Bounce is Your Friend on Partial Wedge Shots and Engaging the Turf Prior to the Ball is a Good Thing When Hitting Them

[cav5]

The cut leg tight green side chip getitdaily can’t hit to cover rough to tight flag

 

 

 

 

[cav5]

13 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Literally no other productive conversation can happen in this thread until this happens, because i'd bet my irresponsibly hoarded staff bag full of golf shafts that the *actual* data would show what everyone that wants to see data has been yelling about and would cause a severe goal post shift in the conversation. Hell, *I* might do the slow motion video experiment because my local practice facility has the perfect setup for it. 

50-70 lol that’s easy. Atleast at 120 I’m close to the brink of torquing it too much. You’ve never hit a 40 yard bunker shot with a 9 iron? You really think I can’t that with a 54* from

the fairway? Ok!

[getitdaily]

52 minutes ago, cav5 said:

The cut leg tight green side chip getitdaily can’t hit to cover rough to tight flag

 

IMG_2925.mov 6.81 MB · 1 download  

 

 

 

Lol. That shot went 3 yards. 

 

#1 - if that shot is from the rough then it's quite simple 

 

#2 - if that shot is from a tight lie then there is no rough to cover and a shot that short has about 1000% more chance of getting.close with a bump and run or a putt. If into bermuda grain then it's a hybrid "putt". 

 

You're describing a shot that is very different than your carpet nonsense. 

 

I'll put my short game up against yours anytime you want, bug guy.

Edited January 20, 2024 by getitdaily

[cav5]

 

 

[cav5]

17 hours ago, sandyraps said:

 

I might, maybe.    Looks like equal angular momentum on both ends.  

 

 

[jonsnow]

[cav5]

51 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Lol. That shot went 3 yards. 

 

#1 - if that shot is from the rough then it's quite simple 

 

#2 - if that shot is from a tight lie then there is no rough to cover and a shot that short has about 1000% more chance of getting.close with a bump and run or a putt. If into bermuda grain then it's a hybrid "putt". 

 

You're describing a shot that is very different than your carpet nonsense. 

 

I'll put my short game up against yours anytime you want, bug guy.

Do you need to see me hit it 10 yards? Because its way easier to go a bit faster on that shot lol. Pretty sure I would of executed that perfectly and just made it more difficult being shorter. any takers?

 

[getitdaily]

23 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Do you need to see me hit it 10 yards? Because its way easier to go a bit faster on that shot lol. Pretty sure I would of executed that perfectly and just made it more difficult being shorter. any takers?

 

Nope. But what I described in the post you captured is the way to play whatever you're trying to do.

[cav5]

I'll make sure to take that advice. Gotta be tough to see that lol. Must land ball on fringe lol. I'll just give myself the 2 yards to land it its not rolling more than 4 feet.

[Primo1868]

can we please lock this thread? I need to actually work

[getitdaily]

23 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

can we please lock this thread? I need to actually work

Chanel has a new cologne you should try....

 

Self Control, for men. Eau de toilette.

[vman]

Some golden nuggets in here.😉

[nikegolfer93]

Doesn't Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey @13:24 say exactly the opposite of what some you are advocating for?

[cav5]

1 hour ago, nikegolfer93 said:

Doesn't Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey @13:24 say exactly the opposite of what some you are advocating for?

No with those basic shots you want to use ball first lol. I know because I have trackmans bounce1st edition

[iacas]

6 hours ago, cav5 said:

50-70 lol that’s easy. Atleast at 120 I’m close to the brink of torquing it too much. You’ve never hit a 40 yard bunker shot with a 9 iron? You really think I can’t that with a 54* from

the fairway? Ok!

 

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. You have no idea what a video showing you kicking the handle out from the club demonstrates, or how it applies to a short game shot. Go ahead and try to explain it — you can't, because it doesn't make any actual sense — it's not something you do in an actual short game shot (or any other shot).

 

And again: Nobody is saying you can't hit a 3- or a 10-yard shot by using the bounce. They are pointing out that you don't hit 50-yard shots, or 120-yard shots, hitting 6, 4, or even 1 inch behind the ball.

 

They are saying that you don't even hit ALL of your short game shots from inside of that 50 yards by "using the bounce" and hitting the ground first before you hit the ball.

 

They are also saying that you've gotten several basic things dead wrong:

• opening up the face and/or exposing more bounce doesn't lower the shot.
• the wedge doesn't have 40° of bounce
• hitting the ball lower on the face doesn't appreciably change the spin generated (it does on a driver, but it doesn't on a wedge because of geometry, CoG locations, shaft length/gear effect magnitude, etc.).
• You don't generate max spin — you can stop the ball with trajectory, yes — when you open the spin loft up and get on the other side of the mountain.

Even in the videos you're posting, you're not hitting anywhere near even 2" behind the ball, let alone 6". And let's call 6" a massive exaggeration — you're still bottoming out in front of the ball, hitting down with forward shaft lean, and contacting the ball at the earliest at the same time as you get into the ground, which is different than the tops of the grass or carpet.

 

I'm not a hater. I'm a guy who understands the physics, and can spot a bullshitter when I see one.

 

I teach people to use the bounce on some shots around the greens. I've got video of me hitting a wedge with legit 22° of bounce off almost hardpan… Your videos don't do anything to illuminate anything other than that you don't really know what you're talking about.

[nikegolfer93]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. You have no idea what a video showing you kicking the handle out from the club demonstrates, or how it applies to a short game shot. Go ahead and try to explain it — you can't, because it doesn't make any actual sense — it's not something you do in an actual short game shot (or any other shot).

 

And again: Nobody is saying you can't hit a 3- or a 10-yard shot by using the bounce. They are pointing out that you don't hit 50-yard shots, or 120-yard shots, hitting 6, 4, or even 1 inch behind the ball.

 

They are saying that you don't even hit ALL of your short game shots from inside of that 50 yards by "using the bounce" and hitting the ground first before you hit the ball.

 

They are also saying that you've gotten several basic things dead wrong:

• opening up the face and/or exposing more bounce doesn't lower the shot.
• the wedge doesn't have 40° of bounce
• hitting the ball lower on the face doesn't appreciably change the spin generated (it does on a driver, but it doesn't on a wedge because of geometry, CoG locations, shaft length/gear effect magnitude, etc.).
• You don't generate max spin — you can stop the ball with trajectory, yes — when you open the spin loft up and get on the other side of the mountain.

Even in the videos you're posting, you're not hitting anywhere near even 2" behind the ball, let alone 6". And let's call 6" a massive exaggeration — you're still bottoming out in front of the ball, hitting down with forward shaft lean, and contacting the ball at the earliest at the same time as you get into the ground, which is different than the tops of the grass or carpet.

 

I'm not a hater. I'm a guy who understands the physics, and can spot a bullshitter when I see one.

 

I teach people to use the bounce on some shots around the greens. I've got video of me hitting a wedge with legit 22° of bounce off almost hardpan… Your videos don't do anything to illuminate anything other than that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but can you address the Billy Horschel video I posted above?

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, nikegolfer93 said:

Doesn't Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey @13:24 say exactly the opposite of what some you are advocating for?

Per what @iacas stated above, that is exactly the "use the bounce" type of technique for pitches around the green that is totally fine. It's the insistence that this *same* technique is used on fuller to full shots which is ridiculous. 

[cav5]

You’re right I’ve only self taught myself from a 4 to plus 4 at one point. I haven’t spent thousands of hours reading and learning and applying. I just stumbled upon everything. 

 

im sure the 7k reading this thread are not interested in my spewing lol. If you understood math you realize that bounce is more a science than you’re projecting. It doesn’t fail if the inputs are correct. You 100% can hit 6in behind the ball if the loft bounce yardage and turf give allow for it. Just like you can only hit so far up on driver if the spin allows it. 
 

you are much better off with more bounce than you’ll need and taking it off. Your window of shallow to steep becomes huge and you pick up consistency without the big error. Your goal is to break even on each shot worst case scenario. And capitalize on the good ones. 
 

same with trading. I could show you how to measure velocity of price to time acceleration to volume to trap equity markets. Picking tops and bottoms don’t make winners. Taking the meat after a bottom through to the top and exiting after that top becomes a sell does. Never getting it all is winning. Of course you need the tools to do that. They aren’t in Harvard business books or online. 
 

you’re buddy getitdaily is gonna hit backfoot 60s to fringe spots to tight flags. But if it’s all you know I get it. 
 

You think Kelly slater can’t keep his nose up on a 50’footer because the wave gets steeper or an experienced boater can get a 22 footer thru a storm? No it’s fear because you have doubt. 

Edited January 20, 2024 by cav5

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, cav5 said:

You’re right I’ve only self taught myself from a 4 to plus 4 at one point. I haven’t spent thousands of hours reading and learning and applying. I just stumbled upon everything.

 

Who has said that? You sure do seem to love your straw men.

 

The fact is that you say a lot of stuff, and your pal says a lot of stuff, that's provably wrong. Factually incorrect. Demonstrably incorrect.

 

4 minutes ago, cav5 said:

im sure the 7k reading this thread are not interested in my spewing lol. If you understood math you realize that bounce is more a science than you’re projecting.

 

My understanding of math is not the issue.

 

Here's another issue: when you're not saying factually incorrect things, you're saying things like this: stuff that really has no merit, and/or doesn't make any sense. What are you actually saying here? You're just adding words, but not actually saying anything.

 

4 minutes ago, cav5 said:

It doesn’t fail if the inputs are correct. You 100% can hit 6in behind the ball if the loft bounce yardage and turf give allow for it.

 

Once again: nobody's denied that. I've recorded videos pitching off hardpan with a wedge that has 22° of bounce. I've recorded videos where you can hit four or even five balls all on one swing by using the "glide" or bounce to glide the club along the ground.

 

 

You don't even know who or what you're arguing against.

 

Here's the thing, though: you can pitch five balls off of a forgiving mat with a gel insert. Good luck doing that — hitting a shot where you engage the TURF (not the tops of the grass) six inches behind the ball. That's really rare.

 

On a mat? Or carpet? Maybe. But… you're not anywhere close to even 3" behind the balls you're demonstrating, because there's not a bunch of soft padding beneath.

 

4 minutes ago, cav5 said:

you are much better off with more bounce than you’ll need and taking it off.

 

Again, you don't even know who or what you're arguing against. Again, I've hit flop shots off near hardpan with a wedge that has 22° of bounce. I've demonstrating hitting it off cart paths. But you're damn sure I'm hitting REALLy close to the ball, because the bounce on any wedge is not going to "slide" along the ground with cement/blacktop/concrete beneath. You're hitting as close to the ball — or slightly ball first — as you can.

 

And from 70 yards, or 90 yards, or 120 yards… you're not hitting even 1" behind the ball let alone 6. You're trying to hit ball first almost every time.

 

4 minutes ago, cav5 said:

same with trading

…

You think Kelly slater can’t keep his nose up on a 50’footer because the wave gets steeper or an experienced boater can get a 22 footer thru a storm?

 

More nonsense.

[getitdaily]

13 minutes ago, cav5 said:

You’re right I’ve only self taught myself from a 4 to plus 4 at one point. I haven’t spent thousands of hours reading and learning and applying. I just stumbled upon everything. 

 

im sure the 7k reading this thread are not interested in my spewing lol. If you understood math you realize that bounce is more a science than you’re projecting. It doesn’t fail if the inputs are correct. You 100% can hit 6in behind the ball if the loft bounce yardage and turf give allow for it. Just like you can only hit so far up on driver if the spin allows it. 
 

you are much better off with more bounce than you’ll need and taking it off. Your window of shallow to steep becomes huge and you pick up consistency without the big error. Your goal is to break even on each shot worst case scenario. And capitalize on the good ones. 
 

same with trading. I could show you how to measure velocity of price to time acceleration to volume to trap equity markets. Picking tops and bottoms don’t make winners. Taking the meat after a bottom through to the top and exiting after that top becomes a sell does. Never getting it all is winning. Of course you need the tools to do that. They aren’t in Harvard business books or online. 
 

you’re buddy getitdaily is gonna hit backfoot 60s to fringe spots to tight flags. But if it’s all you know I get it. 
 

You think Kelly slater can’t keep his nose up on a 50’footer because the wave gets steeper or an experienced boater can get a 22 footer thru a storm? No it’s fear because you have doubt. 

Lol.

 

You need as much bounce as your technique and turf you play on dictate. 

 

And I like that you threw in the trading stuff. That's called deflection, using a topic you feel you're much more learned on than others. In psychology, that's a sign of a feeling of inadequacy. 

[iacas]

Also…

 

18 minutes ago, cav5 said:

you’re buddy getitdaily is gonna hit backfoot 60s to fringe spots to tight flags. But if it’s all you know I get it.

 

a) it's "your"

b) 

c) 🤣

[cav5]

20 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Lol.

 

You need as much bounce as your technique and turf you play on dictate. 

 

And I like that you threw in the trading stuff. That's called deflection, using a topic you feel you're much more learned on than others. In psychology, that's a sign of a feeling of inadequacy. 

 

No its explaining how not being perfect makes you better.

[cav5]

lol my half inch carpet off hardwood has less forgivness than your mats. i put a video of it up and hit a 3 yard baby flop ground first as soft as you possibly could. I doubt you or any of the others can hit that shot. Hitting that shot takes 100% commitment of what you're doing. Hitting that shot early from 80 yards is a breeze in comparison.

 

why not let average golfers have a larger variance of attack angles by learning bounce. you'll stop hitting the real bad ones and the days that your mind (or markets) are syncing to blend the math with turf bounce loft yard etc.. then you capitalize. pretty fool proof to me.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, cav5 said:

lol my half inch carpet off hardwood has less forgivness than your mats.

 

Uhmmm, which is why I said:

 

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

But… you're not anywhere close to even 3" behind the balls you're demonstrating, because there's not a bunch of soft padding beneath.

.

You hit very close to the golf ball, and you do so with a negative AoA, because you have to with less padding. You're not hitting even 2" behind your golf ball. Probably not even 1 to get into the actual "turf" (not the top of the carpet).

 

And… my turf is firmer than your carpet out where I demonstrated hitting a pitch off "hardpan."

 

 

 

 

Again, you don't even know what you're arguing against. And instead of speaking to the objections people have had to the factual matters and your preposterous claims about how far behind the ball you engage with the turf, you try to pick at nits thinking that if you can find fault in one little thing, you'll "win" the entire argument. And then you can't even really find fault in little things here and there!

 

 

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

i put a video of it up and hit a 3 yard baby flop ground first as soft as you possibly could.

 

Bold is debatable, and nowhere near even 2" behind the ball.

 

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

I doubt you or any of the others can hit that shot.

 

And you're proven wrong again.

 

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Hitting that shot takes 100% commitment of what you're doing. Hitting that shot early from 80 yards is a breeze in comparison.

 

You don't engage the turf even 1" behind the ball! Sheesh, man.

 

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

why not let average golfers have a larger variance of attack angles by learning bounce. you'll stop hitting the real bad ones and the days that your mind (or markets) are syncing to blend the math with turf bounce loft yard etc.. then you capitalize. pretty fool proof to me.

 

You don't even know who you're arguing against. Seriously.

 

I've said it in this topic: I teach A LOT of people to use the bounce specifically because it can increase the "forgiveness" for a usable shot. But:

• It's one shot. Good players need and use a variety of shots, including several where it's ball, then turf.
• You're not maximizing spin by "using the bounce." The "high spinner" is tough (you can do it - spin loft of 55° will still get it done, but even then it's not super high because high shots ≠ friction ≠ spin. High shots are more slippage and less spin.
• Neither of you have demonstrated hitting even 1" behind a ball on an 80-yard shot, and that's NOT the way you play a shot of that length. Or 90. Or 100. Or 120. That's ball first (nearly) all the time. And the only reason I'm saying "nearly" is because your ball might be sitting in the back of a divot or something.

[cav5]

I use finance cuz most of us are adults and use different people with different ideas to grow and secure our money. Are they all right? How many people claim to know or have models to work. Or better yet call it a thesis for a get out jail free card. Really not that far fetched getitdaily. Not deflecting theres just really nothing else to say.

 

Data taken from the exchange, measured, and plotted so you can visualize it without doing math. That is measuring. Could share a picture but theres too many smart people here that would attempt to reverse engineer.

 

There is no golf swing physics data exchange as much as every dang teacher on the internet claims there to be. I've actually talk to some smart people who've tried and seemingly so far the easiest way is actually 2D.

 

Theres no convo to be had. You get the physics or you don't, and it actually doesn't matter.

 

 

[cav5]

lol if you think that shot was even close to a 3 yard flop

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, cav5 said:

lol if you think that shot was even close to a 3 yard flop

 

I didn't say it was. It's a flop shot off firmer turf than your carpet. With a wedge that has 22° of actual bounce, not the 12° on the C3i. You can get an idea of the launch angle from the video, too.

 

It's ten years old, and your response is the latest in a long line of:

 

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

And instead of speaking to the objections people have had to the factual matters and your preposterous claims about how far behind the ball you engage with the turf, you try to pick at nits thinking that if you can find fault in one little thing, you'll "win" the entire argument.

 

Anyway…

 

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

There is no golf swing physics data exchange as much as every dang teacher on the internet claims there to be. I've actually talk to some smart people who've tried and seemingly so far the easiest way is actually 2D.

 

Theres no convo to be had. You get the physics or you don't, and it actually doesn't matter.

 

You've yet to demonstrate that you "get" the physics at all. You've said things that are, again, literally wrong. Incorrect. False.

 

You've said nonsensical things like "there's no golf swing physics data exchange". Huh? Nobody's claimed that there is. What people have said is to ask you to show us the data on some of the shots you're hitting. Show us a shot, even, without data - just good video - of a 90-yard shot where you engage the turf even 2" behind the ball.

 

I could show you that shot. Unfortunately, it'd be a shot I'm trying to hit 180 yards that I caught 2" fat and so the ball only went 90! 🤣

 

P.S. I literally posted a three-yard shot — a low shot with a lot of spin — earlier in the topic. It was decidedly NOT using the bounce, because that would reduce the margin of error on a shot like that off the turf I was using. The first shot was a bit heavy, but quite literally about 1/4", which is about the max error I had on that type of shot. Trying to engage the bounce before the ball would result in really bad shots off that lie/turf. And it's not because, even with a much larger swing as the video above demonstrates, I can't do it.

 

Edited January 21, 2024 by iacas
Added postscript

[GolfTurkey]

Using the bounce on distance wedges, kicking an upside-down club, trading on Wall Street, surfing giant waves, skippering boats…

 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Using the bounce on distance wedges, kicking an upside-down club, trading on Wall Street, surfing giant waves, skippering boats…

 

 

You'd think that stuff would all be coming from someone with a username like, oh, I dunno, @GolfTurkey, right? 🤣

[cav5]

3 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Using the bounce on distance wedges, kicking an upside-down club, trading on Wall Street, surfing giant waves, skippering boats…

 

Yes you have no clue. And no one’s reading this thread because of you. Must be fun to be a hangeron.