Junior Golf Hub New Ranking System

[LawGenius305]

On 5/11/2024 at 10:33 PM, wegobomber31 said:

 

In the end, the NCAA fields went straight down the line of the Broadie rankings, for better or worse

Not on the individual side.

[LawGenius305]

22 hours ago, jawsmonster said:

US Kids & Hurricane?  I'm guessing that was said in jest.

 

His WAGR is lower than Golf Hub rank.  Top 30 in class on Junior Scoreboard (JGS).  In addition to competing in 2023 US Amateur (...that's US Amateur, not US Junior Amateur), qualified & made cut at Texas Amateur, top 5 at Middle Atlantic Amateur, top 10 at St Augustine Amateur, competed in 3 PGA Monday Qualifiers.  And his rank is 3700+.  LOL

 

Bottom Line:  Golf Hub ranking system is garbage.  And for the record: both JGS & Golfweek suck too.

 

College coaches primarily use these ranking services to simply track what & where juniors compete.  And for power conference golf programs, a junior's WAGR is their primary resource.

College coaches know WAGR is a joke.

[Tugu]

3 hours ago, Golfquant said:

this is great advertising for Pegasus - their new client interest is about to explode from aspirational readers of this forum!

If anyone wants to spend 50k to game the system, just DM me. I can help in 3 languages and put together schedules in 3 continents.😁

[leezer99]

9 hours ago, Tugu said:

If anyone wants to spend 50k to game the system, just DM me. I can help in 3 languages and put together schedules in 3 continents.😁

 

Best I can do is $3.50

[wegobomber31]

Here’s the postscript on AJGA Mayakoba scores vs WAGR Rank. The highest Latin American finisher was T23. 
 

 

 

 

[Tugu]

You'll be even happier to know that friendly matches between Korea, Japan and Republic of China were recently awarded WAGR points.

 

Also, can the kids shoot 80 here and not lose a stroke in the JGS system?

Edited May 14, 2024 by Tugu

[golferdad8]

78.8 adjust par, so 79 would be ZERO differential.

 

For most of these "invitational" players in the US their differentials being -2 to -6, this tournament probably didn't help them them.

That said, if they even have one round near the par 71, they would gain a -8 while the other higher scores were likely among the bottom 25% & thus dropped from JGS score.

[wegobomber31]

2 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

78.8 adjust par, so 79 would be ZERO differential.

 

For most of these "invitational" players in the US their differentials being -2 to -6, this tournament probably didn't help them them.

That said, if they even have one round near the par 71, they would gain a -8 while the other higher scores were likely among the bottom 25% & thus dropped from JGS score.

 

Yeah, there were 36 top 200 players in the field, and their average JGS went from -5.19 to -5.23 after playing in the event.

[Tugu]

8 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

 

Yeah, there were 36 top 200 players in the field, and their average JGS went from -5.19 to -5.23 after playing in the event.

That sounds like a curve smoothing summary. The cheap bleacher audience wants to know who surfed that CCA the best and what did he shoot? Also who limited the damage the best despite shooting a ton?

Edited May 14, 2024 by Tugu

[wegobomber31]

7 minutes ago, Tugu said:

That sounds like a curve smoothing summary. The cheap bleacher audience wants to know who surfed that CCA the best and what did he shoot? Also who limited the damage the best despite shooting a ton?

 

Not sure, though Charles Nelson got a lot of credit for his last round 65.  That seems pretty deserved.

 

Surfing USA:

Charles Nelson	0.54
Aidan Dortch (TCU)	0.38
Chase Hughes	0.37
Giuseppe Puebla	0.37
Ronin Banerjee	0.36
Brooks Simmons	0.33
Luke Colton	0.22
Mason Howell	0.19
Sohan Patel	0.17
Daniel Zou (Rice University)	0.15
Nathan Miller	0.13
Jessy Huebner	0.13
Baron Nguyen	0.12
Coltrane Mittag	0.11
Michael Lugiano (Liberty)	0.09
Alex Zhang	0.08
Vincent Cervantes (Marquette)	0.06
Darren Zhou	0.05
Preston Albee	0.03
Anthony Purcea	0.02
Tyler Watts	-0.01
Henry Guan	-0.05
Parker Sands (Florida)	-0.06
Austin Hofferkamp	-0.07
Sterling Hurd	-0.1
Eric Zhao	-0.1
Parker Severs	-0.11
Will Gordon	-0.11
Matthew Diehl (Grand Canyon)	-0.12
Brandon Sipe	-0.12
Reed Greyserman (Princeton **)	-0.16
Taneesh Sirivolu (Indiana)	-0.21
Nicholas Logis	-0.22
Brooks Harper	-0.24
Ethan Lien	-0.26
Thad Whitfield (Middle Tennessee)	-0.35

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, wegobomber31 said:

 

Not sure, though Charles Nelson got a lot of credit for his last round 65.  That seems pretty deserved.

 

Surfing USA:

 

Charles Nelson	0.54
Aidan Dortch (TCU)	0.38
Chase Hughes	0.37
Giuseppe Puebla	0.37
Ronin Banerjee	0.36
Brooks Simmons	0.33
Luke Colton	0.22
Mason Howell	0.19
Sohan Patel	0.17
Daniel Zou (Rice University)	0.15
Nathan Miller	0.13
Jessy Huebner	0.13
Baron Nguyen	0.12
Coltrane Mittag	0.11
Michael Lugiano (Liberty)	0.09
Alex Zhang	0.08
Vincent Cervantes (Marquette)	0.06
Darren Zhou	0.05
Preston Albee	0.03
Anthony Purcea	0.02
Tyler Watts	-0.01
Henry Guan	-0.05
Parker Sands (Florida)	-0.06
Austin Hofferkamp	-0.07
Sterling Hurd	-0.1
Eric Zhao	-0.1
Parker Severs	-0.11
Will Gordon	-0.11
Matthew Diehl (Grand Canyon)	-0.12
Brandon Sipe	-0.12
Reed Greyserman (Princeton **)	-0.16
Taneesh Sirivolu (Indiana)	-0.21
Nicholas Logis	-0.22
Brooks Harper	-0.24
Ethan Lien	-0.26
Thad Whitfield (Middle Tennessee)	-0.35

If a kid shoots 65, in my books he can have whatever he likes. The point of the game is to go low right? But how does someone shoot +24 and not lose anything? 

 

It all makes sense though when one can get 10 AJGA stars being that far over par over 2 rounds.

 

Carry on, ignore me. I keep thinking good players shoot under par. #dinosaur

 

 

[golferdad8]

37 minutes ago, Tugu said:

If a kid shoots 65, in my books he can have whatever he likes. The point of the game is to go low right? But how does someone shoot +24 and not lose anything? 

 

It all makes sense though when one can get 10 AJGA stars being that far over par over 2 rounds.

 

Carry on, ignore me. I keep thinking good players shoot under par. #dinosaur

 

 

Along the line of shooting +24, how about shooting par of 71 and get a -8 strokes boost added to their differential avg, or shoot 65 and get a -14 average. No wonder these “top” JGS ranked guys have -8 differentials and shoot 75 in college. 
 

[wegobomber31]

36 minutes ago, Tugu said:

If a kid shoots 65, in my books he can have whatever he likes. The point of the game is to go low right? But how does someone shoot +24 and not lose anything? 

 

It all makes sense though when one can get 10 AJGA stars being that far over par over 2 rounds.

 

Carry on, ignore me. I keep thinking good players shoot under par. #dinosaur

 

 

 

I think the heart of the question relates to the JGS decision to throw out the worst 25%.  To me, that just seems like a design choice -- maybe it's right, maybe it's not.  Who knows.  The other rankings capture each round so a bad round carries some pain.

 

If you're a college coach, do you want somebody who shoots 72 every round or somebody who shoots 69 half the time and 75 nearly the other half of the time, and 86 every once in a while? JGS would favor the latter.

 

There's some noise here too just based on the number of rounds a player has played in the last 12 months and whether JGS is rounding up or down on the 75%.  So you could play 3 rounds and the worst 2 are effectively thrown out.  JGS could just take fractional round scores and the Diff would be more stable over time.

 

 

 

[Tugu]

8 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

Along the line of shooting +24, how about shooting par of 71 and get a -8 strokes boost added to their differential avg, or shoot 65 and get a -14 average. No wonder these “top” JGS ranked guys have -8 differentials and shoot 75 in college. 
 

Consider the head of the nail proverbially hit.

[wegobomber31]

On 5/14/2024 at 4:41 PM, golferdad8 said:

Along the line of shooting +24, how about shooting par of 71 and get a -8 strokes boost added to their differential avg, or shoot 65 and get a -14 average. No wonder these “top” JGS ranked guys have -8 differentials and shoot 75 in college. 
 

 

I was interested to see how the top handful of 2023 recruits did their freshman year.  Koivun's stellar year is pretty well documented, but others played pretty well for their first year.   Only one wasn't in the majority of the team's events.

 

 

Player		College	Diff	Rounds	Scoring
Jackson	Koivun	Auburn	-8.82	38	69.15
Eric	Lee	Cal - Berkeley	-8.69	31	71.74
Ethan	Gao	Stanford	-7.87	25	74.00
Carson	Kim	Georgia Tech	-7.84	29	73.22
Bryan	Kim	Duke	-7.59	31	72.55
Preston	Stout	Oklahoma State	-7.61	38	71.73
Ethan	Fang	Cal - Berkeley	-7.3	34	71.35
P.J.	Maybank	Oklahoma	-7.24	12	70.42
Aaron	Pounds	Texas A & M	-7.18	33	73.33

[golferdad8]

12 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

 

I was interested to see how the top handful of 2023 recruits did their freshman year.  Koivun's stellar year is pretty well documented, but others played pretty well for their first year.   Only one wasn't in the majority of the team's events.

 

 

 

Player		College	Diff	Rounds	Scoring
Jackson	Koivun	Auburn	-8.82	38	69.15
Eric	Lee	Cal - Berkeley	-8.69	31	71.74
Ethan	Gao	Stanford	-7.87	25	74.00
Carson	Kim	Georgia Tech	-7.84	29	73.22
Bryan	Kim	Duke	-7.59	31	72.55
Preston	Stout	Oklahoma State	-7.61	38	71.73
Ethan	Fang	Cal - Berkeley	-7.3	34	71.35
P.J.	Maybank	Oklahoma	-7.24	12	70.42
Aaron	Pounds	Texas A & M	-7.18	33	73.33

You forgot Stanford’s Arora & Ouyang. 

 

Importantly, check out top freshmen like Ryan Voois of Illinois & see where he & other “underdogs” were ranked when they were overlooked by top golf coaches/programs? 

[wegobomber31]

9 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

You forgot Stanford’s Arora & Ouyang. 

 

Importantly, check out top freshmen like Ryan Voois of Illinois & see where he & other “underdogs” were ranked when they were overlooked by top golf coaches/programs? 

I didn’t forget anybody. I just pasted everybody who was -7 or better or signing. You said -8, but that was only two kids. 

[Golfquant]

Just spot-checking, but there seem to be inconsistencies/inaccuracies in the TOURNAMENTS actually competed in for many players.

[Golfquant]

13 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

 

I was interested to see how the top handful of 2023 recruits did their freshman year.  Koivun's stellar year is pretty well documented, but others played pretty well for their first year.   Only one wasn't in the majority of the team's events.

 

 

 

Player		College	Diff	Rounds	Scoring
Jackson	Koivun	Auburn	-8.82	38	69.15
Eric	Lee	Cal - Berkeley	-8.69	31	71.74
Ethan	Gao	Stanford	-7.87	25	74.00
Carson	Kim	Georgia Tech	-7.84	29	73.22
Bryan	Kim	Duke	-7.59	31	72.55
Preston	Stout	Oklahoma State	-7.61	38	71.73
Ethan	Fang	Cal - Berkeley	-7.3	34	71.35
P.J.	Maybank	Oklahoma	-7.24	12	70.42
Aaron	Pounds	Texas A & M	-7.18	33	73.33

for someone so highly touted, 74.00 seems like a disappointing outcome - perhaps "senioritis" carried over to freshman year (heard his appearance/attire changed signif once he got on campus)

[wegobomber31]

2 hours ago, Golfquant said:

for someone so highly touted, 74.00 seems like a disappointing outcome - perhaps "senioritis" carried over to freshman year (heard his appearance/attire changed signif once he got on campus)

This is probably a story as old as college golf itself. Some make it, some improve, some never quite pan out. Some are never heard from again. 

[Tugu]

15 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

This is probably a story as old as college golf itself. Some make it, some improve, some never quite pan out. Some are never heard from again. 

If its randomn as you suggest, then all the rankings are pointless. They then have no predictive value whatsoever.

[wegobomber31]

41 minutes ago, Tugu said:

If its randomn as you suggest, then all the rankings are pointless. They then have no predictive value whatsoever.

We both know that's not true.  Most of these top 2023 JGS players playing for excellent D1 programs their freshman year suggests otherwise. 

 

I'm just trying to find the -8 Diff's shooting 75 as clear evidence of CCA surfing.  I guess when Ethan Gao was finishing 2nd in the Junior PGA or multiple top 5's in AJGA Invitationals, we should've known that the JGS resulting from those performances was a sham all along.  How could Conrad Ray be so dumb?

 

 

Edited May 16, 2024 by wegobomber31

[Tugu]

9 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

We both know that's not true.  Most of these top 2023 JGS players playing for excellent D1 programs their freshman year suggests otherwise. 

 

I'm just trying to find the -8 Diff's shooting 75 as clear evidence of CCA surfing.  I guess when Ethan Gao was finishing 2nd in the Junior PGA or multiple top 5's in AJGA Invitationals, we should've known that the JGS resulting from those performances was a sham all along.  How could Conrad Ray be so dumb?

 

 

Either it's as you say

 

Some make it, some improve, some never quite pan out. Some are never heard from again. 

 

Or its not. 

 

Cant have a bite each way. Cherry picking specific events says even less.

 

Perhaps the entire CCA, weighting of invitationals and how one gets there in what are essentially 5 to 8 events per year samples need to be questioned? 

 

To gauge quality and see if someone can get that CCA ride based on roughly 5 events seems to reward outlying events. Remember one can shoot +24 and stay in the pocket of that sweet wave.

 

Even if said player reaches that "cream", I'd want to see how he does in events like say the Terra Cup. Then I'd be inclined to decide of kid was surfing or not.😉 

 

Kids who get to that CCA surfing level and then physically/metaphorically shut it down. Not hard to discern.

Edited May 17, 2024 by Tugu

[Tugu]

@wegobomber31 Let me give you a few tell tale signs of what we see in Norcal.

 

The 180 mph kid has since you last singled him out for praise, yet again NOT won a supposedly super weak local event in his backyard. Played and won Norcal 4 ball hit and giggle event. Not played anything else since recruitment. Decided to play a small AJGA instead of Cal state Jnr Am (this is maybe just application arbitrage).

 

By application arbitrage, I mean parents applying to multiple events and then paying cancellation fees based on the final field. A couple of prominent kids are known to forever be "in" fields only to then be out prior to event commencement.

 

Or how about already recruited high profile Cali kids going across country to events where they are the only exempt player? (If they also travelled around for big events, then there wouldnt be much to say. But that is not the case). Or better still, what about already recruited high profile player travelling across country and then driving 4 to 5 hours for a qualifier that is available all over the country?🤔

 

I could keep going, it's not rare. 

Edited May 17, 2024 by Tugu

[wegobomber31]

18 hours ago, Golfquant said:

for someone so highly touted, 74.00 seems like a disappointing outcome - perhaps "senioritis" carried over to freshman year (heard his appearance/attire changed signif once he got on campus)

 

please do keep going. I swear I need a decoder ring to decipher which California golfers I’m supposed to be rooting for. Clark Van Gaalen good.  I got that much. 

[Tugu]

19 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

 

please do keep going. I swear I need a decoder ring to decipher which California golfers I’m supposed to be rooting for. Clark Van Gaalen good.  I got that much. 

Root for those that genuinely seek to be better. They may not succeed, but the desire to be better is what I respect and cheer. This as opposed to just being ranked high. 

 

Also root for kids that wanna win in the most meaningful way available to them. Paying cancellation fees after seeing the finalised field and gauging what the CCA might be...don't cheer for that.😇

 

Isn't it pretty obvious who is trying to improve their craft? Will you look to goto say Wisconsin or Michigan/NY (in spring) or the Dakotas to get your boy points? Or do you register for the kickass event to see how he does? I think already know what I'm speaking of.

 

Funny example is my boys played alot with Asterisk. But winning 30 odd JTNC got her literally nowhere. Now the world knows her because she supposedly now plays "tough" golf events. Cheer for her cause she's competing against par.

 

 

[wegobomber31]

41 minutes ago, Tugu said:

Root for those that genuinely seek to be better. They may not succeed, but the desire to be better is what I respect and cheer. This as opposed to just being ranked high. 

 

Also root for kids that wanna win in the most meaningful way available to them. Paying cancellation fees after seeing the finalised field and gauging what the CCA might be...don't cheer for that.😇

 

Isn't it pretty obvious who is trying to improve their craft? Will you look to goto say Wisconsin or Michigan/NY (in spring) or the Dakotas to get your boy points? Or do you register for the kickass event to see how he does? I think already know what I'm speaking of.

 

Funny example is my boys played alot with Asterisk. But winning 30 odd JTNC got her literally nowhere. Now the world knows her because she supposedly now plays "tough" golf events. Cheer for her cause she's competing against par.

 

 

all good points and I agree with most of what you’re saying. I honestly am not paying close enough attention to who is doing what. 

I will admit that I have paid my fair share of cancellation fees after the field is set, mostly because of competing options. I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to navigate tournaments to protect your ranking seems like a fruitless exercise. If you don’t have the game, you’re going to get exposed sooner or later.

 

my kid played with CVG and Diehl at Simplify and I’ll always root for good kids who respect the game. The game can provide life changing opportunities no matter what kind of success they have in college or beyond. 

 

[golferdad8]

2 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

my kid played with CVG and Diehl at Simplify and I’ll always root for good kids who respect the game. The game can provide life changing opportunities no matter what kind of success they have in college or beyond. 

 

 

Don't sing praises too loudly about "good kids who respect the game" from one tournament. One of them is a good player but has had multiple players/different events call him out for cheating (frequently magically finding his ball out of sight when nobody else is around him, even after past the time allowed). He now has a reputation among the top norcal players/family/coaches, so let's see if he can stop this before he's caught on a bigger stage. Similar to a recent norcal guy, it would not be good if he gets caught later & kicked off a college team & have to transfer - these reputations are difficult to shake. 

[golferdad8]

10 hours ago, Tugu said:

@wegobomber31 Let me give you a few tell tale signs of what we see in Norcal.

 

The 180 mph kid has since you last singled him out for praise, yet again NOT won a supposedly super weak local event in his backyard. Played and won Norcal 4 ball hit and giggle event. Not played anything else since recruitment. Decided to play a small AJGA instead of Cal state Jnr Am (this is maybe just application arbitrage).

 

By application arbitrage, I mean parents applying to multiple events and then paying cancellation fees based on the final field. A couple of prominent kids are known to forever be "in" fields only to then be out prior to event commencement.

 

Or how about already recruited high profile Cali kids going across country to events where they are the only exempt player? (If they also travelled around for big events, then there wouldnt be much to say. But that is not the case). Or better still, what about already recruited high profile player travelling across country and then driving 4 to 5 hours for a qualifier that is available all over the country?🤔

 

I could keep going, it's not rare. 

Love the "180 mph kid" nick name. Funny you noticed his M.O. & the application arbitrage. 

Perhaps his college coach gives out a handbook for their recruits on how to get a 5 on this AP course called "App Arbitrage" as his future teammates all appear to do the same thing - I just noticed their names on the last minute WDs from Scott Robertson. 

 

As for the flying across country for easier field to win an AJGA, this already recruited kid jetting around in his private plane will join other future teammates (who pad their resume & look good on paper) but either fail to travel or do poorly college tournaments. As Charles Barkley says on TNT, "I guarantee it" - haha.  

 

On flying cross country & driving 4.5 hours to get to an easier US Jr Qual field, that makes sense when I see how challenging it is to make cut in a Qualifier in California vs. other parts of the country (and overseas). If the goal is to make it to US Jr, I suppose that's a good plan. 

 

[leezer99]

8 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

all good points and I agree with most of what you’re saying. I honestly am not paying close enough attention to who is doing what. 

I will admit that I have paid my fair share of cancellation fees after the field is set, mostly because of competing options. I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to navigate tournaments to protect your ranking seems like a fruitless exercise. If you don’t have the game, you’re going to get exposed sooner or later.

 

my kid played with CVG and Diehl at Simplify and I’ll always root for good kids who respect the game. The game can provide life changing opportunities no matter what kind of success they have in college or beyond. 

 

We like MD you mentioned. Nice kid.