Pressure shift to lead side, conscious move?

[johnrobison]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Others who "feel" it aren't actually pushing themselves forward, they're falling more like I prefer, but they "feel" like they're pushing for whatever reason.

Would that be because they're "braking" pretty hard into P2-P3 to set up the fall?

[Shilgy]

On 2/29/2024 at 11:19 AM, Zitlow said:

Like the rest of the swing it has to be properly trained until you can do it by feel using proprioception. 

 

"Proprioception is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body."

I gotta ask….how is it properly trained?  If not through drills like the “keep the right arm straight “ drill?  Or do you suggest just keep doing it until you get it right?  Seems rather like hunt and peck training which too many attempt to do on their own.   AKA WOOD trials.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

Would that be because they're "braking" pretty hard into P2-P3 to set up the fall?

 

I don't know, to be honest. I've never "felt" that myself, per se.

 

I could speculate… but I generally try not to do that. I see that as more rotational braking, though.

[Zitlow]

37 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I gotta ask….how is it properly trained?  If not through drills like the “keep the right arm straight “ drill?  Or do you suggest just keep doing it until you get it right?  Seems rather like hunt and peck training which too many attempt to do on their own.   AKA WOOD trials.

 

Bradley's video the OP posted is good. It takes patience, don't be in a hurry to get back to the ball. Load the club on plane and then go as easy or as hard as you want. 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

Bradley's video the OP posted is good. It takes patience, don't be in a hurry to get back to the ball. Load the club on plane and then go as easy or as hard as you want. 

 

How do you suggest teaching them to be on plane?  And stay on plane on the way down?

[ZGriswold83]

On 2/28/2024 at 6:38 PM, AFcelica said:

Exactly!! It gave me the feeling that the “weight shift” is vertical not horizontal if that makes sense

 

 

edit oh, just something to look out for. my old release pattern when i was swaying both ways doesn't work with this new proper centered pivot or whatever you want to call it. you might have to figure that out as well. dont get discouraged though it'll be worth it once you figure that out. i'm already up 5mph on my 6iron on my swing speed radar which already went 190 carry with a 30*mb 6iron. can't wait to get back from this business trip and see what it looks like on GCquad. hopfully my SSR isn't lying to me! lol

Yo!!! The idea that I have been swaying and how it made so much sense to me lead me down to a giant revelation. I have always been trying to turn my body....you know, rotate my body. But the feeling I got doing the swaying drills was different for some reason. Tonight, I really think I finally figured out how to pivot. I was an xray tech for about 12 years until I took a new career path into healthcare IT. I lived and breathed my Xray job, I loved it and, like golf, I wanted to be really f****** good at it. My point is, I know human anatomy pretty well, from the thousands of xrays and CT scans I've performed over the years, I have literally seen how the human body is constructed. I got the thought of what if I try to keep my trail femur in the same exact position until my downswing. I kept that idea in my head and tried to rotate my pelvis AROUND the head of my femur... It's all very anatomy driven, it's a perfect analogy and thought for me...these were dry swings, but they were real different. I built tension and when I was close not being able to hold it any longer, I just let my body uncoil. I blacked out in my head and made one of the effortless, best feeling golf swings I had ever taken. I can't wait to go to the range and see if I finally might be on the right road after all these years.

[AFcelica]

Would have to see it in action. Don’t wanna develop a Jason day restricted hip turn

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

How do you suggest teaching them to be on plane?  And stay on plane on the way down?

 

Watch the video closely several times until you can wrap your brain around how Bradley shallows the shaft. He shows some of the reasons people lose the plane like pulling the club, firing the arms, rotating too early, pushing off the right foot, power shifting etc etc.

 

Edited March 2, 2024 by Zitlow

[MonteScheinblum]

23 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Watch the video closely several times until you can wrap your brain around how Bradley shallows the shaft. He shows some of the reasons people lose the plane like pulling the club, firing the arms, rotating too early, pushing off the right foot, power shifting etc etc.

 

You know what.  You are the worst if cowards.  You sit there behind your anonymous keyboard taking consistent pot shots at what I teach and my character.  Then when someone asks you to post your swing or your teaching credentials, it’s a room full of crickets.  
 

Most on this forum will agree I have had a pretty thick skin over the years There’s a Grand Canyon sized pit between getting butt hurt when someone disagrees with you and having enough of a cowardice keyboard warrior who takes snide pot shots in nearly every post.  

 

Again I congratulate you for pushing me to the point where I turn into the flaming a-hole in response.  
 

Who has a more questionable character?  The person who grows tired of the anonymous slings and arrows and fires back, or the anonymous poster who can’t go two consecutive posts without a thinly veiled shot. Then ignores the calls to put up or shut up.  I guarantee you would not say the things you say here to my face, because you are a coward.

 

Again I congratulate you for winning and causing me to be flustered and angry.

 

The non regulars on the forum need to know you are the tiniest little man who has less knowledge about golf and the swing than a 4 year old  has of the mating rituals of the fruit fly.

 

Speaking of 4 year olds, go back to the kids table, the adults are trying to have a conversation. 

[golferdude54]

Snead and Trevino in their primes. Can't get that much hip abduction and external rotation of the left knee without a lot of pressure shifting.

[Valtiel]

As has been stated i'm a definite believer in "yes it's conscious if you aren't used to the concept" and there are a few supplemental bits that go with that related to the "how". 

If you're a chronic slider/overshifter into the trail side then it's usually not enough to simply consciously attempt to pressure your lead side because you might not be able to, or you might have to make too strong an exaggerated move to make it happen. Addressing the overshift/slide and getting "properly" loaded into your trail side if the key, that is where the weight vs. pressure distinction come into play that you pointed out @ZGriswold83. The shifting of pressure being something far more subtle than shifting weight, an ounce of the latter being worth a pound of the former. 

If you have any notable club path problems (which often include wrist problems) then the problematic positions the club can get into will also crash the pressure shift party as your body will always automatically attempt compensations to get to the ball, and this often includes a stalling or interrupting of conscious attempts to perform a specific movement. These are always the "I can't stop this from happening" sorts of moves often complained about. 

Understanding the general framework of a proper swing sequence, including the pressure shifts and when they happen, is just the first step. Understanding and learning how to do it correctly is the next, followed by actively identifying the tendencies that keep you from doing it consistently, if any.  The was @iacas describes it is definitely how I try to approach it: " I like to see weight and pressure shift back early, shift forward early (with more of a "fall" move and not much of a "push" at all), and then spike at the right time in the right dimensions on the downswing."

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Watch the video closely several times until you can wrap your brain around how Bradley shallows the shaft. He shows some of the reasons people lose the plane like pulling the club, firing the arms, rotating too early, pushing off the right foot, power shifting etc etc.

 

And yet zero thoughts on HOW. To change from you. Reasons are fine but are not fixes.

[GungHoGolf]

13 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

I got the thought of what if I try to keep my trail femur in the same exact position until my downswing. I kept that idea in my head and tried to rotate my pelvis AROUND the head of my femur

It’s great you’re having success with that thought, but what you’re describing (backswing rotation centered on a stationary trail hip joint) is a common fault in amateurs’ hip rotation and leads to EE. Pro hip rotation is centered on the center of the pelvis. AMG calls the wrong way the Wrench Pivot (starts at 5:40):

 

 

[Zitlow]

The whole golf swing is about synchronizing the lower body, upper body, arms, hands and club into one unified cohesive motion getting as much energy out of your body as you can into the clubhead. 

 

The shaft shallows and the left foot is pressured simultaneously. Pressure the left foot before the club shallows you’re out of sync and trying to play catch up with the arms. 

 

Rory's right side pivots around his leg leg axis like a gate swinging around a post. 

 

 

Hit it off the right side. If the right arm swings independently it's out of sync with the upper body. The right arm is swung into position by the right shoulder. 

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

25 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Rory's right side pivots around his leg leg axis like a gate swinging around a post. 

If you watch the video you posted you will see that when Rory does his demo his lead leg is not a 'post' as his lead hip moves back away from the target line a fair amount. 

Edited March 2, 2024 by Nels55

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

And yet zero thoughts on HOW. To change from you. Reasons are fine but are not fixes.

 

His whole swing philosophy is basically “just make a.good golf swing.” If you’re doing something wrong, his answers are “do it the right way”.

 

“But, sir, I am over-bending my trail elbow and moving the arms too far around me” “Well, then, use the arms the right way.”

 

“My problem is that I can’t get to the front side in time.” “Okay, then what you need to do is synchronize when you get to the front side with the rest of your swing.”

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

If you watch the video you posted you will see that when Rory does his demo his lead leg is not a 'post' as his lead hip moves back away from the target line a fair amount. 

 

The right side is coming like a freight train. You don't have to micro manage the left side, it knows what to do. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

14 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

The right side is coming like a freight train. You don't have to micro manage the left side, it knows what to do. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL the lead leg is not a 'post'.  You were wrong about that weren't you?  You crack me up!  Thanks for a good laugh!

[Zitlow]

18 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

LOL the lead leg is not a 'post'.  You were wrong about that weren't you?  You crack me up!  Thanks for a good laugh!

 

 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

The right side is coming like a freight train. You don't have to micro manage the left side, it knows what to do. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is why you keep getting criticism....this is irresponsibly *damaging* to tell most golfers in ways that you either don't care or are ignorant to. It is objectively backwards in such a way that suggests you don't know what it is you're looking at and can not describe correctly. In the video you posted his right leg is fairly weightlessly being pulled towards the target by the forces created by the left side, *learned* forces that absolutely do not come automatically to most, especially to a right handed/right side dominant player.

I'm going to do now what you failed to do when asked previously which is to back this up with data using pressure mat data with a variety of different swing types thanks to some public YouTube content. If you want to dispute my interpretations of this data then please do, or at least *engage* in the topic beyond just lobbing a couple sentences then disappearing when anyone confronts you. Should you chose to disappear again I am going to link this post in response to any of your repeated attempts at dangerously misrepresenting how fundamentals of the golf swing work, especially ones that stand to harm the average player looking to improve.



Luke List first; big hitter with a wide base and very balanced use of forces in the downswing.

- Frames 1 to 2 shows a very typical balanced address position and a quick increase of pressure to 75% on the trail leg by P2.
- Frames 2 to 3 shows a typical pattern of many "Jason Day" style big hitters in that pressure spikes to mid/upper 80% right before the backswing completes, a spike that sets up...
- Frames 3 to 4 shows the immediate shift off that loaded trail leg, and this is where pressure mats are very handy because this isn't a "push" as you might expect, because that would register as a sharp spike in pressure on the rear foot. Instead the slight increase from 75% to 85% during P3.5 to P4 sets up the ability to "fall" towards the front side with a slight lateral bump. It's a controlled increase to allow for momentum to start the other way.
- Frames 4-6 down through impact show a consistent 80-85% pressure on the front side which is used to create rotation/torque and some vertical force while the rear leg is simply along for the ride. Nothing is "coming through like a freight train" at all, this is like being dragged in a little red wagon towards the target.



Justin Thomas next; easily the opposite side of the spectrum from List with probably the most "active" right side on the tour off the tee.

- Frames 1 to 2 again show a balanced starting point but with less lateral pressure shift. Face on videos show that Thomas does stay quite centered in this initial turn.
- Frames 2 to 3 are more of the same, even slightly decreasing pressure on the back leg, although not significantly.
- Frames 3 to 4 show a similar slightly late spike on the trail leg to setup the shift in pressure in transition, although much less than List only peaking at 70%. The face on video shows this as well again as a slightly bump before transition.
- Frames 4 to 5 are wild in that he shifts so much pressure into his front side so quickly that he goes from 70/30 to 20/80 in a blink. This sets up the tremendous ground force usage he is known for.
- Frames 5 to 6 are the further build up of those forces...
- Frames 6 to 7 then show the very interesting effect of big vertical ground force, that is the pinging of weight back on to the rear foot. This is NOT a use of the right leg for any kind of power, nor is it some conscious move to reverse his pressure shift to start using the rear leg....its simply the Newton's 3rd Law causing a momentary spike in pressure on the back foot as the front foot leaps off the ground. Obviously he can't actually be using that right foot for much because he's up on this tippy toe, this is all still entirely left side driven forces with the right side just catching the blowback.



Adam Scott next. If Thomas is the king of vertical then Scott if the king of lateral.

- Frames 1-2 show a perfect 50/50 address position and a very quick shift to 85/15 by P2.
- Frames 2-3 show the maximum pressure of 90/10 being reached by left arm parallel.
- Frames 3-5 show the "falling" type of re-centering move @iacas spoke of earlier as the peak of 90/10 allows for a smooth decrease towards 60/40 in transition.
- Frames 6-7 show the continued increase in lead side pressure to 10/90 which continues through impact.

I have more of these but they'd only be degrees of difference between these three torque, vertical, and lateral based swings. The main takeaway is that your idea of "lead side just knows what to do and the trail side barrels through like a freight train" is categorically false and extremely misleading, especially to the average player that struggles with knowing how and what to do with the lead side, something we can see is VERY active in all of these players. At the pro level the trail side is either passively being dragged through impact by the pressure and rotation of the front side, or its catching the rebound of vertical forces, again all being created by the front side. Rory's comment in your video about "hitting it with his trail side" is a classic example of this that Jon Rahm explains very well and it is not to be taken as confirmation of a busted swing theory.

Edited March 3, 2024 by Valtiel

[MonteScheinblum]

32 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

This is why you keep getting criticism....this is irresponsibly *damaging* to tell most golfers in ways that you either don't care or are ignorant to. It is objectively backwards in such a way that suggests you don't know what it is you're looking at and can not describe correctly. In the video you posted his right leg is fairly weightlessly being pulled towards the target by the forces created by the left side, *learned* forces that absolutely do not come automatically to most, especially to a right handed/right side dominant player.

I'm going to do now what you failed to do when asked previously which is to back this up with data using pressure mat data with a variety of different swing types thanks to some public YouTube content. If you want to dispute my interpretations of this data then please do, or at least *engage* in the topic beyond just lobbing a couple sentences then disappearing when anyone confronts you. Should you chose to disappear again I am going to link this post in response to any of your repeated attempts at dangerously misrepresenting how fundamentals of the golf swing work, especially ones that stand to harm the average player looking to improve.



Luke List first; big hitter with a wide base and very balanced use of forces in the downswing.

- Frames 1 to 2 shows a very typical balanced address position and a quick increase of pressure to 75% on the trail leg by P2.
- Frames 2 to 3 shows a typical pattern of many "Jason Day" style big hitters in that pressure spikes to mid/upper 80% right before the backswing completes, a spike that sets up...
- Frames 3 to 4 shows the immediate shift off that loaded trail leg, and this is where pressure mats are very handy because this isn't a "push" as you might expect, because that would register as a sharp spike in pressure on the rear foot. Instead the slight increase from 75% to 85% during P3.5 to P4 sets up the ability to "fall" towards the front side with a slight lateral bump. It's a controlled increase to allow for momentum to start the other way.
- Frames 4-6 down through impact show a consistent 80-85% pressure on the front side which is used to create rotation/torque and some vertical force while the rear leg is simply along for the ride. Nothing is "coming through like a freight train" at all, this is like being dragged in a little red wagon towards the target.



Justin Thomas next; easily the opposite side of the spectrum from List with probably the most "active" right side on the tour off the tee.

- Frames 1 to 2 again show a balanced starting point but with less lateral pressure shift. Face on videos show that Thomas does stay quite centered in this initial turn.
- Frames 2 to 3 are more of the same, even slightly decreasing pressure on the back leg, although not significantly.
- Frames 3 to 4 show a similar slightly late spike on the trail leg to setup the shift in pressure in transition, although much less than List only peaking at 70%. The face on video shows this as well again as a slightly bump before transition.
- Frames 4 to 5 are wild in that he shifts so much pressure into his front side so quickly that he goes from 70/30 to 20/80 in a blink. This sets up the tremendous ground force usage he is known for.
- Frames 5 to 6 are the further build up of those forces...
- Frames 6 to 7 then show the very interesting effect of big vertical ground force, that is the pinging of weight back on to the rear foot. This is NOT a use of the right leg for any kind of power, nor is it some conscious move to reverse his pressure shift to start using the rear leg....its simply the Newton's 3rd Law causing a momentary spike in pressure on the back foot as the front foot leaps off the ground. Obviously he can't actually be using that right foot for much because he's up on this tippy toe, this is all still entirely left side driven forces with the right side just catching the blowback.



Adam Scott next. If Thomas is the king of vertical then Scott if the king of lateral.

- Frames 1-2 show a perfect 50/50 address position and a very quick shift to 85/15 by P2.
- Frames 2-3 show the maximum pressure of 90/10 being reached by left arm parallel.
- Frames 3-5 show the "falling" type of re-centering move @iacas spoke of earlier as the peak of 90/10 allows for a smooth decrease towards 60/40 in transition.
- Frames 6-7 show the continued increase in lead side pressure to 10/90 which continues through impact.

I have more of these but they'd only be degrees of difference between these three torque, vertical, and lateral based swings. The main takeaway is that your idea of "lead side just knows what to do and the trail side barrels through like a freight train" is categorically false and extremely misleading, especially to the average player that struggles with knowing how and what to do with the lead side, something we can see is VERY active in all of these players. At the pro level the trail side is either passively being dragged through impact by the pressure and rotation of the front side, or its catching the rebound of vertical forces, again all being created by the front side. Rory's comment in your video about "hitting it with his trail side" is a classic example of this that Jon Rahm explains very well and it is not to be taken as confirmation of a busted swing theory.

Excellent stuff

[Ajgaguy83]

42 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Excellent stuff

@Valtiel thanks for this. This, and similar detailed posts from others, who contribute factual information is what makes these forums such a great place to learn (something we all can do, well if we chose too).
 

In other news, humanity is, well…… interesting. 

[MBAndrews21]

The amount of arguing about golf technique never ceases to amaze me

[ZGriswold83]

23 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

It’s great you’re having success with that thought, but what you’re describing (backswing rotation centered on a stationary trail hip joint) is a common fault in amateurs’ hip rotation and leads to EE. Pro hip rotation is centered on the center of the pelvis. AMG calls the wrong way the Wrench Pivot (starts at 5:40):

 

 

This is exactly why I'm going to end up giving up on golf. Every time I think I have something figured out, it's an incorrect movement.

[ZGriswold83]

On 3/1/2024 at 9:21 PM, AFcelica said:

Would have to see it in action. Don’t wanna develop a Jason day restricted hip turn

I have a full length mirror set up, and that thought actually got my trail hip deeper than I normally do. But, agreed, I will end up posting a swing here eventually, just need to find some time.

[Simpsonia]

So here's one thing I'm curious about if any of you pressure shift gurus would care to opine. As I work on my own shift, I've experienced at least both of the two extremes when it comes to shift patterns, as I felt them. They are what my limited vocabulary of feels can only describe as a "hard post" and a "soft post".

 

The "hard post" would be more like Scottie or DJ, in that there is little to no flexion gain in the lead leg, and the lead leg resists/pushes immediately as soon as pressure is planted. As soon as pressure is established in the lead foot, you can start pivoting immediately. The pressure is often more in the heels than the toes with this type of pressure transfer. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find a pressure trace for Scottie, but I have to imagine that he gets 95+ (or even 100%) pressure on the lead leg almost immediately. DJ doesn't get quite as extreme with the ratio, but he establishes lead pressure (70%) extremely early around P4.25. There is can usually be some small amount of early extension in this pressure transfer as there is less time to get that lead hip back. This is the type of pressure transfer that a baseball pitcher might use, Javelin throw, or a boxer with a straight cross. 

 

The alternative is a "soft post" which is more re-establishing pressure a little more gradually before pushing hard with the leg. There's some small flexion gain in the lead knee as that gradual pressure is established, and pressure starts far more in the toes. Those who feel more of a "jump" are probably in this camp, as you need to re-establish pressure with the ground before you can 'jump'. Golfers who have higher vertical/rotational forces than lateral are probably more of this style (JT, Kyle Berkshire, Cam Young). This gradual re-establishing of lead side pressure also allows more time to get that lead hip back more. The analogy to other sports might be a boxer with an uppercut. This is probably seen more in junior/smaller statured golfers recruiting the "bigger muscles". 

 

I guess my question is what their thoughts are on the different patterns and if there are any recommendations about necessary matchups, or if one pattern is more desirable than others. Personally, as a tall guy with an even taller wingspan, I've found my greatest speed with the "hard post", but struggle with tempo/sequencing a bit as I feel like I have so much less time in transition. I've found more transition time with the "soft post" but struggle with speed and can struggle with hooks more in this mode. 

[ZGriswold83]

@AFcelica
@MonteScheinblum

Couple of swings, honestly felt awful this morning.

 

 

 

[txbadger]

12 hours ago, MBAndrews21 said:

The amount of arguing about golf technique never ceases to amaze me

the amount of arguing about golf technique from those who have never taught it to anyone never ceases to amaze me

[ZGriswold83]

3 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

This is exactly why I'm going to end up giving up on golf. Every time I think I have something figured out, it's an incorrect movement.

@GungHoGolf

This wasn't really a joke. It's always funny for low handicap golfers who 'get it', I have tried every means necessary and still can't figure it out. I used to be good, I used to enjoy golf. Now I'm closer than ever to actually just hanging it up, one frustrating trial and error after another.

Edited March 3, 2024 by ZGriswold83

[GungHoGolf]

2 minutes ago, ZGriswold83 said:

@GungHoGolf

This wasn't really a joke. It's always funny for low handicap golfers who 'get it', I have tried every means necessary and still can't figure it out. I used to be good, I used to enjoy golf. Now I'm closer than ever to actually just hanging it up, one frustrating trial and error after another.

Sorry, I was definitely laughing with you, not at you. Low cap golfers aren’t immune to the slumps, frustrating trials, and errors you’re describing.

 

Golf at any level is a process and struggle sometimes. Just when you think you have it, it slips through your fingers like a handful of sand.