Ivy to Pro - golf next???

[golferdad8]

James Nicholas is one of a kind…so inspiring! 

[Tugu]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:30 PM, Golfquant said:

https://www.instagram.com/kornferrytour/reel/DDVMWHJSCH4/?hl=en

 

I guess it can happen

Isn't he T117 after Round 1? With 5 PGA cards to give out? 

 

Are we counting development tour as PGA? The coach at Duke did it years ago already, no?

Edited December 15, 2024 by Tugu

[jigsaw1011]

1 hour ago, Tugu said:

Isn't he T117 after Round 1? With 5 PGA cards to give out? 

 

Are we counting development tour as PGA? If so, the coach at Duke did it years ago already, no?

He had status on the DP world tour this past season. Last summer my son played in a couple of tournaments with him in the field. In both tournaments Nicholas set the course record. He can play. His father is a big deal MD in the NYC and his practice is his sponsor. He has the money and the talent. I think it just a question of when but I think he would be in the same place if he went to a non Ivy school. 

[Tugu]

On 12/13/2024 at 10:36 PM, jigsaw1011 said:

He had status on the DP world tour this past season. Last summer my son played in a couple of tournaments with him in the field. In both tournaments Nicholas set the course record. He can play. His father is a big deal MD in the NYC and his practice is his sponsor. He has the money and the talent. I think it just a question of when but I think he would be in the same place if he went to a non Ivy school. 

I was just wondering if development tour constitutes PGA tour is all. IVY to PGA tour was done 20+ years ago.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Tugu

[jigsaw1011]

47 minutes ago, Tugu said:

I was just wondering if development tour constitutes PGA tour is all. If so, IVY to PGA tour was done 20+ years ago.

I think full status on the PGA tour as “making it”. Lots of players Ivy and non kick around on developmental tours and make a living playing professionally but seem to be all striving for the PGA tour card.

[happygolucky]

1 hour ago, jigsaw1011 said:

He had status on the DP world tour this past season. Last summer my son played in a couple of tournaments with him in the field. In both tournaments Nicholas set the course record. He can play. His father is a big deal MD in the NYC and his practice is his sponsor. He has the money and the talent. I think it just a question of when but I think he would be in the same place if he went to a non Ivy school. 

Even with talent, it also helps when you have resources (money). While in college, I heard he flew to Florida to practice during the northeast winters. 

[Tugu]

On 12/14/2024 at 12:11 AM, jigsaw1011 said:

I think full status on the PGA tour as “making it”. Lots of players Ivy and non kick around on developmental tours and make a living playing professionally but seem to be all striving for the PGA tour card.

So the IVY to PGA tour ceiling is yet to be breached again. I'm sceptical but be glad for anyone who gets to the big dance.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Tugu

[Golfquant]

6 hours ago, Tugu said:

Are we counting development tour as PGA? If so, the coach at Duke did it years ago already, no?

 

4 hours ago, Tugu said:

I was just wondering if development tour constitutes PGA tour is all. If so, IVY to PGA tour was done 20+ years ago.

 

3 hours ago, Tugu said:

So the IVY to PGA tour ceiling is yet to be breached.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/player/10117/bob-heintz/career

 

he competed in 155 PGA Tour (not "developmental") events and made 60 cuts

 

 

[Tugu]

6 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

 

 

 

https://www.pgatour.com/player/10117/bob-heintz/career

 

he competed in 155 PGA Tour (not "developmental") events and made 60 cuts

 

 

Isn't this what I said? He's the Duke coach I referred to. Though I do believe he got his actual PGA tour card on 3 separate occasions. 

 

So we will see if James Nicholas can also make it to the PGA tour.

[Golfquant]

2 hours ago, Tugu said:

Isn't this what I said? He's the Duke coach I referred to. Though I do believe he got his actual PGA tour card on 3 separate occasions. 

 

So we will see if James Nicholas can also make it to the PGA tour.

I guess I misunderstood

 

I think the ceiling for Ivy has more to do with the caliber of player that typically commits to playing for that league, not so much the lack of opportunity for development (i.e. it's the player, not the school and what it has to offer)

 

But I could be wrong

[Tugu]

9 hours ago, Golfquant said:

I guess I misunderstood

 

I think the ceiling for Ivy has more to do with the caliber of player that typically commits to playing for that league, not so much the lack of opportunity for development (i.e. it's the player, not the school and what it has to offer)

 

But I could be wrong

To suggest one's schooling environment has little to no bearing on a person's future trajectory in golf is to ignore alot of data that suggests near perfect correlation.

 

T33 now and within reach. It would be a massive achievement.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Tugu

[Golfquant]

4 hours ago, Tugu said:

To suggest one's schooling environment has little to no bearing on a person's future trajectory in golf is to ignore alot of data that suggests near perfect correlation.

 

T33 now and within reach. It would be a massive achievement.

do you think if the best junior players in the world (who have already made cuts in professional events) went to an Ivy that they would ultimately still end up becoming PGA Tour pros?

Edited December 14, 2024 by Golfquant

[Tugu]

2 hours ago, Golfquant said:

do you think if the best junior players in the world (who have already made cuts in professional events) went to an Ivy that they would ultimately still end up becoming PGA Tour pros?

No. I've played with the likes of Bryce Mulder and seen up close for extended periods 2 other All Americans from different eras who both struggle(d). One guy won 10 times in college and top 5'd in the Rocket mortgage and still can't get his card.

 

It's too hard an endeavor to give up so many quality reps for 4 years and still expect the same outcome.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Tugu

[LawGenius305]

Probably will be an unpopular post, but college coaches don't develop players. That isn't in their job description. 

[Golfquant]

1 hour ago, Tugu said:

No. I've played with the likes of Bryce Mulder and seen up close for extended periods 2 other All Americans from different eras who both struggle(d). One guy won 10 times in college and top 5'd in the Rocket mortgage and still can't get his card.

 

It's too hard an endeavor to give up so many quality reps for 4 years and still expect the same outcome.

Bryce Molder (sp?) is 45yo and from a totally different era - with the technology, fitness and training junior golfers have it's really not comparable

 

I think if any top 5 recruit committed to an Ivy (which would probably be a huge mistake), their path to pro golf might be delayed, but it certainly wouldn't cut off completely; there just aren't many highly ranked recruits who are even attempting to go down that path; it's like asking why there aren't any Nobel Prize winning physicists among sociology majors

 

 

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, Golfquant said:

Bryce Molder (sp?) is 45yo and from a totally different era - with the technology, fitness and training junior golfers have it's really not comparable

 

I think if any top 5 recruit committed to an Ivy (which would probably be a huge mistake), their path to pro golf might be delayed, but it certainly wouldn't cut off completely; there just aren't many highly ranked recruits who are even attempting to go down that path; it's like asking why there aren't any Nobel Prize winning physicists among sociology majors

 

 

Noone has been better than BM in college. But if you wanna think recent eras, go Sam Bennett, Fred Biondi, Peter Kuest...and the list of gifted golfers struggling to get a card goes on. The game is too hard to spend 4 years playing sub standard golf and still have any positive expectation against kids who are at it day and night. Take a look at the 2 former IVY POTY (with next to zero college wins) who are now at Stanford and Pepperdine as grad students. I dont think they even made the lineup in any event. One even finished DFL at +30 something over as an individual.

 

A more apt comparison would be to ask why Silicon Valley is not filled with people from major powerhouse football schools. In fact there are more of these than PGA tour golfers from IVY league schools. Not a hard statement since there's only ever been one and now a small chance of a second.

 

Btw, take a look at the performances of curated golf CV kids who are now at IVY league schools. One who flew diagonally across country to qualify for US jnr Am or the top 2024 JGS kid who paid his way back into invitational events. The data speaks for itself. The top kid of 2024 JGS only made his team for 3 events and did not break par in a single round.

 

Now if one wants to debate if they are in fact the top recruits as their respective rankings suggest, that's another conversation.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Tugu

[Golfquant]

1 hour ago, Tugu said:

Noone has been better than BM in college. But if you wanna think recent eras, go Sam Bennett, Fred Biondi, Peter Kuest...and the list of gifted golfers struggling to get a card goes on. The game is too hard to spend 4 years playing sub standard golf and still have any positive expectation against kids who are at it day and night. Take a look at the 2 former IVY POTY (with next to zero college wins) who are now at Stanford and Pepperdine as grad students. I dont think they even made the lineup in any event. One even finished DFL at +30 something over as an individual.

 

A more apt comparison would be to ask why Silicon Valley is not filled with people from major powerhouse football schools. In fact there are more of these than PGA tour golfers from IVY league schools. Not a hard statement since there's only ever been one and now a small chance of a second.

 

Btw, take a look at the performances of curated golf CV kids who are now at IVY league schools. One who flew diagonally across country to qualify for US jnr Am or the top 2024 JGS kid who paid his way back into invitational events. The data speaks for itself. The top kid of 2024 JGS only made his team for 3 events and did not break par in a single round.

 

Now if one wants to debate if they are in fact the top recruits as their respective rankings suggest, that's another conversation.

I appreciate the name dropping

 

My point is, top recruits don't choose Ivy for multiple reasons (can't get in due to grades/scores, tough academics, bad courses/facilities, crap weather, etc)

 

If Miles Russell or Blades Brown went to an Ivy they would eventually be on Tour no matter the circumstances; the reality is they would never choose to put themselves in that position - I think most ppl who understand the process/landscape are aware of this; so to blame it on lack of "quality reps" is a bit of a scapegoat

[Tugu]

25 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

I appreciate the name dropping

 

My point is, top recruits don't choose Ivy for multiple reasons (can't get in due to grades/scores, tough academics, bad courses/facilities, crap weather, etc)

 

If Miles Russell or Blades Brown went to an Ivy they would eventually be on Tour no matter the circumstances; the reality is they would never choose to put themselves in that position - I think most ppl who understand the process/landscape are aware of this; so to blame it on lack of "quality reps" is a bit of a scapegoat

Not about name dropping. Alot of big name guys struggle. The data suggests nurture over nature.

 

If one uses the rankings, some top guys do goto IVY, only never to be heard from again in the golf world. Wasnt there some suggestions that Princeton has some amazing recruiting class. Well those guys either cant make the team or cant break par. 2 POTY from IVY can't make the starting lineups at Pepperdine and Stanford, much less break par.

If you take away recency bias, the world has seen the likes of Guan Tianlang, Phillip Francis, Ryan Ruffels, and other can't miss kids who didn't make it. Noone even knows if BB or MR will make the tour from wherever they are going, much less at a academically focused school with sub par golf. 

 

Goes to show what an amazing and outlying outcome James Nichloas getting his PGA tour card would be. Its harder than plucking out the names of 2 promising junior golfers who are doing well right now.

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, Golfquant said:

I appreciate the name dropping

 

My point is, top recruits don't choose Ivy for multiple reasons (can't get in due to grades/scores, tough academics, bad courses/facilities, crap weather, etc)

 

If Miles Russell or Blades Brown went to an Ivy they would eventually be on Tour no matter the circumstances; the reality is they would never choose to put themselves in that position - I think most ppl who understand the process/landscape are aware of this; so to blame it on lack of "quality reps" is a bit of a scapegoat

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2018/01/08/jim-liu-returns-to-amateur-golf-though-focus-remains-on-career-in-finance/76631150007/

 

If you are inclined to, just do a casual Google search of Stephen Abrams, Jim Liu, Joshua Martin, Bill Wolff. These "phenoms" were supposedly destined for the tour too. 

 

It's not as simple as making tour cuts at 16. Guan Tianlang couldn't break par by the time he got to college. He's now teaching at a range in Shenzhen. Was it 14 or 15 when he was low Am at the Masters, with a slow play penalty.

 

So no, being gifted at 16 doesn't ensure one gets past the second tier golf environment with serious academics and a shortened season due to weather constraints. All of which reduces meaningful reps over a 4 year period. Which in turn further reduces the already indredible odds of reaching the tour.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Tugu

[golferdad8]

Golf is hard. Even the best HS recruits who had illustrious college careers have a tough time trying to stay a “pro.” And even if they get their PGA card, it can last less time than a running back’s career in the NFL. 
 

Many are cheering for Nicholas for Q school final stage & he still has a chance tomorrow. Even if he doesn’t get the card, let’s not overlook how as a former Ivy League late bloomer he is keeping up/beating numerous all Americans/HS protoges who previously got a PGA card (briefly) & trying to get it back, including Stanford’s Wu & Bramlett, and USC’s Suh. 
 

As I mentioned before, I think going pro in golf is a calling - like being an entrepreneur or being a pastor. For some, they are so committed that they will do whatever it takes to make it, even if it takes many many years…even if it means taking other jobs to pursue this dream. Of course it’s nice to have the financial backing but at some point, the mental & physical stress will take its toll. I sincerely hope all these “kids” will enjoy their journey as life is short. As Scott Scheffler reminds young people about his principle, be make sure to not have your identity be as a golfer. And it doesn’t hurt to have a good back up plan. 

[golferdad8]

What a finish…what a great performance going into the last 6 holes. 

You like apples? How do you like them apples? 😂 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDnTMIQym4c/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

[golferdad8]

Birdied 4 of the final 5 holes on the 4th & final round for a finish high enough for 8 guaranteed starts on Korn Ferry. 

[BallsBreakFast]

Though not from an Ivy would it be arguable that the most successful professional golfers so far that have come out of strong academic schools are Tiger and Morikawa on the men's side, and Rose Zhang on the women's side? Berkley and Stanford aren't Ivy's but I think most would agree they would be right below as far as prestige and academic rigour.

Who else would be on a top-ten list?

🍿....

Edited December 16, 2024 by BallsBreakFast

[MahalNeneng]

On 12/14/2024 at 2:07 PM, Golfquant said:

I appreciate the name dropping

 

My point is, top recruits don't choose Ivy for multiple reasons (can't get in due to grades/scores, tough academics, bad courses/facilities, crap weather, etc)

 

If Miles Russell or Blades Brown went to an Ivy they would eventually be on Tour no matter the circumstances; the reality is they would never choose to put themselves in that position - I think most ppl who understand the process/landscape are aware of this; so to blame it on lack of "quality reps" is a bit of a scapegoat

Dont have much to add here other than there are plenty of grad class top players that dont make it. 3-4 come to mind immediately (they were were the next comings, cant miss)..

[golferdad8]

10 hours ago, BallsBreakFast said:

Though not from an Ivy would it be arguable that the most successful professional golfers so far that have come out of strong academic schools are Tiger and Morikawa on the men's side, and Rose Zhang on the women's side? Berkley and Stanford aren't Ivy's but I think most would agree they would be right below as far as prestige and academic rigour.

Who else would be on a top-ten list?

🍿....

It's not quite a fair comparison as Stanford's brand allows it to recruit globally from among the best Olympic athletes, and they has a long track record of great team culture (on the women's side). 

 

Cal Berkeley has an advantage with top academics, but being able to have a 14-15 person roster for the past 20 years (vs most of the country with 8-10) has allowed it to recruit Morikawa (Max Homa, Michael Kim, among others). 

 

For those from Texas, they would definitely nominate Scottie & UT Austin as a being the top school with the most successful golfer.  

[leezer99]

4 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

It's not quite a fair comparison as Stanford's brand allows it to recruit globally from among the best Olympic athletes, and they has a long track record of great team culture (on the women's side). 

 

Cal Berkeley has an advantage with top academics, but being able to have a 14-15 person roster for the past 20 years (vs most of the country with 8-10) has allowed it to recruit Morikawa (Max Homa, Michael Kim, among others). 

 

For those from Texas, they would definitely nominate Scottie & UT Austin as a being the top school with the most successful golfer.  

USC has better brand recognition in Olympic sports and revenue generating sports but their men's golf team has historically 'underperformed' even under Zambri who elevated the program for 14 years.  

[HoosYourDaddy]

With respect, all the folk who talk about short stays on PGA Tour and mention "back up plans" and "careers" have no idea what they are talking about or think the chances of some alternative high-paying career are a lot better than they actually are.

 

Making it on Tour at all - even for one season - is a lifetime of job security.  You will be employable somewhere, somehow as a coach, instructor or maybe even corporate sales rep.  I know a guy who "only" made it to KFT for a couple years who was offered multiple jobs as RIA.  Folk wanna do business with guys who played pro sports, and no sport more so than golf especially since you can do deals or manage relationship out on the course.

 

Some might think that those jobs are not be as prestigious as a fancy finance or consulting job out of some bigname Ivy, but kids chasing those industries don't last long in those jobs either and MOST have short careers also

 

https://features.thecrimson.com/2023/senior-survey/after-harvard/

 

"But most don’t intend to stay for long: only 37 percent of finance-bound seniors and 5 percent of consulting-bound seniors hope to remain in the same industry 10 years after graduation."

 

I see the same out of my highly-ranked (but not IVY) college I graduated from, where a bunch of smart, competitive kids from the undergraduate business school all want to go into finance or tech or consulting.  The best ones usually end up back getting a MBA a few years later, and eventually get jobs totally different from the one they started out in but have a career that is more sustainable over a lifetime.  Maybe they should have tried to get those jobs out of college in the first place!  Also, business/grad school are often GREAT options for college athletes who got good grades but who gave pro sports a shot post college.

 

If I'm talented and I truly love he game, I'd chase my dream and try to play pro golf every time over some rat race Wall Street job where people are motivated by money and prestige and where MOST quit anyway because the lifestyle sucks and the job isn't as glamorous as they thought.  Those industries are designed so that only a very small % end up succeeding and sticking with it in the long run.  Be true to yourself.

[golferdad8]

That Harvard article is pretty weak & filled w fluff on geography & illogical on future paths, especially on industries. Going coastal for jobs prob reflects where most students came from as well as where the jobs are. Switching “industries” 10 years later is normal - the job market evolves & half the best jobs out there in the next 10 years haven’t been invented yet. This is why smart people go to school to learn to be good thinkers & problem solvers - NOT just to get a degree or learning the hit jobs of yesterday. It doesn’t have to be Ivies - just a place to learn & grow (beyond just golf). 

Going to banking & consulting is like getting a post grad degree, to get paid while learning - and gain valuable transferable skills. Going back to the outdated industry breakdowns in the article, is being CFO of a tech company like Nvidia a tech job or finance? Is being founder of crypto company finance or entrepreneurship?

As for bring in PGA for one year, that’s a great thing. However, the odds of earning a paycheck in the PGA or Korn Ferry & making over $50k (after deducting travel expenses, coaches, caddies, etc) are so low for even the top 100 junior golfers that the expected returns are lower than focusing on a good education.

PS. Getting a job in playing golf & closing sales or being a successful broker at an RIA doesn’t require being in the PGA for a year. Those jobs just require grit & common sense, and yes they are good alternatives to chasing PGA. Plenty of hard working former high school & college athletes are successful doing just that - applying their work ethic & smarts, and this is why it’s good to have back up plans as statistically even college golfers have near zero chance of getting a PGA paycheck than winning a lottery ticket. 

[HoosYourDaddy]

5 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

That Harvard article is pretty weak & filled w fluff on geography & illogical on future paths, especially on industries. Going coastal for jobs prob reflects where most students came from as well as where the jobs are. Switching “industries” 10 years later is normal - the job market evolves & half the best jobs out there in the next 10 years haven’t been invented yet. This is why smart people go to school to learn to be good thinkers & problem solvers - NOT just to get a degree or learning the hit jobs of yesterday. It doesn’t have to be Ivies - just a place to learn & grow (beyond just golf). 

Going to banking & consulting is like getting a post grad degree, to get paid while learning - and gain valuable transferable skills. Going back to the outdated industry breakdowns in the article, is being CFO of a tech company like Nvidia a tech job or finance? Is being founder of crypto company finance or entrepreneurship?

As for bring in PGA for one year, that’s a great thing. However, the odds of earning a paycheck in the PGA or Korn Ferry & making over $50k (after deducting travel expenses, coaches, caddies, etc) are so low for even the top 100 junior golfers that the expected returns are lower than focusing on a good education.

PS. Getting a job in playing golf & closing sales or being a successful broker at an RIA doesn’t require being in the PGA for a year. Those jobs just require grit & common sense, and yes they are good alternatives to chasing PGA. Plenty of hard working former high school & college athletes are successful doing just that - applying their work ethic & smarts, and this is why it’s good to have back up plans as statistically even college golfers have near zero chance of getting a PGA paycheck than winning a lottery ticket. 

I take issue with your cold-hearted calculation of what the expected net earnings of a pro golfer's career is, without taking into account the externalities and intangibles associated with having competed on the PGA Tour and how that can positively impact future success.  And NOT just professionally.  It's not simple dollars and cents, like you make it out to be.  That is a mentality not appreciated in many parts of the country.

 

The article is a student survey of Harvard seniors about their career intentions.  It's self-reported, so I'm not sure what you are arguing when you say it's "fluff."  Almost 50% are going into finance or consulting.  These are the "future problem solvers and leaders", the best and brightest, our country has?  I also read that less than half of those who pursue those careers after Harvard actually intended to do so before they went to college.  It sounds like there is peer pressure or they are getting indoctrinated to pursue high-paying careers once they get on campus?  These aren't jobs typically thought of as adding a lot of value to society.  No wonder that so many drop out of those lucrative golden-ticket careers once they actually get there - it wasn't what they thought it would be, and it certainly isn't what they love to do.  So how can you press on doing work you don't enjoy or have passion for, maybe getting abused along with way (based on reports of work environments at some of these financial firms), while knowing in the back of your mind you aren't really thought highly by, or contributing to, society overall?

 

BE TRUE TO YOURSELF, even if the "NPV career calculation" doesn't add up