Qi10 Max. Do I give up 10-15 yards for killer dispersion and consistency?

[HoganHO]

Been trying many of the new driver releases (Ping 10k, Qi10, Qi10LS, Smoke TD) and today I finally hit the Qi10 Max. I love the look, feel and sound. 

 

My dispersion and consistency were awesome. Love the ball flight pattern as well. 

 

Carrying 250-255 consistently with 102-104 swing speed. Ball Speed around 153-154. Launch 13-15. (GC Quad indoors)

 

My one concern is the spin--its 2800-3000 (a touch higher on heely shots) I have it playing at 7 degrees with a Diamana WB 63 x.

 

In reality, The other heads are spinning lower for sure and getting the occasional 265-270+ carry, but the dispersions are way worse and in reality the average carry is probably the same--just less roll out with the Max.

 

Thoughts?

[Barfolomew]

Yes put a ring on it 💍

 

Killer dispersion is so rare. Imagine pickin the side of the fairway you wanna play from Imagine takin all your friends to the cleaners..... anyone can chase distance and play from the trees.  Can always tweak things to gain some yardage later, like hittin like a real man

[RogerinNewZealand]

Consistency.

Confidence.

Oh..this is golfwrx..give me the extra 17 yards and a Mower for the TallGrass

[pnwbeamer]

I’ve seen some fittings where people have actually picked up yards with the max head. Are you at a 9 turned down to a 7?

[London424]

I’d only sacrifice the distance if the wild ones were costing you shots. 

[HoganHO]

13 minutes ago, pnwbeamer said:

I’ve seen some fittings where people have actually picked up yards with the max head. Are you at a 9 turned down to a 7?

Yep.

13 minutes ago, London424 said:

I’d only sacrifice the distance if the wild ones were costing you shots. 

The wild ones definitely cost me shots.

[rooski]

I've recently been down this path myself, but a data point that helped me feel good about my decision was the PGA Tour Average Driver Spin Rate.

 

Do with that info what you will. 

 

I'm seeing 2600-3000 spin off the middle with my setup and couldn't be happier, although my miss is definitely on the high toe rather than the heel like it might be for you. If my miss was consistently low heel I would probably want a bit lower spin off the middle.

Edited February 20, 2024 by rooski

[Valtiel]

Three main points here IMO:

1) You're really not far off from your ideal spin range. At 102-104mph there is little to be gained from sub 2,500rpm spin (more on this below). 

2) At a lofted down 7* to be launching at 13-15* implies you're definitely adding loft at impact, likely in conjunction with a decently positive AoA. Do you happen to have any dynamic loft and/or AoA numbers to help here? This is where any potential missing yardage likely is. 

3) You're very likely are *not* missing 10-15y actual yards here, and this is especially true for GCQuad. What you're missing is an artificially inflated number based on how GCQuad, and Foresight in general, disproportionately boosts carry and total distance numbers as spin goes down. 

According to Flightscope your 250-255 cary makes perfect sense with your current numbers. Drop your spin to 2,000 while maintaining the same exact launch and you gain like...3 yards of carry and a couple yards of roll. Inconsequential. 

Chasing hypothetical launch monitor-based goldilocks distance numbers ***** people up, especially when the launch monitor is largely lying to you. It isn't until you get into 180mph+ ball speed territory that dropping spin from high 2,000s to low 2,000s can gain you double digit yardage, anything short of that and you're FAR better off forgetting about chasing low spin because it hurts far more than it helps. 

Edited February 24, 2024 by Valtiel

[drvrwdge]

No. 

[HoganHO]

16 minutes ago, rooski said:

I've recently been down this path myself, but a data point that helped me feel good about my decision was the PGA Tour Average Driver Spin Rate.

 

Do with that info what you will. 

 

I'm seeing 2600-3000 spin off the middle with my setup and couldn't be happier, although my miss is definitely on the high toe rather than the heel like it might be for you. If my miss was consistently low heel I would probably want a bit lower spin off the middle.

That spin rate chart is crazy. I'm no PGA Tour player, but it gives me some confidence to know they are spinning the ball that much.

[tbone18]

I have the Max as well.  9* lofted to 8.25*(one click towards lower).  GD VF 7x at 45.5". Very smooth feel not boardy at all. I usually play a controlled cut off the tee but with this setup i had to change up my target line a bit further to the right because the ball just wants to go straight.  Spin numbers are the similar for me but a bit lower(2300 to 2700).  my launch is lower on trackman.(10-12)

[dmeeksDC]

To me it depends. If your swing speed is the same with other drivers, you’re probably in a good spot. The Max is a large head. I was swinging other drivers a few MPH faster than I was the Max. 
 

I feel like we don’t need to give up distance for forgiveness anymore. If I am getting great accuracy and my approach shots have me hitting one club longer into greens vs other drivers, say 10 yards, I am fine with that. But if it is two clubs longer, that’s a lot to leave out there. But I’d first need to confirm there is another driver I carry 15 yards longer and if there is I’d see if there is a shaft/head combo that puts that one in the fairway. I’d only go with the shorter one if I couldn’t. 
 

Edited February 21, 2024 by dmeeksDC

[black bnr32]

I was in your situation and just picked a lower spinning ball.

[Asics10]

No, the data is in. The farther you hit your drives the lower the score. Especially 10-15yards 

[HoganHO]

1 hour ago, Asics10 said:

No, the data is in. The farther you hit your drives the lower the score. Especially 10-15yards 

That's only true if your errant drives do not cause penalty strokes....

 

Also, some in-play mishits just end up even shorter than the average with this driver for me (obviously need to test on-course)

Edited February 21, 2024 by HoganHO

[bogeypro]

Hell no!!  You take the regular version and you get fit.  Take the distance and get the club fit and working for you.

[Jc0]

1 hour ago, HoganHO said:

That spin rate chart is crazy. I'm no PGA Tour player, but it gives me some confidence to know they are spinning the ball that much.

 

They aren't though. Read the information detail. It's all par 4s and 5s, not just where they hit drivers. So holes where they hit fairway woods or irons off the tee are included. 

[HoganHO]

4 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

They aren't though. Read the information detail. It's all par 4s and 5s, not just where they hit drivers. So holes where they hit fairway woods or irons off the tee are included. 

Makes sense

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Asics10 said:

No, the data is in. The farther you hit your drives the lower the score. Especially 10-15yards 

 

42 minutes ago, bogeypro said:

Hell no!!  You take the regular version and you get fit.  Take the distance and get the club fit and working for you.

 

38 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

They aren't though. Read the information detail. It's all par 4s and 5s, not just where they hit drivers. So holes where they hit fairway woods or irons off the tee are included. 

That point is though that "10-15y" is likely not even real. If you do a google search for "Foresight low spin" you'll see consistent reports over the last 5+ years of people seeing inflated distance numbers when spin drops below a certain point, with "10-15y" being repeatedly mentioned. Distance numbers that aren't supported by any other launch monitor platform or Flightscope Optimizer. This lures people into getting super low spinning, unforgiving drivers that *aren't* functionally any longer on the course and produce mishits that are far more penal. Hell it even happened to Ian and Matt a couple years back on TXG when they fit him into the Callaway Mavrik SZ. He just "could't give up that distance!" until he actually got on the course and it wasn't any longer AND it was far more punishing on mishits. 10-15y ain't real on GCQuad when you're hitting knuckle balls, and that is especially true if you're low 100's clubhead speed, which leads to the second point...

That's a good spot on the PGA tour spin averages and I do wonder if they "normalize" that at all by removing non-drivers. Assuming they don't though that still doesn't change much. We know for a fact that virtually no one on tour chases sub 2,000rpm with the driver and that optimal spin for total distance depends heavily on clubhead speed. The recent video on Titleist's channel with Aberg sums up most pros approach perfectly; mid 2,000's out of the middle with heel misses staying sub 3,000 and toe misses staying above 2,000. That is a guy swinging 118-120 regularly, so shift that entire window up a few hundred RPM for 100-105mph. There isn't 10-15y on the table for someone with the OP's numbers unless he is miss hitting the ball. If they were swinging 120mph+ then maybe, but that would still depend on other factors. 

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by Valtiel

[bogeypro]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

 

That point is though that "10-15y" is likely not even real. If you do a google search for "Foresight low spin" you'll see consistent reports over the last 5+ years of people seeing inflated distance numbers when spin drops below a certain point, with "10-15y" being repeatedly mentioned. Distance numbers that aren't supported by any other launch monitor platform or Flightscope Optimizer. This lures people into getting super low spinning, unforgiving drivers that *aren't* functionally any longer on the course and produce mishits that are far more penal. Hell it even happened to Ian and Matt a couple years back on TXG when they fit him into the Callaway Mavrik SZ. He just "could't give up that distance!" until he actually got on the course and it wasn't any longer AND it was far more punishing on mishits. 10-15y ain't real on GCQuad when you're hitting knuckle balls, and that is especially true if you're low 100's clubhead speed, which leads to the second point...

That's a good spot on the PGA tour spin averages and I do wonder if they "normalize" that at all by removing non-drivers. Assuming they don't though that still doesn't change much. We know for a fact that virtually no one on tour chases sub 2,000rpm with the driver and that optimal spin for total distance depends heavily on clubhead speed. The recent video on Titleist's channel with Aberg sums up most pros approach perfectly; mid 2,000's out of the middle with heel misses staying sub 3,000 and toe misses staying above 2,000. That is a guy swinging 118-120 regularly, so shift that entire window up a few hundred RPM for 100-105mph. There isn't 10-15y on the table for someone with the OP's numbers unless he is miss hitting the ball. If they were swinging 120mph+ then maybe, but that would still depend on other factors. 

 

We don't have the dispersion numbers to know how they truly compare.  Also, we don't have the lower spin numbers of the longer drivers.  But, I'll usually lean toward the side of distance first, then see if you can manage the miss through fitting.  

 

 

[this_is_golf]

I’d take control/consistency any day of the week. If I’m in the fairway instead of the deep rough or trees I’ll give up 15 yards. 

[Valtiel]

Just now, bogeypro said:

We don't have the dispersion numbers to know how they truly compare.  Also, we don't have the lower spin numbers of the longer drivers.  But, I'll usually lean toward the side of distance first, then see if you can manage the miss through fitting.  

 

 

More data is definitely needed and there are other things that can be looked at to achieve optimal launch conditions, but alarms should always go off when you see GCQuad/Foresight + 10-15y distance + someone spinning in the higher 2,000's. It's the siren song of a funky algorithm that doesn't represent golf reality and it gets people into LS heads thinking there are unleavable distance gains on the table. You'll find that trying to reassure yourself of that when hacking through the brush trying to find the ball that toe hooked towards the Pro Shop is far less comforting than when you left Golf Galaxy with your "fitted" driver. 😜 

[anth]

3 hours ago, rooski said:

I've recently been down this path myself, but a data point that helped me feel good about my decision was the PGA Tour Average Driver Spin Rate.

 

Do with that info what you will. 

 

I'm seeing 2600-3000 spin off the middle with my setup and couldn't be happier, although my miss is definitely on the high toe rather than the heel like it might be for you. If my miss was consistently low heel I would probably want a bit lower spin off the middle.

How does the Max handle the high toe hits vs the standard Qi10? 

 

My miss is mostly toe-side with the Qi10 and it's not the most forgiving result...

[HoganHO]

5 minutes ago, anth said:

How does the Max handle the high toe hits vs the standard Qi10? 

 

My miss is mostly toe-side with the Qi10 and it's not the most forgiving result...

It handles it well. Spin stays up so I didn't get a 1500 rpm duck hook.

[anth]

Exactly what I need.

 

I took a guess on the standard Qi10 because I saw a lot of those videos where people were losing significant distance when they tried the Max.  But I suspected this issue might arise, because I think I'm one of those players who needs the spin to keep the ball in the air.  Historically I've seen better results with a head like the Rogue instead of the Epic (for example)...

[rooski]

3 hours ago, anth said:

How does the Max handle the high toe hits vs the standard Qi10? 

 

My miss is mostly toe-side with the Qi10 and it's not the most forgiving result...

 

So my post may have been a bit confusing but I'm not in the Qi10 at this point, I'm in a Ping MAX model atm.

 

However, my coach is a TaylorMade staffer so I have hit all of them and the Max does seem to react pretty well to a toe hit keeping up the spin, at least compared to the LS.

 

IMO I'm a complete fanboy at this point but nothing I've ever hit compares to a a PING driver off the toe, honestly doesn't seem to matter where I hit it 

[craz-e]

go for the consistency and just apply some lip balm to the driver face to bring down the spin. Oops!, did I just say that out aloud? 😬

[bvanlieu]

OP, I  too cruise at 104ish in an un-WRX like driver SS and I know the low to mid 150's ball speed well for myself on Trackman, Mevo+, and GC that I have been fitted on and used with a teaching pro. I now use a GC3 at home. 

 

@Valtiel nails it multiple times: launch high with sub 2K spin and I see some odd carries that don't relate to the ball speed when on FSX, such as mid 150's ball speed and a 10-15y bump in carry. 

 

On course, it just is not there. I want an extra 10-15 on the more open fairways my course has, but I don't chase it with LS models...I train to get more comfy at 106-110 mph. 

 

As to chasing speed and losing some dispersion in general the nuance to me is how narrow/penal are the courses you play regularly? My home course is fairly wide and you can aim away from the OOB places...but carrying an extra 10y helps clear some key bunkers on some holes to change 8i approach into wedges and there are strokes gained to be had there provided you are not also having 3 from the tee holes 😄

 

[Llortamaisey]

I think the answer is that it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. If you want to shoot lower scores, I would try to get fit somewhere that can give you the strokes gained data, or take your fitting numbers somewhere that can calculate the strokes gained data. I think you’ll find that 10-15 yards is a lot to give up over time, no matter how straight it is, and you would shoot better scores with a more optimally fit driver, but I could be wrong. 

[DixieD]

13 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Three main points here IMO:

1) You're really not far off from your ideal spin range. At 102-104mph there is little to be gained from sub 2,500rpm spin (more on this below). 

2) At a lofted down 7* to be launching at 13-15* implies you're definitely adding loft at impact, likely in conjunction with a decently positive AoA. Do you happen to have any dynamic loft and/or AoA numbers to help here? This is where any potential missing yardage likely is. 

3) You're very likely are *not* missing 10-15y actual yards here, and this is especially true for QCQuad. What you're missing is an artificially inflated number based on how GCQuad, and Foresight in general, disproportionately boosts carry and total distance numbers as spin goes down. 

According to Flightscope your 250-255 cary makes perfect sense with your current numbers. Drop your spin to 2,000 while maintaining the same exact launch and you gain like...3 yards of carry and a couple yards of roll. Inconsequential. 

Chasing hypothetical launch monitor-based goldilocks distance numbers ***** people up, especially when the launch monitor is largely lying to you. It isn't until you get into 180mph+ ball speed territory that dropping spin from high 2,000s to low 2,000s can gain you double digit yardage, anything short of that and you're FAR better off forgetting about chasing low spin because it hurts far more than it helps. 

Amen brother