Are there any benefits to having a more on plane backswing

[birdie2bogey]

Hello everyone

 

Relatively new to golf, wanna get my fundamentals right so i can maximize my potential.

 

I play a push draw for all my shots. I take right side of course essentially out of play 

 

I play my best when im swinging the club a little inside and under plane so i can get my hands deep enough to play my push draw. If i take the club back on plane, im not as deep and my ball flight gets inconsistent. 

 

I have also been told that my club path is getting to out of ideal range. (-4 to -5) and my swing direction (0 to -2)

 

Am i just looking for a prettier swing or is there actually an advantage to being on plane on my back swing.

 

There have been youtube videos describing this move as over the top from the inside and apparently a lot of old school pros has similiar moves.

 

Open to suggestions. Open to drills to help me be on plane and still get deep ( i cant seem to do it even though im physically able to in ststic position)

 

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WD3qvhBez1xj2KU4A

[iacas]

Your hand comes off the club at the top, no? Plane doesn’t look like the biggest issue.

[golfing_penguin]

There is an advantage to proper loading the trail wrist before the back-swing is finished. Same for proper turning the hips/tailbone

 

Specific looks will vary on mobility etc

[MonteScheinblum]

Too bent over with hands too low at address.

 

”On plane” should be abandoned as a concept.  We have enough 3D info and you can change on plane to off plane and vice versa by changing the camera angle.

[getitdaily]

Do you fear hitting the ceiling on your follow thru?

[Valtiel]

13 hours ago, birdie2bogey said:

Hello everyone

 

Relatively new to golf, wanna get my fundamentals right so i can maximize my potential.

 

I play a push draw for all my shots. I take right side of course essentially out of play 

 

I play my best when im swinging the club a little inside and under plane so i can get my hands deep enough to play my push draw. If i take the club back on plane, im not as deep and my ball flight gets inconsistent. 

 

I have also been told that my club path is getting to out of ideal range. (-4 to -5) and my swing direction (0 to -2)

 

Am i just looking for a prettier swing or is there actually an advantage to being on plane on my back swing.

 

There have been youtube videos describing this move as over the top from the inside and apparently a lot of old school pros has similiar moves.

 

Open to suggestions. Open to drills to help me be on plane and still get deep ( i cant seem to do it even though im physically able to in ststic position)

 

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WD3qvhBez1xj2KU4A

Agreed with the above posts about path not really being a point of concern here. You have a number of interesting things going on in your swing that add up to this pattern you're describing though:

1) Very strong grip. Both hands are turned over quite a bit which will tend to facilitate increased club rotation, likely to match up with your inside path to keep the ball from leaking.
2) You slide quite a bit in the downswing. You have a good shift off the ball early in your takeaway which gets you loaded into your trail side in good time, but you slide probably more than is optimal which combined with #3 has your hands trailing in the downswing which encourages a flip at the bottom, something that the strong grip helps you do. 
3) Strange hand/wrist conditions in the backswing (more below)

What's going on with your hands IMO is the biggest thing to look at here. If we look at just the shaft plane going back you appears to hinge quite a bit (nothing wrong with that, arguably a good thing) but looking closely at your hands reveals some strange stuff. Almost *all* of that hinging is coming from radial deviation in your right (gloved) hand, and your left hand is strangely extremely passive and not hinged at all. This culminates in what @iacas pointed out above which is that you appear to practically let go of the club at the top of the swing with that hand. This is unusual because normally that hand would be loaded and ready to create speed in the downswing and you're doing the opposite here and seemingly using your lead hand for all that work. The problem there is that this causes your hands to cast quite wide in the downswing and is part of why they lag behind your lower body. 

Like most golf swings you have a collection of things that add up to the pattern you're seeing. The strong grip, unbalanced hand/wrist usage, and excessive sliding in the downswing all combine to form the inside path and push-draw pattern you're describing. Can you explain what you feel like your intent is overall and any details about the unusual hand/wrist stuff? Right handed playing left handed maybe? Any injury/pain issues?

[birdie2bogey]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Agreed with the above posts about path not really being a point of concern here. You have a number of interesting things going on in your swing that add up to this pattern you're describing though:

1) Very strong grip. Both hands are turned over quite a bit which will tend to facilitate increased club rotation, likely to match up with your inside path to keep the ball from leaking.
2) You slide quite a bit in the downswing. You have a good shift off the ball early in your takeaway which gets you loaded into your trail side in good time, but you slide probably more than is optimal which combined with #3 has your hands trailing in the downswing which encourages a flip at the bottom, something that the strong grip helps you do. 
3) Strange hand/wrist conditions in the backswing (more below)

What's going on with your hands IMO is the biggest thing to look at here. If we look at just the shaft plane going back you appears to hinge quite a bit (nothing wrong with that, arguably a good thing) but looking closely at your hands reveals some strange stuff. Almost *all* of that hinging is coming from radial deviation in your right (gloved) hand, and your left hand is strangely extremely passive and not hinged at all. This culminates in what @iacas pointed out above which is that you appear to practically let go of the club at the top of the swing with that hand. This is unusual because normally that hand would be loaded and ready to create speed in the downswing and you're doing the opposite here and seemingly using your lead hand for all that work. The problem there is that this causes your hands to cast quite wide in the downswing and is part of why they lag behind your lower body. 

Like most golf swings you have a collection of things that add up to the pattern you're seeing. The strong grip, unbalanced hand/wrist usage, and excessive sliding in the downswing all combine to form the inside path and push-draw pattern you're describing. Can you explain what you feel like your intent is overall and any details about the unusual hand/wrist stuff? Right handed playing left handed maybe? Any injury/pain issues?

 

Wow, I am quite impressed that you were able to garner all that with two 2-d videos. And you are spot on.

 

Hands/wrist

I have better feels and face control with my lead hand. I don't know how it ended up that way but it just did over time. For that reason, I control the club face with my lead hand and do just about everything with my lead hand.  I also probably don't know how to shallow properly. I don't shallow it with rotation. I was told like a lot of people to "drop the club" and I think I do that literally with my left hand by "letting go of the club" to allow to drop instead of pulling it toward the ball. When i first started playing I used to be very left hand dominant for my swing and I would just pull the grip so hard on the downswing and got steep because of it. 

 

AT the top of my backswing, I allow a pause. In practice, I literally count "one thousand one, one thousand two" before i start the down swing. When I started the downswing my feel is to pull my left and right elbow down the line or just slightly leftward and then release my hands. 

 

Slide

You are also right when it comes to my slide. I don't know how to rotate without getting steep so I slide on purpose to avoid the dreaded steep glancing blow going across the ball. By sliding, I keep the club in front of me and can just swing my elbow/hands slightly leftward or down the line. I know this is a fault but not sure how to fix it

 

I am lucky to be young still and a relatively fit person. I am doing TPI and have no injuries so I don't have any limitations.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. Super helpful. Now I gotta figure out how to fix it...

 

 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, birdie2bogey said:

 

Wow, I am quite impressed that you were able to garner all that with two 2-d videos. And you are spot on.

 

Hands/wrist

I have better feels and face control with my lead hand. I don't know how it ended up that way but it just did over time. For that reason, I control the club face with my lead hand and do just about everything with my lead hand.  I also probably don't know how to shallow properly. I don't shallow it with rotation. I was told like a lot of people to "drop the club" and I think I do that literally with my left hand by "letting go of the club" to allow to drop instead of pulling it toward the ball. When i first started playing I used to be very left hand dominant for my swing and I would just pull the grip so hard on the downswing and got steep because of it. 

 

AT the top of my backswing, I allow a pause. In practice, I literally count "one thousand one, one thousand two" before i start the down swing. When I started the downswing my feel is to pull my left and right elbow down the line or just slightly leftward and then release my hands. 

 

Slide

You are also right when it comes to my slide. I don't know how to rotate without getting steep so I slide on purpose to avoid the dreaded steep glancing blow going across the ball. By sliding, I keep the club in front of me and can just swing my elbow/hands slightly leftward or down the line. I know this is a fault but not sure how to fix it

 

I am lucky to be young still and a relatively fit person. I am doing TPI and have no injuries so I don't have any limitations.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. Super helpful. Now I gotta figure out how to fix it...

 

 

Thanks for the details, very helpful. I'm going to skip past the hands/wrists comments and address the slide/top of the backswing stuff as that feels more relevant right now.



Drawing some lines to track head, shoulder, and hip positions here compared to 1997 Tiger who had a similar amount of lateral movement at the time. First thing I note is setup, and while Tiger was hitting a pretty full and high shot here so he is tilted a little more away from the ball, it still should be noted that you're looking somewhat stacked over your front side here. I think that is part of why your takeaway sees you shifting as much as you do with the upper body, which is generally where the issue is. A shift off the ball isn't a bad thing, this much shift though might be for reasons we'll see next.

The very early wrist set is interesting as well, obviously Tiger was known for being quite wide in his swing arc, but the fact that you get the club parallel to the ground this early with absolutely zero hinging from the trail wrist is....unique. I have to resist every normal instinct to even rehearse this, let alone actually swing this way, hah. But like I said, we'll table that for now although it likely will be something that needs to be addressed.



You do a great job of posting up here though and not continuing to overdo the shift away from the ball like many would here. Your hips have even started working back towards the target already which makes sense given the shorter swing length overall compared to Tiger here. Note the tilt away from the target though as this is the crucial bit. You have a little (and Tiger has a lot), but...



This move is where the trouble starts IMO. On paper it's often something that encouraged, making sure you get into your lead side before you start uncoiling your upper body. Here though you're overdoing it and getting out ahead of the ball. You already started re-centering in good time before and now you're excessively pressuring your lead side and drifting too far. This locks you into quite an inside path as you've noted and your hands are also now forced to cast out quite wide:



And you continue thrusting towards the target with your whole body, overtaking the ball. This fits with what you said about not knowing how to rotate without getting steep. You're pressuring the hell out of your lead side but you aren't using it to create rotation at the right time, which sounds like the next step for you here. Note how Tiger's head drops a bit here where yours raises, this is indicative of the same thing; throwing weight towards your lead side with your whole body without knowing what you do with it.



Down into impact you back up a little bit to regain some of the tilt you lost in swaying towards the target, a good recovery but one that is an unnecessary compensation if you just maintain said tilt throughout the swing. If you suffer from low pulls/hooks with the driver and poor control over vertical strike location (high/low strikes) then this is also why.

You mentioned working at TPI, what are you doing there so far?

[birdie2bogey]

Im yellow and green for just about everything, no red. Im working mostly on disassociation stretching and pull/push strength. Also a lot of box jumps. 

 

So the reason i dont rotate hard is because i dont know how to match up my release when my hips are open at impact. (I know - this sounds stupid. I know its wrong but i cant figure it iut)

 

I like releasing the ball with my shoulders slightly closed and pointing down the line and my lead hand on top of my trail hand. I feel like i can really release and have a nice snap throguh release. Im showing this on the starred video

 

If i rotate open and my shoulder line pointing towards the right instead, i feel my left hand getting on top of my right hand and there is not pop. I just swipe across the ball. 

 

I know this is wrong. But i dont lnow how to match it up 🤷🏼‍♀️ but maybe my release is wrong too. 

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XybDE67SC2wmstXSA

 

29 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Thanks for the details, very helpful. I'm going to skip past the hands/wrists comments and address the slide/top of the backswing stuff as that feels more relevant right now.



Drawing some lines to track head, shoulder, and hip positions here compared to 1997 Tiger who had a similar amount of lateral movement at the time. First thing I note is setup, and while Tiger was hitting a pretty full and high shot here so he is tilted a little more away from the ball, it still should be noted that you're looking somewhat stacked over your front side here. I think that is part of why your takeaway sees you shifting as much as you do with the upper body, which is generally where the issue is. A shift off the ball isn't a bad thing, this much shift though might be for reasons we'll see next.

The very early wrist set is interesting as well, obviously Tiger was known for being quite wide in his swing arc, but the fact that you get the club parallel to the ground this early with absolutely zero hinging from the trail wrist is....unique. I have to resist every normal instinct to even rehearse this, let alone actually swing this way, hah. But like I said, we'll table that for now although it likely will be something that needs to be addressed.



You do a great job of posting up here though and not continuing to overdo the shift away from the ball like many would here. Your hips have even started working back towards the target already which makes sense given the shorter swing length overall compared to Tiger here. Note the tilt away from the target though as this is the crucial bit. You have a little (and Tiger has a lot), but...



This move is where the trouble starts IMO. On paper it's often something that encouraged, making sure you get into your lead side before you start uncoiling your upper body. Here though you're overdoing it and getting out ahead of the ball. You already started re-centering in good time before and now you're excessively pressuring your lead side and drifting too far. This locks you into quite an inside path as you've noted and your hands are also now forced to cast out quite wide:



And you continue thrusting towards the target with your whole body, overtaking the ball. This fits with what you said about not knowing how to rotate without getting steep. You're pressuring the hell out of your lead side but you aren't using it to create rotation at the right time, which sounds like the next step for you here. Note how Tiger's head drops a bit here where yours raises, this is indicative of the same thing; throwing weight towards your lead side with your whole body without knowing what you do with it.



Down into impact you back up a little bit to regain some of the tilt you lost in swaying towards the target, a good recovery but one that is an unnecessary compensation if you just maintain said tilt throughout the swing. If you suffer from low pulls/hooks with the driver and poor control over vertical strike location (high/low strikes) then this is also why.

You mentioned working at TPI, what are you doing there so far?

 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Thanks for the details, very helpful. I'm going to skip past the hands/wrists comments and address the slide/top of the backswing stuff as that feels more relevant right now.



Drawing some lines to track head, shoulder, and hip positions here compared to 1997 Tiger who had a similar amount of lateral movement at the time. First thing I note is setup, and while Tiger was hitting a pretty full and high shot here so he is tilted a little more away from the ball, it still should be noted that you're looking somewhat stacked over your front side here. I think that is part of why your takeaway sees you shifting as much as you do with the upper body, which is generally where the issue is. A shift off the ball isn't a bad thing, this much shift though might be for reasons we'll see next.

The very early wrist set is interesting as well, obviously Tiger was known for being quite wide in his swing arc, but the fact that you get the club parallel to the ground this early with absolutely zero hinging from the trail wrist is....unique. I have to resist every normal instinct to even rehearse this, let alone actually swing this way, hah. But like I said, we'll table that for now although it likely will be something that needs to be addressed.



You do a great job of posting up here though and not continuing to overdo the shift away from the ball like many would here. Your hips have even started working back towards the target already which makes sense given the shorter swing length overall compared to Tiger here. Note the tilt away from the target though as this is the crucial bit. You have a little (and Tiger has a lot), but...



This move is where the trouble starts IMO. On paper it's often something that encouraged, making sure you get into your lead side before you start uncoiling your upper body. Here though you're overdoing it and getting out ahead of the ball. You already started re-centering in good time before and now you're excessively pressuring your lead side and drifting too far. This locks you into quite an inside path as you've noted and your hands are also now forced to cast out quite wide:



And you continue thrusting towards the target with your whole body, overtaking the ball. This fits with what you said about not knowing how to rotate without getting steep. You're pressuring the hell out of your lead side but you aren't using it to create rotation at the right time, which sounds like the next step for you here. Note how Tiger's head drops a bit here where yours raises, this is indicative of the same thing; throwing weight towards your lead side with your whole body without knowing what you do with it.



Down into impact you back up a little bit to regain some of the tilt you lost in swaying towards the target, a good recovery but one that is an unnecessary compensation if you just maintain said tilt throughout the swing. If you suffer from low pulls/hooks with the driver and poor control over vertical strike location (high/low strikes) then this is also why.

You mentioned working at TPI, what are you doing there so far?

 

Very good coaching! Much more beneficial than telling someone they need more hip depth, shoulder turn etc etc.