Committee and Red Staked Penalty Area????

[denkea]

Can a committee designate a red staked penalty area?  

 

Behind a green slopes downward into a non playable (usually) area.  It is not staked red.  No stakes at all.

 

If we have 24 players that play every week, and it's run by the same person, can that person designate an area as a red penalty area?

[Newby]

It depends.

Is it intended that scores will be entered for handicap purposes?

If not, the coordinator of the group can designate as they wish.

 

If so, does the 'group' have any standing within in the club? ie Does it satisfy the definition of a Handicap Committee in the Rules of Handicapping? 

Has the course owner/club management been approached?

Edited April 25, 2024 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Can a committee designate a red staked penalty area?  

 

Behind a green slopes downward into a non playable (usually) area.  It is not staked red.  No stakes at all.

 

If we have 24 players that play every week, and it's run by the same person, can that person designate an area as a red penalty area?

 

Are you in USA? If you are, you can form your own committee and declare that area as Ground Under Repair -> free relief.

[sui generis]

Denkea, I'll offer you two Definitions and you can come to your own conclusion:

 

First, Committee 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=11

 

Second, Penalty Area

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

45 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Denkea, I'll offer you two Definitions and you can come to your own conclusion:

 

First, Committee 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=11

 

Second, Penalty Area

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

 

 

Looks like the definition of ground under repair would also allow a committee to declare the area as such (although I know that's not what the OP asked)?

[sui generis]

16 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looks like the definition of ground under repair would also allow a committee to declare the area as such (although I know that's not what the OP asked)?

 

I suppose so, however, often Committees prefer to GUR areas which have some claim to being only temporary in nature. 😉

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, denkea said:

Can a committee designate a red staked penalty area?  

 

Behind a green slopes downward into a non playable (usually) area.  It is not staked red.  No stakes at all.

 

If we have 24 players that play every week, and it's run by the same person, can that person designate an area as a red penalty area?

 

If you have your own group you can pretty much do anything you want since all members will be playing the same rules - so it's a fair game.

 

If you're talking about submitting scores for WHS handicap purposes then I think that would not be allowed as the course rating has that area as part of the general area and I'm relatively sure the Committee is not allowed to change such things.

 

GUR, as sui mentioned, is a "temporary" condition and therefore doesn't seem to apply here.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

I suppose so, however, often Committees prefer to GUR areas which have some claim to being only temporary in nature. 😉

 

Yes, in theory. In practice many courses have more or less permanent GUR areas.

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yes, in theory. In practice many courses have more or less permanent GUR areas.

 

 

Not mine and no others which I've played or refereed at have any "more or less permanent GUR areas." Perhaps your different experience is a cultural thing. 😉

[Augster]

Short answer, yes. 
 

In our local rules we specify that any area of the course, staked or not, that is “not usually mown” is designated a red penalty area. Long grass, woods, under large trees, etc. Anywhere you might lose a ball, really. 
 

It’s one part of one hole. I wouldn’t worry about the adjusted rating. In fact, if the RPA is designated instead of what usually happens in that area, I’m guessing a lost ball, the rating will actually be marginally easier. Areas over greens minimally add into hole ratings. Most players under club or mishit. The only time they go over is dead skulls. 
 

[Mr. Bean]

40 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Not mine and no others which I've played or refereed at have any "more or less permanent GUR areas." Perhaps your different experience is a cultural thing. 😉

 

Maybe. It is not common here either but they do exist here and there. Besides, how does one define "temporary" ? If there is a plan to clear an area in the future, what is the "maximum" time for GUR? Month? 6 months? Year? 3 years?

 

What about No Play Zones? They must be either ACC or PA. Environmentally areas and historically valuable places that are preserved are NPZ's and many of those are defined as GUR in my country and they sure are of very permanent nature.

[sui generis]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

What about No Play Zones? They must be either ACC or PA. Environmentally areas and historically valuable places that are preserved are NPZ's and many of those are defined as GUR in my country and they sure are of very permanent nature.

 

It's my opinion that the RBs used GUR for NPZ as a lazy way out. They can have a NPZ, but don't need to create yet another free relief procedure. (Sawgrass and I went around and around over this a few years back and he convinced me of this accommodation.)

 

The Rules struggle to remain credible to the hoi polloi. Referring to areas as "under repair" that are clearly not under repair does the perception of legitimacy of the Rules no favors.

[Mudguard]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:35 AM, Augster said:

Short answer, yes. 
 

In our local rules we specify that any area of the course, staked or not, that is “not usually mown” is designated a red penalty area. Long grass, woods, under large trees, etc. Anywhere you might lose a ball, really. 

 

I didn't think that's the sort of thing the committee could actually do, just wholesale making penalty areas without actually marking them?

[Mr. Bean]

24 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

I didn't think that's the sort of thing the committee could actually do, just wholesale making penalty areas without actually marking them?

 

No, it certainly is not. It is the responsibility of the Committee to mark Penalty Areas accurately.

[Mudguard]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, it certainly is not. It is the responsibility of the Committee to mark Penalty Areas accurately.

 

A course nearby has a winter rule about lost embedded balls being a free frop. Drives me nuts. Meant no actual lost balls ever. Oh, I'm in heavy rough, it must've plugged. Free drop.

🤦‍♂️

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

A course nearby has a winter rule about lost embedded balls being a free frop. Drives me nuts. Meant no actual lost balls ever. Oh, I'm in heavy rough, it must've plugged. Free drop.

🤦‍♂️

Is your course in an area where winter is considered “not in season” so you don’t post scores those months?

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Mudguard said:

I didn't think that's the sort of thing the committee could actually do, just wholesale making penalty areas without actually marking them?

Absolutely you can. I have no idea what Mr. Bean is going on about. 
 

It’s in the Local Rules. Just like a local rule we have is to not play from flower beds. Flower beds are NPZs as per the local rule. But there is ZERO marking on the course to say as much. 
 

Additionally, and I’m talking about public golf here in America, there will be multiple “committees” at every course for different competitions. Our men’s club is one committee. Every evening has a different league which each have their own committee. The Thursday ladies have their own committee. Traveling weekly tournaments have their own committee. 
 

Literally NONE of these committees go out and set up the course. The course is set up by the superintendent. (Marking PA’s, OB etc.) 
 

If one of these committees wants the outside of the course to play as RPA, for pace of play, they just local rule it and make the white stakes red. They don’t physically go out there and remove the white stakes and replace them with red stakes. They make a LR on THEIR hard card that says, “white stakes on the left of 18 will be played as RPA”. 

I don’t even know how that would work. Have the players in the first group replace the white stakes with red, then have the last group put the white stakes back while they are playing the hole? There will be other groups behind that comp that will likely be playing the white stakes as OB as that is how the course was set up.  
 

The only time I’ve ever seen anyone come in and change stuff is a state committee that has the course, all day, for a state am qualifier. The super goes out with that committee and sets up the course as they want it. Drawing red lines, drawing white lines, making sure the stakes are in the correct spots, marking GUR etc. etc. 

 

But that is a completely different situation, closing down the entire course for the state comp, than multiple committees working out of the same course. 
 

So we have Local Rules on our hard card to make the course play how we want it to play when we have our competitions. 

 

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, Augster said:

Absolutely you can. I have no idea what Mr. Bean is going on about. 
 

It’s in the Local Rules. Just like a local rule we have is to not play from flower beds. Flower beds are NPZs as per the local rule. But there is ZERO marking on the course to say as much. 

 

 

 

You might want to take a look at Committee Procedures.

[Mudguard]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Is your course in an area where winter is considered “not in season” so you don’t post scores those months?

No we play all year round. 

[Mudguard]

49 minutes ago, Augster said:

Absolutely you can. I have no idea what Mr. Bean is going on about. 
 

It’s in the Local Rules. Just like a local rule we have is to not play from flower beds. Flower beds are NPZs as per the local rule. But there is ZERO marking on the course to say as much. 
 

 

 

Unfortunately the committee can't make wholesale rules. Flower beds are probably a good example of a local rule as presumably they are well defined and don't constitute vast swaths of rough. 

Same with GUR. It's supposed to be marked. Otherwise, tough luck, play it as it lies. 

 

The same course often has play the lie through the green even though it's pointed out numerous times that the committee cannot create a rule like that. I mean why mow the fairways, just take the shortest line, perch it up in the rough and have it with a long club. 

Happened to me in a match. I've hit one up the middle, can't quite reach a par five in two with three wood. My opponent is slightly shorter than me, in the rough, clean and place, knocks it on the front edge with driver. 

[Mudguard]

54 minutes ago, Augster said:

 

If one of these committees wants the outside of the course to play as RPA, for pace of play, they just local rule it and make the white stakes red. They don’t physically go out there and remove the white stakes and replace them with red stakes. They make a LR on THEIR hard card that says, “white stakes on the left of 18 will be played as RPA”. 
 

 

Under the new rules they don't even need to do anything. Drop on the fairway equidistant from where it crossed the white stakes and hit your fourth?

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

You might want to take a look at Committee Procedures.

A Committee may define the edge of a penalty area by clearly describing it in writing but should do so only if there will be little or no doubt where the edge is.

Edited just now by Newby

 

Edited April 30, 2024 by Newby

[Newby]

Oops. My editing of the above seems to be awry 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

A Committee may define the edge of a penalty area by clearly describing it in writing but should do so only if there will be little or no doubt where the edge is.

Edited just now by Newby

 

 

Describing the edge requires the edge to be precise, as explained in the Committee Procedures. Declaring things like bushes, woods or heavy undervegetation as GUR with no marking of the edge does not qualify.

[sui generis]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Describing the edge requires the edge to be precise, as explained in the Committee Procedures. Declaring things like bushes, woods or heavy undervegetation as GUR with no marking of the edge does not qualify.

 

I disagree. My club's Local Rule which was approved in advance by our Allied Golf Association states, in part:

 

"All penalty areas are designated as red penalty areas and are marked with red stakes and/or red lines. However, for any penalty area with red stakes only, the edge of that penalty area is defined by the adjacent mowing line."

 

Their reasoning, I believe, is that post-2019 even the so called precision of paint isn't necessary. 

 

 

 

[Newby]

14 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I disagree. My club's Local Rule which was approved in advance by our Allied Golf Association states, in part:

 

"All penalty areas are designated as red penalty areas and are marked with red stakes and/or red lines. However, for any penalty area with red stakes only, the edge of that penalty area is defined by the adjacent mowing line."

 

Their reasoning, I believe, is that post-2019 even the so called precision of paint isn't necessary. 

 

 

 

There is a club near me which has a large lawn between the back of the 18th green and the clubhouse terrace. The paved terrace is white lined as OB. The flower beds in the lawn are not marked but a published LR says 'The flower beds between the 18th green and the terrace are GUR' accompanied by the relief procedure (in this case DZs).

Some few years ago, as a result of a query by an enthusiastic newly qualified referee it was referred to and approved by the R&A

[Imp]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Describing the edge requires the edge to be precise,

... no marking of the edge does not qualify.

2nd statement is different than the 1st.

 

You're stating that something has to be marked in the 2nd part, but you say it's ok to simply describe it in the 1st. 

Describing without marking is absolutely AOK.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I disagree. My club's Local Rule which was approved in advance by our Allied Golf Association states, in part:

 

"All penalty areas are designated as red penalty areas and are marked with red stakes and/or red lines. However, for any penalty area with red stakes only, the edge of that penalty area is defined by the adjacent mowing line."

 

Their reasoning, I believe, is that post-2019 even the so called precision of paint isn't necessary. 

 

 

 

 

Mowing line can be precise. But I do wonder why has one come to such a solution. We paint red lines only for competitions and even then only when absolutely necessary. In all other cases the margin follows the line of stakes. Simple and easily defined by a thread.

 

I wonder what you are disagreeing with me here. Or do you say that random bush area or woods is precisely marked? Because that is what I have said that it is not what the Committee Procedures tell us, GUR or PA has to be precisely marked (or otherwise defined).

[Mr. Bean]

39 minutes ago, Imp said:

2nd statement is different than the 1st.

 

You're stating that something has to be marked in the 2nd part, but you say it's ok to simply describe it in the 1st. 

Describing without marking is absolutely AOK.

 

I don't follow and too tired to start explaining. Read the Committee Prodecures, it is all there.

[Augster]

The mown lines are precise. It’s kind of the point. The mower can only go so close to bushes, woods, prairie grass etc. 
 

The “theory” of it may be blowing your mind. In the actual usage, it’s really easy and obvious.