PXG sues Edel

[Lucas6688]

Totally new here. Bad first topic, but interested in peoples thoughts and ideas. 

 

https://www.sginews.com/EMS_Base/EMS_Excerpt.aspx?tTargetUrl=/Content/parsons-xtreme-golf-sues-over-irons.aspx

 

https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/15096097

 

-L 

[dmeeksDC]

Case was filed a while ago, Nov. 2022. I don’t know how large a net PXG is seeking to establish with its patents, but  as a golfer who has played both brands I don’t view Edel and PXG irons as similar designs. Small differences are meaningful in distinguishing between golf club designs.  
 

The multiple weights in the Edel irons are not designed to be set once and left alone like the weights in the PXG irons. PXG itself says its weights are for swing weighting only and should not be changed by the player. Edel’s weights are meant to be moved and indeed Edel encourages golfers to move them around to affect performance. And you can order heavier weights to affect performance more. 

[WristySwing]

11 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

Case was filed a while ago, Nov. 2022. I don’t know how large a net PXG is seeking to establish with its patents, but  as a golfer who has played both brands I don’t view Edel and PXG irons as similar designs. Small differences are meaningful in distinguishing between golf club designs.  
 

The multiple weights in the Edel irons are not designed to be set once and left alone like the weights in the PXG irons. PXG itself says its weights are for swing weighting only and should not be changed by the player. Edel’s weights are meant to be moved and indeed Edel encourages golfers to move them around to affect performance. And you can order heavier weights to affect performance more. 

 

I'm not sure how pertinent this is based on the time of the litigation, but supposedly the Gen7s are meant to be moveable weights to assist with toe and heel strikes.  I am sure someone will be able to dig up the actual origin of this, but from my own memory, Tommy Armour has the original irons that did this.  The 845 VCG.  I remember selling these in 2007/2008/2009 or so at the big box store I worked at.  They were ugly as sin, and I am not even sure if the sliding weight helped much, but it was possible to adjust it. 

 

[dmeeksDC]

51 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

I'm not sure how pertinent this is based on the time of the litigation, but supposedly the Gen7s are meant to be moveable weights to assist with toe and heel strikes.  I am sure someone will be able to dig up the actual origin of this, but from my own memory, Tommy Armour has the original irons that did this.  The 845 VCG.  I remember selling these in 2007/2008/2009 or so at the big box store I worked at.  They were ugly as sin, and I am not even sure if the sliding weight helped much, but it was possible to adjust it. 

 

Wow. Great pull. And you are right: Those are hideous!

 

[RSLP]

Most likely a license fee to be negotiated.
 

I am basing this on the facts:

 

Doug Coors (the beer family) purchased the company from David Edel, after the case was filed.

 

Coors advertised that David has “no” involvement in Edel clubs any longer.

 

in addiction to metal machining truths, golf clubs have to fit in a “box” provided by the USGA.

 

Most patent infringements settle for a royalty fee, and how much can Edel really be selling?

 

real question is, how hard is Ping watching this?

 

[snagy2000]

Just wait for Gen7, it will make sense...

[harp98]

When are gen 7 due out...?

[jholz]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:25 AM, RSLP said:

Most likely a license fee to be negotiated.
 

I am basing this on the facts:

 

Doug Coors (the beer family) purchased the company from David Edel, after the case was filed.

 

Coors advertised that David has “no” involvement in Edel clubs any longer.

 

in addiction to metal machining truths, golf clubs have to fit in a “box” provided by the USGA.

 

Most patent infringements settle for a royalty fee, and how much can Edel really be selling?

 

real question is, how hard is Ping watching this?

 

 

Wow, really. I had no idea Coors was involved. The only worse thing would be a Monfort. 

 

I'll take two Stapletons and an Anschutz against those guys any day.  

[Rtkelly2183]

if my buddy shows up with irons that have moveable weights, he's going to have a looonnnggg, miserable day. He might even cry.

 

the panda scheme on the weights has been a turn off, so glad PXG offers double chrome/black now on the P/XP and the 0317line is veerrryyy good looking. if they throw in some moveable weights i'm going to 🤮. interchangeable weights as easy as the hybrids/woods would be a dream come true though.

[dmeeksDC]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:25 AM, RSLP said:

Most likely a license fee to be negotiated.
 

I am basing this on the facts:

 

Doug Coors (the beer family) purchased the company from David Edel, after the case was filed.

 

Coors advertised that David has “no” involvement in Edel clubs any longer.

 

in addiction to metal machining truths, golf clubs have to fit in a “box” provided by the USGA.

 

Most patent infringements settle for a royalty fee, and how much can Edel really be selling?

 

real question is, how hard is Ping watching this?

 

I would not assume Edel will end up paying anything. Lawsuits don’t cost a lot to file, takes a lot more to win. Patent infringement is difficult to prove period, more so in a business with so much similarity. I read through the case. I’d think Edel would fight it and they would have a great chance of getting it dismissed. It’s a serious stretch to claim the Edel moveable weights are infringing on PXG’s patent just because the PXG irons have multiple weights. 

[hammergolf]

5 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

I would not assume Edel will end up paying anything. Lawsuits don’t cost a lot to file, takes a lot more to win. Patent infringement is difficult to prove period, more so in a business with so much similarity. I read through the case. I’d think Edel would fight it and they would have a great chance of getting it dismissed. It’s a serious stretch to claim the Edel moveable weights are infringing on PXG’s patent just because the PXG irons have multiple weights. 

Unfortunately sometimes the law and facts don’t matter. If a bigger company with bigger pockets can drag out the process the smaller company can’t afford to keep fighting it. 

[SEP1006]

On 3/7/2024 at 2:55 PM, snagy2000 said:

Just wait for Gen7, it will make sense...

 

 

Well cat's out of the bag now !!!!!!

[dmeeksDC]

On 3/7/2024 at 3:55 PM, snagy2000 said:

Just wait for Gen7, it will make sense...

This is what I think it is: it is a legal maneuver because PXG wants to go to moveable weights. Maybe they were worried Edel will sue them?

 

Still won’t have any bearing on the case. If Doug Coors wants to fight it, PXG will have a hard time proving Edel’s design is an infringement. No one who has played the two brands would say it is the same thing. Remember, PXG sued TaylorMade and TM sued right back. Ultimately TM settled to make PXG go away but that case changed nothing. TM kept right on doing what they were doing. 

[awtryau89]

13 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Well cat's out of the bag now !!!!!!

I posted this in the Gen7 thread in the pre release section. Most PXG reps keep things tight but I have a friend with an inside source. Don’t think the 7s will have consumer moveable weights but PXG supposedly will be able to do it in fittings and dial everything in for you then you order. This is continuing down the road to support their stores and custom fitting staff. Even so I’m sure their will be many on here doing some work on their own with them if what I’ve heard does transpire. 

[Drrussell]

If I were PXG it makes sense. Edel made a superior product and got it to market faster. Of course, Edel has had changeable weights in their SLS01 irons since 2017 or so…which makes the lawsuit just silly. As someone else said, PXG doesn’t want their weights to be changed after they are set and they don’t sell the weights separately. Edel on the other hand, will adjust weights for fitting and they will sell the weights so users can test on their own. 

 

I tested both PXG and Edel before I embarked on my standard to single length conversion project. 

 

Will be interesting to see how this one works out. 

[CROUSE99]

Golfworks has been  offering iron heads with changeable weights for a long time.  Weights in iron heads are hardly new tech.

[snagy2000]

Lawsuit is a combination of the weights and foam filled heads IMO.

[ChipNRun]

One benefit of a lawsuit that takes off is that the plaintiff - and sometimes the defendant - get free advertising related to the feud.

 

[Lucas6688]

so a couple things. 

 

1. pxg sued taylormade because of the use of the foam in the heads. Taylormade being a costom to the litigation process and kept making the product. (after suing Adams, Adams ignoring, then deciding to just buy the company rather than continuing the litigation) After a time PXG realized it wasn't going anywhere, and decided to steal Taylormade's wood tech.  (namely something about having the carbon crown "above the face") which was a taylormade patent. Then taylormade sued, Then after a time, they decided to do a "good good" on the litigation and continue on their own businesses. I think this is why ....

A) PXG woods are coming a long way very quickly, but its taken iterations to figure out how to use the tech taylormade has patents on. (this would be gen 3 woods (proto series), change in carbon fiber tech, and dampening.   

B) the new blackops looks like a taylormade woods  

 

2. from memory, pxg filed a patent for exterior weights on irons in 2014. I think the companies that did it before did not patent it. And companies that did it after, they just shut an eye. Now Edel was growing after their sale to coors, and PXG wants to crack down before they make it too big, and where its established in the industry that they never enforced their patent.  

 

3. I heard Edel has stopped production of their Pro line. Not sure i should be making it public knowledge though. 

 

would love for somebody to clear it all up. I love the industry drama LOL

[dmeeksDC]

It does not matter if past uses were patented or not, it matters if it already exists. You cannot patent something that already exists — have to prove it is “novel” and not simply another version of something that exists. 
 

Also, patent applications require that all similar prior products be noted in detail and that the applicant show how the new product is different enough to be worthy of a patent. Patent applicants will often fail to mention all prior and relevant products and if the patent is approved based on an improper filing, that becomes part of the fight when stuff like this happens. Patents can be deemed void after the fact if they were approved based on false or incomplete information provided by the applicant. Foam in golf clubs and moveable weights existed before 2014. 

[sbmmm33]

On 3/11/2024 at 9:27 PM, Lucas6688 said:

 

3. I heard Edel has stopped production of their Pro line. Not sure i should be making it public knowledge though. 

 

 

The SMS Pro (no foam) or the SMS (foam) line? Or both?  I have been strongly considering the SMS Pro because it has weights that I can manipulate, minimal offset, a players cavity (without foam), a more square toe, and a Srixon-like tri-sole. 

 

BTW, in the 90's, I used to play in Minis around the country and Canada playing with a similar version of the Golfworks' current model photo below because I could manipulate the weights. However, the weight ports of the 90's models allowed multiple round disks to be epoxied in the ports to change the weights and were not a screw-in design. However, the the Maltby screw-ins existed well before 2014. See the Wayback Machine Dec 15, 2010 - https://web.archive.org/web/20101215194404/http://golfworks.com/category.asp_Q_C_E_1_A_c2c_E_ln

 

[sbmmm33]

And the weights for those irons from the Wayback Machine, Dec 16, 2010 -

https://web.archive.org/web/20101216013650/http://golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MA002G_A_MALTBY+KE4+SCREW+WEIGHTS+AND+WRENCH+_A_c2p_E_cs

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by sbmmm33
Link fixed

[sbmmm33]

On 3/7/2024 at 3:55 PM, snagy2000 said:

Just wait for Gen7, it will make sense...

 

I really appreciate PXG and I think they have a lot of smart people.  However, from what I've heard so far, Gen7 won't offer want I want in irons. I acknowledge that I will be an exception to customers who just want to be fit and be done. In fact, many of the best playing Pros don't have a complete understanding of what they're being fit into. They just accept their fitter's advice and go.  However, some are very knowledgable and sensitive to the changes. I am the latter, although no longer a Pro.

 

I think having capabilities to move clubhead center of mass can -

1) affect closure rate through impact and is a really useful lever in fitting. 

2) affect energy transfer efficiency, resulting in a better smash factor, etc.

3) have a very beneficial effect on lie angle and therefore, better (more consistent) turf interaction. Why use lie angle as a lever to manipulate a desired start line? Dynamic lie angle may already be diverging from the horizon (parallel to ground) and manipulating closure rate can have the desired start line effect effect without compromising better turf interaction.

4) more...

 

Will PXG Gen7 offer this? It sounds like like it, but I want to make my own changes. Some of those mass property changes might be in different parts of the set, e.g. long irons vs. mid irons vs. short irons vs. 60* wedge, and some may change over time, and some may change in magnitude (weight changes in the same port, etc.)...and I won't really know what works at any stage because I won't be able to manipulate weight ports like Edel currently can.  

 

Have to wait and see with PXG Gen7 irons, but I don't want a fitter with limited time to be the final word...for me. Still better for the customers who have this fitting lever available to them, though.

 

 

[Chrischo555]

PXG has always been pretty vigilant at protecting their patents fueled by Parsons' basically unlimited wealth. From what I've seen they usually try to settle for a % of sales of the "copied" product so if you're a big edel fan you probably don't have to worry about the clubs leaving the market. Really doubt PXG would even see edel as a competitor, probably just trying to earn an extra buck where they can.

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, Chrischo555 said:

PXG has always been pretty vigilant at protecting their patents

Like every other company with the means to do so.  

[20footputt]

On 3/11/2024 at 8:27 PM, Lucas6688 said:

so a couple things. 

 

1. pxg sued taylormade because of the use of the foam in the heads. Taylormade being a costom to the litigation process and kept making the product. (after suing Adams, Adams ignoring, then deciding to just buy the company rather than continuing the litigation) After a time PXG realized it wasn't going anywhere, and decided to steal Taylormade's wood tech.  (namely something about having the carbon crown "above the face") which was a taylormade patent. Then taylormade sued, Then after a time, they decided to do a "good good" on the litigation and continue on their own businesses. I think this is why ....

A) PXG woods are coming a long way very quickly, but its taken iterations to figure out how to use the tech taylormade has patents on. (this would be gen 3 woods (proto series), change in carbon fiber tech, and dampening.   

B) the new blackops looks like a taylormade woods  

 

2. from memory, pxg filed a patent for exterior weights on irons in 2014. I think the companies that did it before did not patent it. And companies that did it after, they just shut an eye. Now Edel was growing after their sale to coors, and PXG wants to crack down before they make it too big, and where its established in the industry that they never enforced their patent.  

 

3. I heard Edel has stopped production of their Pro line. Not sure i should be making it public knowledge though. 

 

would love for somebody to clear it all up. I love the industry drama LOL

new black ops doesn’t look like any recent tm drivers and they couldn’t outperform my 3 year old stealth plus,

I just got paid 200 as proof.

[Trouble_shooter]

Im a huge edel fan. Pxg needs to relax. Every club designer grabs anothers design and makes tweaks. Parsons tried getting the ball rolling on 2,500 dollar irons using the "finest" materials and fell flat on their face. Im sure they make quality equipment, every brand does really. But cmon, let your product line speak for itself. 

[Masterhacker]

Every club company copies the others if something new is found.  The ping answer is the most copied club in history.  SC made their company by copying putters.  

[thaar]

On 3/8/2024 at 12:20 PM, jholz said:

 

Wow, really. I had no idea Coors was involved. The only worse thing would be a Monfort. 

 

I'll take two Stapletons and an Anschutz against those guys any day.  

 

I played golf with Doug Coors years ago at my buddy's CC. Nice guy, but it seemed there wasn't much worry about risk when it came to business. He had recently moved back from Austin after building a surf ranch. At the time, I had no idea he was looking into buying Edel, so when I read about that, I was surprised. Money seemed to be no object to him (he bought a house right on the course that he scraped to rebuild), but hopefully he can do something good with Edel.

[J13]

This lawsuit had nothing to do with moveable weights.  It was about having access to the cavity of the iron behind one of the weights.  The patent office knows nothing about golf and awards patents that have no business being patents.  This is why you see ports into irons on the toe.