Bounce is Your Friend on Partial Wedge Shots and Engaging the Turf Prior to the Ball is a Good Thing When Hitting Them

[swh0507]

4 minutes ago, jholz said:

Can anyone tell me what problem @cav5 is trying to solve in this thread? 

 

I mean, seriously, if you aren't routinely hitting your wedges well and close to the hole - what are you even doing on the course?

 

This is bush league... 🙂 

 

 

Wait, I thought we were all trying to hit the DIVOTS close to the hole with this technique?

[jonsnow]

30 minutes ago, jholz said:

Can anyone tell me what problem @cav5 is trying to solve in this thread? 

 

I mean, seriously, if you aren't routinely hitting your wedges well and close to the hole - what are you even doing on the course?

 

This is bush league... 🙂 

 

 

I'm not sure but I believe it has something to do with torque...

[MattC555]

11 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

I'm not sure but I believe it has something to do with torque...

 

Torque?  I thought he said twerk.  Crap I've been doing it all wrong.

[getitdaily]

30 minutes ago, jholz said:

Can anyone tell me what problem @cav5 is trying to solve in this thread? 

 

I mean, seriously, if you aren't routinely hitting your wedges well and close to the hole - what are you even doing on the course?

 

This is bush league... 🙂 

 

 

He was a terrible short game guy until he met r2l. R2L taught him the wizardry of hitting 6 inches behind the ball and it changed cav5's life.  So he's here to support the notion that everyone should hit wedge shots 6 inches behind the ball and there's no reason to play them differently. 

 

He and r2l be like 

 

 

 

[jonsnow]

12 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

Torque?  I thought he said twerk.  Crap I've been doing it all wrong.

 

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

He was a terrible short game guy until he met r2l. R2L taught him the wizardry of hitting 6 inches behind the ball and it changed cav5's life.  So he's here to support the notion that everyone should hit wedge shots 6 inches behind the ball and there's no reason to play them differently. 

 

He and r2l be like 

 

 

 

 

 

Buddy:  "You sit on a throne of lies!"

[TexanIIDriver]

12 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

 

Now we're getting somewhere in this discussion..

[dwboston]

1 hour ago, swh0507 said:

Wait, I thought we were all trying to hit the DIVOTS close to the hole with this technique?

 

If you don't have divot tracer turned on in your GC Quad/Trackman settings during practice sessions, then what are you even doing? 

[CSagan]

I tried Monte's powerchunk today. Thats actually a legit shot. Who knew?

 

@MonteScheinblum Weight a hair forward and hit it kinda like a bunker shot? Open face

[getitdaily]

10 minutes ago, CSagan said:

I tried Monte's powerchunk today. Thats actually a legit shot. Who knew?

 

@MonteScheinblum Weight a hair forward and hit it kinda like a bunker shot? Open face

Yep. It's a very functional shot for certain specific situations. Off the top of my head

 

- soppy lie and you're short sided

- soft conditions and the course isn't in great shape. Think of soft and lots of weeds, grass, dirt mashed together and you don't have a lot of room to hit it short and run yhe ball up

- super tight lie and you need to carry a bunker to a fairly tight pin

 

I've used that shot for each of those situations. It's not a shot where you're expecting to hit it close. You're looking to get a reasonable look at making the par save (or birdie conversion on a par 5).

[Gsea]

@cav5 you must be in Florida by now.  How a bout that 100yd shot hitting 2-6 in behind the ball. And if you really are going to make it face on so we can see the strike

[CSagan]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Yep. It's a very functional shot for certain specific situations. Off the top of my head

 

- soppy lie and you're short sided

- soft conditions and the course isn't in great shape. Think of soft and lots of weeds, grass, dirt mashed together and you don't have a lot of room to hit it short and run yhe ball up

- super tight lie and you need to carry a bunker to a fairly tight pin

 

I've used that shot for each of those situations. It's not a shot where you're expecting to hit it close. You're looking to get a reasonable look at making the par save (or birdie conversion on a par 5).

yeah we got like 6 inches of rain past 3 days I was out in yard hitting it in those types of lies. Pops up nice and is fairly controllable. 

[getitdaily]

12 minutes ago, CSagan said:

yeah we got like 6 inches of rain past 3 days I was out in yard hitting it in those types of lies. Pops up nice and is fairly controllable. 

Yeah, it comes out kind of dead with not much spin. Just hard to judge the landing spot.

[Geomane]

1 hour ago, CSagan said:

I tried Monte's powerchunk today. Thats actually a legit shot. Who knew?

 

@MonteScheinblum Weight a hair forward and hit it kinda like a bunker shot? Open face

I’m also trying this next time I play. I’m all for trying different shot types in crappy lies. 

[rooski]

5 hours ago, jonsnow said:

 

 

EDIT: actually im not going to say that cause it could get me banned and I really want to test one of those L.A.B putters lol

Edited January 26, 2024 by rooski

[DShepley]

17 hours ago, swh0507 said:

Wait, I thought we were all trying to hit the DIVOTS close to the hole with this technique?

FAT DUMPS!

[cav5]

16 hours ago, jonsnow said:

I'm not sure but I believe it has something to do with torque...

 

Kinda but you don't really have to understand any of that. The point of the shaft lean stuff was to provide some visual cues on handling the club based on which pieces are torquing, driving, whatever you want to use, and how they will impact the options you have at contact, leading edge or turf first.

 

Someone posted a rebuttal pic of Hogan way before his prime. That action isn't close to what he eventually ends up with. The 5L pic has very little shaft lean. I'd call that zero. And like the picture I used by the time the club gets to the ball its going to be below his hands. Hogan wants the club to pass his hands. The fact its so close but he can't get it past is literally perfection from a motion standpoint.

 

Someone like Rory though the club is going to run into the ground too soon unless he adds shaft lean. Instead of moving his pivot at one speed which is ideal he has to speed it up to get the club moving more horizontal into the strike. The problem with that now is had to take momentum off the clubhead and into the handle in order to re-route the clubhead to manage the strike. Now the pivot must continue to speed up as the head is no longer the distal speed element in the swing. Its been caged by the handle and pivot drive which now requires the lean.

 

So yes its much harder to get into the turf early this way because

1. you'll need lots of bounce

2. the amount of speed/effort required is going to feel like much more compared to hogan

3. hogan is having an easier time moving the clubhead relatively harder and faster and at better angles than rorys. Rory having taken steam out of the head and adding pivot acceleration which will transfer to the handle travel first giving him the lean but also requiring more effort as hogan built in the speed for the head from the start. Rory will have to guess how much pivot acceleration he'll need to keep the club moving through the turf.

 

I get some of you think i'm just talking BS but there are ppl who've message me that are interested so its for them.

 

Not in FL yet. Early next week as long as work monday doesn't blow up. My buddies are already there. But there might be a soggy day here Saturday that I try to play.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:56 PM, iacas said:

 

Same tactics as usual… you don't read all of what is said to you. I have said several times that I also teach that shot. Nobody's said that you can't hit a short game shot by using the bounce or glide. Straw man.

 

 

We don't strive to hit 6" behind a golf ball except when we're hitting four or five golf balls off a mat. A mat is not grass or turf.

 

 

Once again, you did not. It may have been your intent, but you did not.

 

 

 

Again, that's not how anyone measures bounce, and if it was per the picture posted earlier, the leading edge is above the equator of the ball:

 

 

Also, I'm not sure why that "c-word" is in quotes as if to imply that I said that. I have not. I searched the previous pages for the first five letters of that word and found nothing.

 

 

Which, as has been pointed out several times by several people, is how you measure bounce. Your wedge has a ridiculously wide sole with 12° of bounce.

 

 

This is one of the places where you go wrong. The two main issues I and others have had in this whole topic are:

• The Bounce Boys insistence that it be used EVERYWHERE for ALL shots, including 70 yards, 90 yards, even 120 yards.
• The Bounce Boys insistence that you "engage the turf" as far as six inches behind the ball.

There are a lot of other smaller points, and nearly countless things you two (the Bounce Boys) have gotten wrong. Your boy @cav5 didn't do you any favors… but I will say that you two were seemingly made for one another, as you employ the same tactics.

 

 

Good luck forcing the club to continue down toward that low point.

 

The flop shot I hit off hardpan? Guess what… it didn't "engage the turf before the ball." If it had, it would have bounced into the ball and it'd have been bladed. I had to hit it pretty much at the ball. The point of the video was to demonstrate that you can still hit a high soft shot with a wedge that has 22° of bounce off hardpan. That shot didn't engage turf with the bounce prior to impact. I timed it well, as I can do, and hit the ball and turf at the same time.

 

 

To be clear: no, you can't. The club is likely to bounce into the ball because you can't make the "low point in front of the ball" if you're hitting "anywhere behind the ball."

 

 

Your demonstrations don't mean much when you insist you "engaged the turf" behind the ball despite what we can all see.

 

Here's a full refund.

 

 

P.S. Stop replying to me, please. Stop quoting, everything. The both of you are not worthy opponents. You're intellectually dishonest, you don't read what's said (or at least reply to what's said…), and it's all just very scummy. I'm down for a good faith discussion on anything instructionally related. You two don't discuss in anything approaching good faith. You misrepresent, shift goalposts, ignore statements and posts, etc.

 

I said as much that I can't hit a flop shot off a tile floor with the face wide open in the video that I posted stating that leading edge will be above the equator of the ball but I still have plenty of room to use the bounce off a tile floor and demonstrate that in a different video, both of which you probably didn't watch.

 

I also find it amazing your bounce measurement is somehow more accurate than mine being that the angle the photo was taken from, but sure you got it, I mean the angle isnt' even measured from the trailing edge in your angle measure tool. Bounce is measured from where trailing edge touches the ground to the leading edge...but you already knew that. I can post a photo of my wedge next to a 45 degree speed square if that will make you feel better. 

 

 

 You also know how I know I engaged the turf behind the ball on the shot I hit in Abu Dhabi....cause I f-ing hit the shot, and prior to that I said please film me hitting this shot because I want to see what happens when I hit the ground behind the ball. I know how it feels like to hit the ball first then turf as I've done it plenty of times in my life. I also know what it feels like to hit a shot fat and that is precisely what I did on that shot on purpose.  The less I open the face, the closer I sole the wedge next to the ball, but it doesn't matter because you gonna tell me not only is feel not real, but real isn't real either. 

 

Then be gone...go back to your sandtrap website.  You are not down for a good faith discussion because you make a living selling golf instruction and I don't agree with your teaching method. You are up in the thread that I created and are more than welcome to take your ball and go home because you aren't up in here trying to mentor passionate golfers, you are trying to gain students. I mean you kicked me off your site and now you over here being rude and disrespectful to someone that doesn't agree with you.  I wish you all the best and hope all your students go pro and are scratch or better even though I disagree with your teaching method.  You really not gonna like the thread that I start tomorrow about putting and even though you said you are gonna go away, I know you will be back.  

Edited January 28, 2024 by Righty to Lefty

[GolfTurkey]

35 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

Then be gone...go back to your sandtrap website.   

[iacas]

There you go @Righty to Lefty ruining what had become an all-time topic.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I said as much that I can't hit a flop shot off a tile floor with the face wide open in the video that I posted stating that leading edge will be above the equator of the ball but I still have plenty of room to use the bounce off a tile floor and demonstrate that in a different video, both of which you probably didn't watch.

 

Unlike you, I read/watch everything (you ignore anything you don't like). The firmer the ground, the shorter the distance you can safely hit behind the ball decreases. I don't even need physics to defend that point. You're not hitting 1" behind the ball off concrete and hitting a good shot very often.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also find it amazing your bounce measurement is somehow more accurate than mine being that the angle the photo was taken from, but sure you got it

 

I didn't say it was more accurate. I said it wasn't 45°, and even at whatever angle that is, the bounce presents an unusable leading edge height unless hit out of the fluffiest of rough or sand or something.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

That your counter-argument shows a clubface literally pointing BACKWARD is true chef's kiss stuff.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Bounce is measured from where trailing edge touches the ground to the leading edge...but you already knew that.

 

You left off "when the club shaft is vertical." The club has 12° of bounce. You can change the effective bounce.

 

But here's some truth: in light of the ridiculous proof above, with a backward pointing clubface… I'm willing to concede that you've been trying to say "effective bounce" this whole time. There, you can have "my wedge has 45° of effective bounce when it also has like 94° of loft. Cool?

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

You also know how I know I engaged the turf behind the ball on the shot I hit in Abu Dhabi....cause I f-ing hit the shot, and prior to that I said please film me hitting this shot because I want to see what happens when I hit the ground behind the ball.

 

#FeelAintReal

 

Buddy, I dunno what to tell you. The video doesn't show it.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also know what it feels like to hit a shot fat and that is precisely what I did on that shot on purpose.

 

Nobody here can debate what you "feel" or think you feel.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

you gonna tell me not only is feel not real, but real isn't real either. 

 

Yeah, I've never said that.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are not down for a good faith discussion

 

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I don't agree with your teaching method

 

Have you read the many times I have said that I teach a lot of people to use the bounce? It's just not:

• on every shot
• up to 6" behind the ball
• with a wedge that has 45° of bounce and 94° of loft
• not on shots from 120 yards (or even 70 yards)
• etc.

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

you are trying to gain students

 

No. Just trying to share information, bud. Really, the same as you, except that I know what I'm talking about more often.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I mean you kicked me off your site

 

You continue to prove that to be a wise decision. (And actually that wasn't me — I abstain from all decisions with people like you. We've had some really great people who have been mods for a long time.)

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

someone that doesn't agree with you

 

… or, you know, reality. Physics. Math. Etc.

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I wish you all the best and hope all your students go pro and are scratch or better even though I disagree with your teaching method.

 

You don't have the faintest clue what my "teaching method" is. If I could, before submitting, I'd quote myself from this very post: I teach a lot of people to use the bounce. I generally prefer it around the greens myself.

 

Take care and be well.

 

Yippee Ki Yay

[cav5]

Well said R2L. Experts need to expert!

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

On 1/25/2024 at 2:18 PM, CSagan said:

I tried Monte's powerchunk today. Thats actually a legit shot. Who knew?

 

@MonteScheinblum Weight a hair forward and hit it kinda like a bunker shot? Open face

Nice

[TexanIIDriver]

14 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

 

 

Bob Vokey rn..

 

[bortass]

How much bounce do I need on my driver to make this technique work off the tee?

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, bortass said:

How much bounce do I need on my driver to make this technique work off the tee?

 

Max tee height is 4" so…

[Shilgy]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Max tee height is 4" so…

And you can hit the ground 6” behind the ball so….

C3i driver on the way to market.😎

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

And you can hit the ground 6” behind the ball so….

C3i driver on the way to market.😎

 

Their loft will be measured in the negative. That way, when you open it up to get all that extra bounce, you can get 10° or so of effective loft to go along with your, what, 60° of effective bounce?

 

Plus, if you've got a ball hovering on a lily pad from like 260 out… driver off the deck pad! That extra bounce will just SKIM the water like a waterskier. Or is it like cracking a whip? I can't keep the bad analogies straight.

[swh0507]

17 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I said as much that I can't hit a flop shot off a tile floor with the face wide open in the video that I posted stating that leading edge will be above the equator of the ball but I still have plenty of room to use the bounce off a tile floor and demonstrate that in a different video, both of which you probably didn't watch.

 

I also find it amazing your bounce measurement is somehow more accurate than mine being that the angle the photo was taken from, but sure you got it, I mean the angle isnt' even measured from the trailing edge in your angle measure tool. Bounce is measured from where trailing edge touches the ground to the leading edge...but you already knew that. I can post a photo of my wedge next to a 45 degree speed square if that will make you feel better. 

 

 

 You also know how I know I engaged the turf behind the ball on the shot I hit in Abu Dhabi....cause I f-ing hit the shot, and prior to that I said please film me hitting this shot because I want to see what happens when I hit the ground behind the ball. I know how it feels like to hit the ball first then turf as I've done it plenty of times in my life. I also know what it feels like to hit a shot fat and that is precisely what I did on that shot on purpose.  The less I open the face, the closer I sole the wedge next to the ball, but it doesn't matter because you gonna tell me not only is feel not real, but real isn't real either. 

 

Then be gone...go back to your sandtrap website.  You are not down for a good faith discussion because you make a living selling golf instruction and I don't agree with your teaching method. You are up in the thread that I created and are more than welcome to take your ball and go home because you aren't up in here trying to mentor passionate golfers, you are trying to gain students. I mean you kicked me off your site and now you over here being rude and disrespectful to someone that doesn't agree with you.  I wish you all the best and hope all your students go pro and are scratch or better even though I disagree with your teaching method.  You really not gonna like the thread that I start tomorrow about putting and even though you said you are gonna go away, I know you will be back.  

You must be the most over confident 5 HC I have ever seen, I'll give you that. I am a 2 and would never claim to have all the shots and be able to execute everything on command like you say you can. 

 

Maybe if you actually listened to someone other than yourself or your echo chamber buddy, you could improve on that HC.

[MonteScheinblum]

39 minutes ago, swh0507 said:

You must be the most over confident 5 HC I have ever seen, I'll give you that. I am a 2 and would never claim to have all the shots and be able to execute everything on command like you say you can. 

 

Maybe if you actually listened to someone other than yourself or your echo chamber buddy, you could improve on that HC.

I’m a tournament plus handicap and all I talk about is how many different things I struggle with.

 

I struggle with driver

Need to get better with wedges

Get a little nervy on tight lie pitches 

Don’t make near enough putts from 10-20 feet

Edited January 29, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[Avidswampthing66]

Bounce is your friend out of the bunker.  

A normal pitch or chip, yes I open the blade some and I do use the bounce but only after I make contact with the ball.  The only way I'm bouncing into the ball is by accidentally blading it.   Chipping is not an exact science.  There are different shots and different methods for a variety of grasses and outcomes.  The short game is my favorite part of the game and though, I think you have good intentions, you do not have the skill set to make such bold claims.  Two professionals have addressed this.  Just not sure what you're trying to do here.