Anyone else think that hitting it OB or lost balls is too penalizing?

[iacas]

6 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Again, I don't disagree with those facts. However, if you have KVC that your ball is in a penalty area but can't find it (i.e. it's at the bottom of a pond) you also can't play your ball. But we've defined a rule that says you estimate where your ball crossed the hazard line and get one club length drop and a penalty stroke.

 

Right, so we know the exact point at which you should drop. A ball lost "somewhere" in the general area isn't specific enough. If it was even "the ball is within this 10 square foot area" you should be able to find it in 3:00.

 

6 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

If we changed a penalty area to be S&D, there would be no disparity. All three would be identical. So I'm asking what justifies the opinion that a lost ball with KVC that it came to rest in the general area SHOULD be more penal than a penalty area.

 

Because literally lost the ball. You don't know how far down the hole you've advanced the ball, or if it even remains on the course.

 

With a PA, you do know how far you've advanced the ball, and whether it's on the course. You can also choose to play it from a PA.

 

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

1. SHOULD losing a ball with KVC that it must have come to rest in the general area carry a more severe penalty than hitting a ball with KVC that it came to rest in a defined penalty area and as severe as KVC that the ball is out of bounds?

 

Yes.

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

In this case you have KVC that your ball came to rest in the general area. I completely agree that there should be a penalty for being unable to find it, but I don't understand why the penalty should be MORE severe than hitting into a defined penalty area, nor why it should be AS severe as hitting into an area defined as literally outside the bounds of the playing area

 

How about this ?

 

How do you feel about the unplayable penalty ? 1 shot and take relief. Or do you not like that either ?

 

The penalty area is a defined portion of the golf course. It was either natural or intentionally created, and is a design element of the course. The player is expected to use his/her skills to avoid it, just like a bunker.

 

But that's not the same as hitting your ball in the general area where you "should" be able to find it, but can't. So you hit your ball into a penalty area; a feature of the course that is hazardous, purposely there and is often very easy to see (the ball go into it).

 

So, NOT OB or lost (both S&D), but simply not retrievable - OR, if you prefer, unplayable. That's if you can't play it out of the PA of course.

 

Or do you have a problem with an unplayable penalty (too) ?

[betarhoalphadelta]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

How about this ?

 

How do you feel about the unplayable penalty ? 1 shot and take relief. Or do you not like that either ?

 

The penalty area is a defined portion of the golf course. It was either natural or intentionally created, and is a design element of the course. The player is expected to use his/her skills to avoid it, just like a bunker.

 

But that's not the same as hitting your ball in the general area where you "should" be able to find it, but can't. So you hit your ball into a penalty area; a feature of the course that is hazardous, purposely there and is often very easy to see (the ball go into it).

 

So, NOT OB or lost (both S&D), but simply not retrievable - OR, if you prefer, unplayable. That's if you can't play it out of the PA of course.

 

Or do you have a problem with an unplayable penalty (too) ?

 

I have no issue with the unplayable rules. If you hit your ball into an area that you deem unwise or unable to play from, you are assessed ONE penalty stroke and have several relief options. You can even choose S&D as one of your relief options if the others are equally terrible to where the ball currently lies. 

 

In fact, upthread where I first proposed this I suggested that if you can assign an estimated relief point, you should then have the same relief options available to an unplayable, i.e. S&D, 2 club lengths no nearer the hole w/ one stroke assessed, or back on line of play w/ one stroke assessed. 

 

Again, this isn't asking for a mulligan or something "free". This is asking to make a lost ball in the general area equally penal as a penalty area or an unplayable. 

 

In my mind the hardest bit is assigning that estimated point of relief... But with MLR E-5, we already do it. You estimate where the ball was lost and draw an arc equidistant from the hole 2 club lengths into the fairway and get a drop there, but are assessed two penalty strokes. So there's already a precedent (admittedly they don't recommend MLR E-5 for elite play) for estimating the area the ball was lost. 

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I have no issue with the unplayable rules. If you hit your ball into an area that you deem unwise or unable to play from, you are assessed ONE penalty stroke and have several relief options. You can even choose S&D as one of your relief options if the others are equally terrible to where the ball currently lies. 

 

In fact, upthread where I first proposed this I suggested that if you can assign an estimated relief point, you should then have the same relief options available to an unplayable, i.e. S&D, 2 club lengths no nearer the hole w/ one stroke assessed, or back on line of play w/ one stroke assessed. 

 

Again, this isn't asking for a mulligan or something "free". This is asking to make a lost ball in the general area equally penal as a penalty area or an unplayable. 

 

In my mind the hardest bit is assigning that estimated point of relief... But with MLR E-5, we already do it. You estimate where the ball was lost and draw an arc equidistant from the hole 2 club lengths into the fairway and get a drop there, but are assessed two penalty strokes. So there's already a precedent (admittedly they don't recommend MLR E-5 for elite play) for estimating the area the ball was lost. 

 

Great, so you're OK with an unplayable.

 

So, my point IS, the PA relief, which you were most recently complaining about/comparing to (LB/OB), is much closer to the unplayable relief than it is to lost or OB. It's only 1 stroke and you KVC it's IN the PA and where it last crossed.

 

THAT is why the PA is only a single stroke w/o the loss of distance instead of "2" (S&D) for lost or OB.

 

And why would you bring a MLR into it ?

 

You put up a good fight and you've convinced nobody. Time to say "Uncle".

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

You put up a good fight and you've convinced nobody. Time to say "Uncle".

 

Fair enough. I only have one thing left to ask... 

 

The next time you hit a ball into an area of the course where there should be ZERO risk of losing a ball--and you just can't find the darn thing, and have to trudge back to the previous spot of play or take a 2-stroke MLR E-5 penalty in frustration...

 

...think of me? 😉

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Fair enough. I only have one thing left to ask... 

 

The next time you hit a ball into an area of the course where there should be ZERO risk of losing a ball--and you just can't find the darn thing, and have to trudge back to the previous spot of play or take a 2-stroke MLR E-5 penalty in frustration...

 

...think of me? 😉

 

You got it. 👍

[rogolf]

51 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Fair enough. I only have one thing left to ask... 

 

The next time you hit a ball into an area of the course where there should be ZERO risk of losing a ball--and you just can't find the darn thing, and have to trudge back to the previous spot of play or take a 2-stroke MLR E-5 penalty in frustration...

 

...think of me? 😉

It seems it's all about the player's score - doesn't like the penalty strokes.  It's the same for everyone.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Fair enough. I only have one thing left to ask... 

 

The next time you hit a ball into an area of the course where there should be ZERO risk of losing a ball--and you just can't find the darn thing, and have to trudge back to the previous spot of play or take a 2-stroke MLR E-5 penalty in frustration...

 

...think of me? 😉

If I’m unsure if I will find it or not I hit a provisional so I don’t had to go back to the tee

11 minutes ago, rogolf said:

It seems it's all about the player's score - doesn't like the penalty strokes.  It's the same for everyone.

Always what it boils down to. Those not happy with the rules aren’t happy with scoring higher. They don’t like taking their medicine

[betarhoalphadelta]

27 minutes ago, rogolf said:

It seems it's all about the player's score - doesn't like the penalty strokes.  It's the same for everyone.

 

It's more about the type of penalty. I can't tell you how many times I've lost balls in places, on courses that I know well, that should have ended up "safe". Get up there and there's no ball. 

 

The sort of instances where you KNOW there had to have been some outside interference, or maybe it disappeared down an animal hole, or something like that, but you don't have KVC so it's lost. I even had one that I hit tracking to the center of a wide, flat, fairway, with clear sight lines 50 yards in every direction, but where the landing spot itself is blind... And the ball just vanished. 

 

It's frustrating to get up there and realize I would have been ended up better off hitting the ball into a marked penalty area. 

 

I understand a penalty for a lost ball. It's just frustrating that it's MORE penal than a penalty area or an unplayable lie. 

 

19 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

If I’m unsure if I will find it or not I hit a provisional so I don’t had to go back to the tee

 

 

 

As stated, the more frustrating ones are where you don't think there's any chance of losing a ball. You see the ball head into an area on a course that you know well. There are no hazards, no OB, no deep woods, no bushes/etc, and only light rough. By all estimates the ball should be EASILY found. I mean, I don't play on tour. I don't have galleries watching my shots and spotters to put a little white marking flag in the rough where it ended up. Sometimes you lose balls that you simply can't explain where they could possibly have ended up other than where you are, but you just can't find it. 

 

A ball that "should" be safe isn't found, and then the penalty is worse than hitting the ball into a known penalty area. I.e. the left side of a hole is open and just light rough. The right side is a pond with OB further right. You play towards the left to avoid those areas. You hit the ball left to be "safe". And somehow it gets lost in light rough and now you're worse off than if you'd rinsed it. That's the bit that I find objectionable.

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

It's more about the type of penalty. I can't tell you how many times I've lost balls in places, on courses that I know well, that should have ended up "safe". Get up there and there's no ball. 

 

The sort of instances where you KNOW there had to have been some outside interference, or maybe it disappeared down an animal hole, or something like that, but you don't have KVC so it's lost. I even had one that I hit tracking to the center of a wide, flat, fairway, with clear sight lines 50 yards in every direction, but where the landing spot itself is blind... And the ball just vanished. 

 

It's frustrating to get up there and realize I would have been ended up better off hitting the ball into a marked penalty area. 

 

I understand a penalty for a lost ball. It's just frustrating that it's MORE penal than a penalty area or an unplayable lie. 

 

 

As stated, the more frustrating ones are where you don't think there's any chance of losing a ball. You see the ball head into an area on a course that you know well. There are no hazards, no OB, no deep woods, no bushes/etc, and only light rough. By all estimates the ball should be EASILY found. I mean, I don't play on tour. I don't have galleries watching my shots and spotters to put a little white marking flag in the rough where it ended up. Sometimes you lose balls that you simply can't explain where they could possibly have ended up other than where you are, but you just can't find it. 

 

A ball that "should" be safe isn't found, and then the penalty is worse than hitting the ball into a known penalty area. I.e. the left side of a hole is open and just light rough. The right side is a pond with OB further right. You play towards the left to avoid those areas. You hit the ball left to be "safe". And somehow it gets lost in light rough and now you're worse off than if you'd rinsed it. That's the bit that I find objectionable.

I take your point; I think everyone does.  But I don’t know how you would construct an actual rule that wouldn’t cause more problems than it would solve.

 

A lost ball is a matter of fact, not opinion, as are penalty areas and OB. The sort of areas you are talking about are much more subjective, and often with OB nearby; who determines that a ball should be “easily found”?  If you have rough and then tall fescue bordering the rough, and then OB, and a player says, “There is NO way my ball made it through this tall stuff and went OB”, what then?

 

As a thought exercise, try writing a draft of a rule that fits your criteria for a one stroke lost ball penalty, while still having S&D for OB. 
 

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Fair enough. I only have one thing left to ask... 

 

The next time you hit a ball into an area of the course where there should be ZERO risk of losing a ball--and you just can't find the darn thing, and have to trudge back to the previous spot of play or take a 2-stroke MLR E-5 penalty in frustration...

 

...think of me? 😉

You’ve become so inextricably associated with the rule I won’t be able to help it! 😀✌️

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

It's more about the type of penalty. I can't tell you how many times I've lost balls in places, on courses that I know well, that should have ended up "safe". Get up there and there's no ball.

The sort of instances where you KNOW there had to have been some outside interference, or maybe it disappeared down an animal hole, or something like that, but you don't have KVC so it's lost. I even had one that I hit tracking to the center of a wide, flat, fairway, with clear sight lines 50 yards in every direction, but where the landing spot itself is blind... And the ball just vanished.

It's frustrating to get up there and realize I would have been ended up better off hitting the ball into a marked penalty area.

I understand a penalty for a lost ball. It's just frustrating that it's MORE penal than a penalty area or an unplayable lie.

Just shows that a change is being suggested merely to improve a player's score.  It's time to get over the score issue.  If your score would be better by hitting into a penalty area, that's your choice.

If you want to read about the machinations that have occurred over the years, try this....

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

Edited February 16, 2024 by rogolf

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

It's more about the type of penalty. I can't tell you how many times I've lost balls in places, on courses that I know well, that should have ended up "safe". Get up there and there's no ball. 

 

The sort of instances where you KNOW there had to have been some outside interference, or maybe it disappeared down an animal hole, or something like that, but you don't have KVC so it's lost. I even had one that I hit tracking to the center of a wide, flat, fairway, with clear sight lines 50 yards in every direction, but where the landing spot itself is blind... And the ball just vanished. 

 

It's frustrating to get up there and realize I would have been ended up better off hitting the ball into a marked penalty area. 

 

I understand a penalty for a lost ball. It's just frustrating that it's MORE penal than a penalty area or an unplayable lie. 

 

 

As stated, the more frustrating ones are where you don't think there's any chance of losing a ball. You see the ball head into an area on a course that you know well. There are no hazards, no OB, no deep woods, no bushes/etc, and only light rough. By all estimates the ball should be EASILY found. I mean, I don't play on tour. I don't have galleries watching my shots and spotters to put a little white marking flag in the rough where it ended up. Sometimes you lose balls that you simply can't explain where they could possibly have ended up other than where you are, but you just can't find it. 

 

A ball that "should" be safe isn't found, and then the penalty is worse than hitting the ball into a known penalty area. I.e. the left side of a hole is open and just light rough. The right side is a pond with OB further right. You play towards the left to avoid those areas. You hit the ball left to be "safe". And somehow it gets lost in light rough and now you're worse off than if you'd rinsed it. That's the bit that I find objectionable.

Except…as @iacas and @nsxguy have pointed out…

where would you drop in your proposed rule.  You certainly cannot drop in the “right” area or the ball would have been found-in that area.  You mentioned an area that the grass is ankle deep or more.  In your scenario are you dropping into that area or in the “nicer” cut of grass with one stroke penalty. If the ball is in that long grass area would you be able to extricate it in one shot?  Seems unlikely if you cannot even find it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Just shows that a change is being suggested merely to improve a player's score.  It's time to get over the score issue.  If your score would be better by hitting into a penalty area, that's your choice.

If you want to read about the machinations that have occurred over the years, try this....

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

 

Yeah, but interesting in there is that a lot of people tend to criticize those of us who suggest a rule change as being part of the "rulez R dum" crowd... Yet at one point the lost ball rule was distance only, and at another point it was THREE strokes and distance. At one point OB was distance only, and in 1964 they offered a local rule that was a "stroke only" option similar to lateral penalty area relief. 

 

Rules can be changed. To me it just seems bizarre that hitting a ball into the general area on a course and merely not being able to find it is treated as badly as dunking it in Biff's backyard jacuzzi, narrowly missing Buffy's noggin, off the boundaries of the property...

 

32 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Except…as @iacas and @nsxguy have pointed out…

where would you drop in your proposed rule.  You certainly cannot drop in the “right” area or the ball would have been found-in that area.  You mentioned an area that the grass is ankle deep or more.  In your scenario are you dropping into that area or in the “nicer” cut of grass with one stroke penalty. If the ball is in that long grass area would you be able to extricate it in one shot?  Seems unlikely if you cannot even find it.

 

Yeah, the more I think about it I think that "where to drop" question might just be a bridge too far to solve. While MLR E-5 allows an "estimated" point where the ball was lost as where to take relief, MLR is a PoP rule for casual play, not a solution that can be easily adapted to high-level play. Thus using an "estimated" point, for example in a US Open qualifier, might just not be something you can do. 

 

It might be a situation where I believe the rule is too penal for the situation, but there's just no good workable way around it. 

 

That course was wild... You'd get four players and four caddies looking for a ball in the thick stuff and frequently not find it--but you'd find three or four others! 😂 Luckily I would get playing privileges on Mondays if I'd carried three times in the previous week, so I got to play a course they wouldn't ordinarily allow riff-raff like me to even sniff. If you hit it in that nasty stuff, and found your ball, about the only option was aim at the shortest distance to the fairway (i.e. roughly 90* away from the pin), grab your pitching wedge, hit it as hard as you ^$*%&@ can, and pray it makes it to the short grass lol... 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Rules can be changed.

 

But these haven't really much in like 60 years…

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

But these haven't really much in like 60 years…

Given all the significant changes in the 2019 simplification, which included reducing some penalties, they must be fine!  👍

Edited February 17, 2024 by rogolf

[Schulzmc]

16 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Luckily I would get playing privileges on Mondays if I'd carried three times in the previous week, so I got to play a course they wouldn't ordinarily allow riff-raff like me to even sniff.

Yep = I live a short drive from that course. I’ve played many of the best golf courses in the world,, including some that are tough to get on, and have still never found a way to play Chicago Golf. You are indeed blessed!