is 40* of bounce. Buy one and measure if you must.

 

Unless the ball is on a tee or sitting WAY up in the rough, you can't hit a shot with anything close to 40° of bounce on that club. Also, the shaft is leaning well back in that image.

 

The club has 12° of bounce. The manufacturer says so, and it makes sense. By your logic I could orient a wedge so that it has -30° of bounce, or 127°. Doesn't mean you can hit very good golf shots with those in that orientation. We measure bounce like this (not in a photo from bad angles, I'm just saying we measure bounce relative to the shaft angle):

 

 

And let's say that he's trying to say the "effective" bounce when he opens up the club. Okay, then that's still not 40°, and doing this puts the leading edge of the club above the equator of the ball.

 

Not gonna hit good golf shots there very often.

 

 

(That 28° number is not perfectly accurate because of 3D -> 2D, but I still don't think it's 40° and, even if it was… the leading edge is above the equator of the ball.)

 

12 hours ago, cav5 said:

it’s not the only way. Most ppl won’t change but there are some who are interested. I’ve gotten better results and think others can too. I’m not some great player but can compete at a state open level. I used leading edge ball first and managed attack with my skill for years. 

 

Feel ain't real.

 

12 hours ago, cav5 said:

As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight.

 

So back to the part about how some people don't understand physics… no.

 

10 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

You actually getting on Trackman so spin numbers, launch angle, AoA, and direction can be seen will tell us what you're actually doing, but clearly R2L isn't doing as he says.

 

Clearly.

 

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

If i'm right about the above then the crux of all this is as was previously stated several times; giving people your feels as reals is irresponsible on a public forum where thousands could be reading. To hear from a +3 handicap that is shooting 60's in tournaments that you should try to enter the ground before the ball on partial wedge shots is wild, inarguably ludicrous, and definitely more than a little irresponsible.

 

To say the least.

 

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The fact that you're playing high level golf while doing this is not proof that it works, it's proof that you're mistaken about what "it" is and are succeeding despite that. 

 

Well said. Also, say it with me now… #FeelAintReal

 

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

Okay but it has 40* opened.

 

See above. Likely still doesn't, and whatever that number is, it's not going to produce a usable shot hitting the ball in the forehead (or even if the ground is a bit softer, a dimple or two below the equator).

 

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

I'm not ignoring physics.

…

(earlier): As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight.

 

I beg to differ.

 

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

You and your buddies measurements aren't even measuring the actual physics you know that right? So you're feels and reals hang line are BS anyways.

 

I don't know if I've ever seen someone claim so much that "my feels are accurate, your tested, measured, verified physics are not," but there you have it.

 

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

I have plenty of ppl interested in figuring this out in my PMs.

 

Love when people say stuff like this! Ha.

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

So what if the speed changes? It becomes a constant if its part of what you do.

 

No, it'd require the same exact turf conditions on all shots. It adds a variable. Softer turf, firmer turf, more or less grass… all variables that you don't need to worry about as much if you're hitting the ball first, not trying to figure out how much speed is going to be scrubbed from the clubhead when it hits the ground before it hits the ball.

 

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

And lastly, for the last time you enter the ground early with the bounce.

 

I'm with the others, too: let's see some launch monitor data on a golf course. Let's see five each of these types of shots (others can modify this list as needed; this is just off the top of my head):

• 120-yard wedge
• 90-yard wedge
• 70-yard wedge
• 30-yard high pitch (not quite a flop)
• 25-yard low spinner (launch < 30°)

Let's see decent video from face-on of each (HD slow mo is easy to make), with the LM numbers for each.

[cav5]

I didn't read any of that. I'm out tho, PM me if need help.

[JayMas]

3 hours ago, swh0507 said:

It really is quite impressive. Every argument in the world has at least one side who completely doesn't understand the opposing side. Rarely do you have one side who not only doesn't understand the opposing side, but doesn't even understand their own side.

Laughed out loud, for real.

Edited January 15, 2024 by JayMas

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, cav5 said:

I didn't read any of that. I'm out tho, PM me if need help.

 

I'd wager that you did, but since you can't probably can't formulate a good response, you had to pretend that you didn't see it. No worries, though, as everyone else can read it and see that you and your buddy are full of 💩.

 

🙈🙉

 

Can't add the third monkey because you've been doing a fair amount of "speaking" on the subject.

 

Edited January 15, 2024 by iacas
Hit enter too soon.

[Sean124]

33 minutes ago, cav5 said:

I didn't read any of that. I'm out tho, PM me if need help.

It’s simple. Prove you’re doing what you say you’re doing with slo-mo video and launch monitor numbers. 
 

Surely you’d like to back up your claims with evidence, right?

[jonsnow]

31 minutes ago, JayMas said:

Laughed out loud, for real.

[Pepperturbo]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

That truly is amazing.  I’ve never seen a wedge lower the leading edge when you open it. If that is the case how are you engaging the sole to use the bounce?

I had a custom set of MacGregor 1025MB's built for me, in early 2k, including two different styles of 2 iron, and 3 to LW.  The LW is 60', with 2' of bounce and a wide sole, when opened flat, the sharp leading edge nearly sets on the ground.  

[jonsnow]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:52 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

 

Yes, he was a +2 and this is what happened after I taught him impact is all that matters and just have slow smooth temp.

Glad I wasn't in the group with the next tee time.

[PedronNiall]

4 hours ago, cav5 said:

 

Okay but it has 40* opened. Thats your argument lol. I'm not ignoring physics. I understand how the bounce works, you do not. You and your buddies need all these models and measurements to understand physics. I get it, theirs nothing to talk about, its been there forever. You and your buddies measurements aren't even measuring the actual physics you know that right? So you're feels and reals hang line are BS anyways.

 

That other video was the start of him going down this journey figuring out he was not using the leading edge, then he took it from there. So don't know what to tell you. I have plenty of ppl interested in figuring this out in my PMs. Maybe I'll start a business!! You don't need to enter 6inches back. The only time he's doing that is flopping to a pin 15feet in front of him.

 

Okay, but he said the club has 40 degrees of bounce, period. He's wrong.

 

No, we need models and measures to verify the physics because we don't live in the world of Bro Science that you and R2L do. We like to live in the world of what's actually happening, not what we pretend is happening.

 

We all certainly know you don't need nor want to enter 6 inches behind the ball, but that's what your Bro Science compatriot claimed he was doing in the video that he posted, yet it is not at all what he was doing.

 

I wonder if there's a reason he's chosen not to respond directly to the call outs on his actual engagement point with the turf or the actual specs of his wedge. He's replied to said call outs, but he's yet to refute the facts showing him to be wrong. You also have replied with moving goalposts and tangents but seem unable to admit he's factually incorrect. Maybe you two are actually twins separated at birth and not just friends? It would explain a lot.

 

I'm sure you won't read this either as it appears reality is too damaging to your beliefs for you to engage in real discussion anymore, but it'd be nice if you were adult enough to stop trying to spread farce as fact and keep your golf magic in your own head where it belongs.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I had a custom set of MacGregor 1025MB's built for me, in early 2k, including two different styles of 2 iron, and 3 to LW.  The LW is 60', with 2' of bounce and a wide sole, when opened flat, the sharp leading edge nearly sets on the ground.  

Yes, but that’s completely different than what I posted. Yours is 2° bounce and when opened the leading edge is nearly on the ground….because it has very little bounce. 
 

The post I replied to said a wedge with substantial bounce the leading edge GOT LOWER when opened.  Wrap your head around that! 🤔

[GolfTurkey]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I beg to differ, as I think the video is almost completely worthless.

 

It's a pure feels video, with no measurements whatsoever.

 

 

Beat me to it. No face on where you could judge if it was ball first contact and there was some serious peltage taking place (one shot in particular left ample room for a chihuahua coffin).

 

If these guys used a LM, I bet it would show that this guy has to lean the handle back at address and feel like he's throwing the right hand so he's -10 instead of -20 or something like that.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I'd wager that you did, but since you can't probably can't formulate a good response, you had to pretend that you didn't see it. No worries, though, as everyone else can read it and see that you and your buddy are full of 💩.

 

🙈🙉

 

Can't add the third monkey because you've been doing a fair amount of "speaking" on the subject.

 

You may have missed his responses to me on the bottom of the previous page. He also claimed on his wedge the leading edge got closer to the ground when he opened the face….and now shot go lower when he adds bounce.  
I don’t see how that happens unless you blade it….which may be the answer.🤣

[Shilgy]

28 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Beat me to it. No face on where you could judge if it was ball first contact and there was some serious peltage taking place (one shot in particular left ample room for a chihuahua coffin).

 

If these guys used a LM, I bet it would show that this guy has to lean the handle back at address and feel like he's throwing the right hand so he's -10 instead of -20 or something like that.

All that would show is how he hits it lower.😏

 

Ive heard golf is a game of opposites so does that mean adding loft lowers ball flight?🙄

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You may have missed his responses to me on the bottom of the previous page. He also claimed on his wedge the leading edge got closer to the ground when he opened the face….and now shot go lower when he adds bounce.  
I don’t see how that happens unless you blade it….which may be the answer.🤣

 

Blades do go lower!

 

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Ive heard golf is a game of opposites so does that mean adding loft lowers ball flight?🙄

 

@cav5 thinks so:

 

19 hours ago, cav5 said:

As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight.

[GolfTurkey]

If you open up an Alien wedge you'll definitely lower the flight...that sucker will sit so far above the equator of the ball.

[Lobby]

What struck me about this thread wasn’t the internet squabble, but the post #1, where it seemed the OP was explaining how to do a chip shot off thin grass by using the bounce. 
 

I now understand he wasn’t, but would the technique apply for chip shots?

[JayMas]

23 hours ago, cav5 said:

Sorry if not clear. Full shot is always ball first. As you open and remove lean you will lower the flight. Im

not hitting 140 yard 50s with bounce lol

How could you lower ball flight by opening the face and losing shaft lean which delofts the club, unless you blade it?