Whose career crash has been the most disappointing?

[TreyWingbat]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Justin Thomas has lost his way recently but he's a fifteen-time PGAT Champion with two major titles.

 

I make fun of him, but he will end up in the Hall of Fame. IMO

What happened to him?

[AZBRONCFAN]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

And yet he was 2nd in SG: Tee to green in 2017 and 48th in SG:putting.  So he won three times including a major when he was not putting well.

You cherry picked his best year SG. In his 3 wins his SG putting were +2.09, +.55 and not stats for the Open. He lost strokes off the tee in those wins. When he had a bad putting round he missed the cut. It was called back then that he was making an unsustainable amount of 20 foot putts. He also timed it well that the huge influx of talent didn't happen for a few years after he came on tour too.

 

2017/2018 season he was 23 in SG Tee to green so I'm not sure where you got he was number 2.

Edited June 9, 2024 by AZBRONCFAN

[Carbrook_Will]

1 hour ago, ALIF said:

If I was him, at that point, my life, I wouldn’t either! i’d be enjoying my hot wife, two boys, and a large pile of money.

Don’t forget the massive boat 

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

2017/2018 season he was 23 in SG Tee to green so I'm not sure where you got he was number 2.

 

2017 season is 2016/17 (starts immediately after the playoffs) and he was indeed #2 SG Tee to Green.

 

It's also obvious why he would pick that season because it's the last time he was actually a world beater. 

 

[CanFred]

I think I saw it mentioned in this thread, but I immediately thought of Duval - glad to see him back & competing on the Champions Tour

[Oostiesalbacore]

7 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

but tiger was already cemented as #1 or #2 all time before those events…

That’s what I’m driving at. He’d be unquestioned #1 if he stayed on the straight and narrow. 

[AZBRONCFAN]

2 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

2017 season is 2016/17 (starts immediately after the playoffs) and he was indeed #2 SG Tee to Green.

 

It's also obvious why he would pick that season because it's the last time he was actually a world beater. 

 

I see it now but that was the one season that was an outlier. That is back to my original point that there were guys saying his sustainability to be a great player wasn't adding up in his stats. He was making a stupid amount of ~20 foot putts which was erasing his ball striking which is the real seperator for touring pros. Once those quit falling, he became the guy he is now. 2 wins since that 2017 season. 

[straightshot7]

2 hours ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

That’s what I’m driving at. He’d be unquestioned #1 if he stayed on the straight and narrow. 

okay. I wish he had (assuming he was ever on the straight and narrow).

 

But Tiger had 15 productive years on Tour. 

he maximized himself for many many years.

 

you're basically asking him to sustain a perfect career.

 

i wish he had but i wouldn’t say he underachieved overall. 82 wins 😁

“hey you tied for the most pga tour wins in history, but you really should have had more. You were #1 in the world for 683 weeks but I was expecting more! Your decline was so disappointing!!” — I’m sure you can see how this can be considered a bit harsh. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by straightshot7

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

I see it now but that was the one season that was an outlier. That is back to my original point that there were guys saying his sustainability to be a great player wasn't adding up in his stats. He was making a stupid amount of ~20 foot putts which was erasing his ball striking which is the real seperator for touring pros. Once those quit falling, he became the guy he is now. 2 wins since that 2017 season. 

Of course he’s been 37th…18th …41st in strokes gained tee to green the last 3 seasons as well.  Which is certainly good enough to win on tour.  The “he is only a great putter” spiel really doesn’t work.  He had two really poor seasons tee to green and the rest have been quite adequate.

[Jones55]

David Duval, crashed after winning the 2001 Open, won 11 out of 34 tournaments, and shot a 59 before that Open win. 

Back injury was a major player in his sudden loss of form, but even so, has to be the most dramatic fall from grace in the golfing world. 

[Oostiesalbacore]

8 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

okay. I wish he had (assuming he was ever on the straight and narrow).

 

But Tiger had 15 productive years on Tour. 

he maximized himself for many many years.

 

you're basically asking him to sustain a perfect career.

 

i wish he had but i wouldn’t say he underachieved overall. 82 wins 😁

“hey you tied for the most pga tour wins in history, but you really should have had more. You were #1 in the world for 683 weeks but I was expecting more! Your decline was so disappointing!!” — I’m sure you can see how this can be considered a bit harsh. 

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not saying he didn’t have a great career. I’m saying he’d be the undisputed #1 of all time but he’s not because his off the course scandals bled in his personal life to such an extreme that he’s got a criminal record over it. 
 

the title of the thread is “who’s career crash was most disappointing” not “who didn’t live up to their potential”. Tiger was such an icon and looked up to by so many people that he ruined his legacy with his off court shenanigans. Ask a rando on the street about Tiger and I’d wager they know about the waitresses or crashes and can’t name a single major win with a specificity. 

[Golferpaul]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

As one that saw both in their prime….if you want to call Jack the greatest champion due to the three extra majors that’s fine imo.  But there is NO question in my mind that Tiger played the best golf ever to date and did win more events in a much more difficult era to do so.

I also was fortunate to see both of them in their prime.  The fun thing about this debate is everybody can decide what yardstick they will use.  Tiger had the best single seasons, but Jack had the best career.  My yardstick for a career is majors.

[Golferpaul]

14 hours ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

You cherry picked his best year SG. In his 3 wins his SG putting were +2.09, +.55 and not stats for the Open. He lost strokes off the tee in those wins. When he had a bad putting round he missed the cut. It was called back then that he was making an unsustainable amount of 20 foot putts. He also timed it well that the huge influx of talent didn't happen for a few years after he came on tour too.

 

2017/2018 season he was 23 in SG Tee to green so I'm not sure where you got he was number 2.

Yes, I cherry-picked to make a point.  My point is he had a spectacular season in 2017 where he sucked at putting but was #2 tee to green.  So he CAN win without spectacular putting.

 

2017 season, NOT 2018:

 

[Jones55]

40 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Yes, I cherry-picked to make a point.  My point is he had a spectacular season in 2017 where he sucked at putting but was #2 tee to green.  So he CAN win without spectacular putting.

 

2017 season, NOT 2018:

 

He can win still you think 🤣 but he has to actually make the cut on a regular basis to think about winning again. 

He is a million miles away from where he was 7-10 years. 

More chance he be  on  korn ferry tour than winning again🤣 

 

[AZBRONCFAN]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

Yes, I cherry-picked to make a point.  My point is he had a spectacular season in 2017 where he sucked at putting but was #2 tee to green.  So he CAN win without spectacular putting.

 

2017 season, NOT 2018:

 

I already pointed put that his 3 wins in 2017 were his great putting weeks. I think you guys are missing the point. The thread is about a career crash. I pointed out what was being talked about back then that Spieth was making an unsustainable amount of 20 foot putts and when they quit falling he won't be as successful. It was talked about on many podcasts and it appears to have worked out like they said. In reality the fall from the top wasn't surprising.

[Ironman_32]

It's golf, so I'd say the tough thing is the perception of the player goes hand in hand with actual playing career. 

 

For example, Rickie probably shouldn't even be on this list, should be someone like Martin Kaymer, but he didn't really get any press. 

 

The thing is, golf is fleeting at the peak level.  I sometimes think we compare everyone to Tiger in that they should have years as the top golfer, when actually it's probably more year than years. 

[Golferpaul]

31 minutes ago, Jones55 said:

He can win still you think 🤣 but he has to actually make the cut on a regular basis to think about winning again. 

He is a million miles away from where he was 7-10 years. 

More chance he be  on  korn ferry tour than winning again🤣 

 

I'll always have hope because I like the guy.

 

He's currently playing on the same level as JT, Fowler, Day, etc.  He's had three top-10s this year.  His 3rd place finish was only 2 strokes out of first.   There is always hope.

[AZBRONCFAN]

9 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Of course he’s been 37th…18th …41st in strokes gained tee to green the last 3 seasons as well.  Which is certainly good enough to win on tour.  The “he is only a great putter” spiel really doesn’t work.  He had two really poor seasons tee to green and the rest have been quite adequate.

I never said he was a great putter and wins because of that. I'm pointing out what was a predictable fall and was talked about. He was making an unsustainable level of 20 foot putts. That came back to the norm and there is a reason why he has only won 2 times since 2017.

[Golferpaul]

6 minutes ago, Ironman_32 said:

The thing is, golf is fleeting at the peak level.  I sometimes think we compare everyone to Tiger in that they should have years as the top golfer, when actually it's probably more year than years. 

This is true.  Even comparing to Phil is a stretch for 99% of the current group.

[Nard_S]

Speith had a great run on putting, so off the charts it was unsustainable. But he was also  top shelf in wedge play. Best I've ever seen. 120 in he was a magician, that aspect does not seem to be  present as it once was.

[Golferpaul]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:04 PM, Nard_S said:

Vote JT because his decline is most mysterious given his talent.

 

But #1 to me, and not listed is Rory. By a mile too.

Rory at age 35 has 26 wins and four majors.  Phil at 35 had 27 wins and two majors and ended up with 45 wins and six majors.  So Rory is about on track to have a "Phil" career and if he does I think he would be quite happy.

[Nard_S]

29 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Rory at age 35 has 26 wins and four majors.  Phil at 35 had 27 wins and two majors and ended up with 45 wins and six majors.  So Rory is about on track to have a "Phil" career and if he does I think he would be quite happy.

He's way better than Phil off the tee.

[Shilgy]

40 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

He's way better than Phil off the tee.

And Phil had a much better short game.  Shows they can have very similar careers with much different strengths to their game.

[CasualLie]

I could make the case that the OP has a list of overacheivers, especially Spieth.  When they first came out on Tour, nothing suggested they had the number of wins/majors in them in such a short time.  If anything, Fowler is the least of the overachievers as there is very little in his game that ever screamed "major favorite".  I suppose Spieth should get the votes because it didn't just get "hot" or was "streaky" like the others, he sustained his run for quite awhile.  As @Shilgy pointed out, his wedge game used to be off the charts good.  But he was never a particularly good driver of the ball, just didn't get in as much trouble as he does now.  IIRC, when others attributed his hot run as all putting (understandable since he was dropping in more than his fair share of long bombs), you could look at the stats and his iron striking was near the top.  Spieth did not get enough credit on iron play.

 

Soon we can revisit this thread and add to the list the guy on the cusp of a great decline - Rahm.

[Golferpaul]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

He's way better than Phil off the tee.

But do you think Rory would be happy with 45 wins and 6 majors?

[Jones55]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

I could make the case that the OP has a list of overacheivers, especially Spieth.  When they first came out on Tour, nothing suggested they had the number of wins/majors in them in such a short time.  If anything, Fowler is the least of the overachievers as there is very little in his game that ever screamed "major favorite".  I suppose Spieth should get the votes because it didn't just get "hot" or was "streaky" like the others, he sustained his run for quite awhile.  As @Shilgy pointed out, his wedge game used to be off the charts good.  But he was never a particularly good driver of the ball, just didn't get in as much trouble as he does now.  IIRC, when others attributed his hot run as all putting (understandable since he was dropping in more than his fair share of long bombs), you could look at the stats and his iron striking was near the top.  Spieth did not get enough credit on iron play.

 

Soon we can revisit this thread and add to the list the guy on the cusp of a great decline - Rahm.

And maybe Cam Smith too can be added. 

 

[Golf Scientist]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:41 AM, Golferpaul said:

Speith, Day, Fowler, and Thomas are suffering from a prolonged decline—JT, not as much as the others.  

 

Which one are you the most disappointed with?

 

Spieth:  Was #1 in the world in 2015, then fell to #92 in 2021.  He has since recovered to #25 today.

 

Day:  He was #1 in 2015, then fell to #175 in 2022. He is now #20.

 

Fowler:  He was #4 in 2015 then fell to #185 in 2022.  He is now #43.

 

Thomas: He was #1 in 2018 then fell to #29 earlier this year.  He is now #23

 

I'm most disappointed in Spieth since his pinnacle in 2015 (one of the best seasons in the history of golf) was much higher than the others.

 

As others have mentioned Day has seen improved play after a swing remodel as has Fowler to a smaller degree. I've always thought both Speith and Thomas were very overrated. As others mentioned Speith only got to where he was due to making some very lucky long putts, and at the time I suspected that wasn't going to last long term, and he'd drop off the map.

 

Rory's the only active player on the PGA Tour I can think of that has stood the test of time for roughly 10+ years. Justin Rose and Adam Scott had what i'd consider slumps, but hopefully both still have some good play and wins in their future. (Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, Nick Price, Ernie Els, and Phil Mickelson were past players that had good longevity to playing well over time). Good to see Ernie Els game coming around on the Champion's Tour with wins in his last two events.

[Ironman_32]

3 minutes ago, Golf Scientist said:

 

As others have mentioned Day has seen improved play after a swing remodel as has Fowler to a smaller degree. I've always thought both Speith and Thomas were very overrated. As others mentioned Speith only got to where he was due to making some very lucky long putts, and at the time I suspected that wasn't going to last long term, and he'd drop off the map.

 

Rory's the only active player on the PGA Tour I can think of that has stood the test of time for roughly 10+ years. Justin Rose and Adam Scott had what i'd consider slumps, but hopefully both still have some good play and wins in their future. (Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, Nick Price, Ernie Els, and Phil Mickelson were past players that had good longevity to playing well over time). Good to see Ernie Els game coming around on the Champion's Tour with wins in his last two events.

To put it in golf terms, Spieth and JT remind me of golf courses by oceans that people rave about, but if you took that course in put it in the middle of the country it wouldn't be hyped.

 

Did Spieth/JT make putts and win majors, yes that's how it goes. But I think a lot goes into them being Americans and be labeled as young, up and coming, Ryder cup guys and Tiger's friends. Take those traits away, and as I said above, they'd be more Martin Kaymer (nothing wrong with that). I also think LIV golf popping up has helped keep these guys at the fore front because the Tour is having trouble manufacturing stars. Ryder Cup standings right now are JT (17th) Rickie (35th) and Spieth (60th), will they make the team, I don't know? But ask a casual golf fan to name golfers, those three would probably be at the top of the list most could name.  

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

It's golf, so I'd say the tough thing is the perception of the player goes hand in hand with actual playing career. 

 

For example, Rickie probably shouldn't even be on this list, should be someone like Martin Kaymer, but he didn't really get any press. 

 

The thing is, golf is fleeting at the peak level.  I sometimes think we compare everyone to Tiger in that they should have years as the top golfer, when actually it's probably more year than years. 

 

I don't know that Kaymer cared all that much. He enjoyed the trophies and the money when it came but never struck me as someone who was burning to be great. It's not really a fall when you just exit stage left with your cash & prizes. Maybe he's even on the Duval train: got to the top, saw "that's all there is", and didn't feel driven to go after it anymore. 

 

He & players like Donald simply had higher peaks than many do, but I don't see Kaymer's slide back down as disappointing as a fan of golf. I never got the feeling the game mattered all that much to him beyond offering a well above average living. 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

And Phil had a much better short game.  Shows they can have very similar careers with much different strengths to their game.

Rory has 20-25 yard advantage off tee, 3/4 of his SG to field lies there. He has a 1 to 2 club advantage on GIR & proximity.He's throwing away a ton by not improving proximity & putting. Phil's great, but not all time at all.