Whose career crash has been the most disappointing?

[jonsnow]

On 6/14/2024 at 2:35 PM, Ferguson said:

 

What the hell is wrong with Ian Baker or just Baker Finch?

 

 

Baker Finch is the name of my Bread tribute band...we kind of suck:

 

 

Edited June 28, 2024 by jonsnow

[jonsnow]

Jon Snow's career crash has been most disappointing to me personally. But, I know nothing...

[Dutch1008]

20 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

Jon Snow's career crash has been most disappointing to me personally. But, I know nothing...

[Nard_S]

51 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

golf is more than those things and phil as a character is about as bad as mj ;} but noone would dare say mj was less great cause of 

Phil's on course mentality is high roller, in retrospect his chronic gambling somewhat explains style of play.  I don't know how any comparison of MJ to Phil can ever be made. Two different orbits of ''great''.

 

Look at money list for last 35 years, who dominates? Not the bunters and yes it's just probability and not absolute. Does not change preponderance that advantages go to solid big dog skills. Rory is elite in that category, it's a huge advantage. Phil is long but pretty erratic. His recovery skills and short game, his moxy served him well. 

 

I don't dislike either, hope Roors wins The Open, and does well going forward. 

[jimecherry]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Phil's on course mentality is high roller, in retrospect his chronic gambling somewhat explains style of play.  I don't know how any comparison of MJ to Phil can ever be made. Two different orbits of ''great''.

 

Look at money list for last 35 years, who dominates? Not the bunters and yes it's just probability and not absolute. Does not change preponderance that advantages go to solid big dog skills. Rory is elite in that category, it's a huge advantage. Phil is long but pretty erratic. His recovery skills and short game, his moxy served him well. 

 

I don't dislike either, hope Roors wins The Open, and does well going forward. 

jordan was known to be a gambler as part of his competitive nature.

[Nard_S]

32 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

jordan was known to be a gambler as part of his competitive nature.

Yeah, that's well known.......have no idea how it pertains to Phil..... it has zero relevance. I mean if you watched Jordan.

 

Bones mentioned how he always was trying to talk Phil out of risky decisions, how he was allowed one veto a year, you read between lines , he walked away and it wasn't the knees alone that drove that breakup. Apparently Rory is a bit the same way, he works hard but he's stubborn to change/fix things. He does his thing, not unlike Phil. His caddy choice speaks volumes. Tiger is his own too but his scope is much wider, he asks more of himself. So maybe I'm wrong, Rory living to Phil's legacy is as good as it should ever be.

[iBanesto]

10 hours ago, jonsnow said:

Jon Snow's career crash has been most disappointing to me personally. But, I know nothing...

 

[Golferpaul]

On 6/28/2024 at 9:44 AM, Nard_S said:

He's 2nd tier all-time. Anywhere from #9-#15. Great, much of his longevity got him there. He never dominated, ever. Cannot say that about a Faldo who is same tier.

 

Rory has all-time great driving, stats, he has a great swing, pound for pound he's fantastic, aspiring to match Phil's career is selling him short. 

Driving stats are meaningless.  Wins are what everybody counts.

 

Why do you denigrate longevity?  A career is defined by the entire career, not just the peak.

 

Rory is 35 and has been playing the PGAT for almost 16 years.  Very few players win much after 40. Phil and VJ are the exceptions.

 

So to match Phil, Rory probably has to win 19 times with two majors over the next five years.  I think Rory would be ecstatic to match Phil's career, but I doubt that he makes it.

[Shilgy]

On 6/28/2024 at 7:44 AM, Nard_S said:

He's 2nd tier all-time. Anywhere from #9-#15. Great, much of his longevity got him there. He never dominated, ever. Cannot say that about a Faldo who is same tier.

 

Rory has all-time great driving, stats, he has a great swing, pound for pound he's fantastic, aspiring to match Phil's career is selling him short. The pro game is about driving, great driving dominates money list. Rory has 25 yards on the field and he's supposed to aspire to him? A guy no one ever feared. Are you kidding. Phil has longevity, he has a high roller mentality in play, great short game, but that's about it. No one is mimicking Phil's swing. Why would you when there's dozens who had better. Rory might be part of few in last 25 years who could have been top tier, that won't happen, settling for Phil's status is a disappointment considering the basic advantages he has had. Be my guest idolize figjam, i cannot be bothered.

By that logic no one who played in Jack’s or Tiger’s era can be great?  Ridiculous.   Faldo became #1 but never dominated.  If being #1 is a priority then clearly you have Luke Donald as a great and at least two of Hogan Nelson Snead are not.  Certainly, then , cannot have three players dominate an era and they were all born the same year.🤯

[Nard_S]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:18 PM, Golferpaul said:

Driving stats are meaningless.

LOL.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

By that logic no one who played in Jack’s or Tiger’s era can be great?  Ridiculous.   Faldo became #1 but never dominated.

By your logic....Anyone can great, but just because he was #2 in his time it does not make him #2 all time.

 

Faldo was feared, Phil was never feared, pair Phil w/ Norman in 96, Norman wins.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

By your logic....Anyone can great, but just because he was #2 in his time it does not make him #2 all time.

 

Faldo was feared, Phil was never feared, pair Phil w/ Norman in 96, Norman wins.

No one said he was #2 all time!  Faldo was methodical….not fear inspiring.  Ask Curtis.

 

It does seem odd to me to read that anyone from the mid 90’s was great.  Seems like many post the reason Tiger was so good was because it was such a down era.  Not something I’ve ever believed but some her on wrx seem to.

[Nard_S]

33 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

No one said he was #2 all time!  Faldo was methodical….not fear inspiring.  Ask Curtis.

 

It does seem odd to me to read that anyone from the mid 90’s was great.  Seems like many post the reason Tiger was so good was because it was such a down era.  Not something I’ve ever believed but some her on wrx seem to.

Ask Greg, lol. Faldo was best of his era. Norman was #1 for 5 years, he still was not as good and Strange is not even close to him.

 

Do I think a bunch of those guys saw Tiger  and said, "no mas", yeah I do, including Nick. Do I think that era had lesser talent? No. The gear was lesser for sure. They saw a guy w/ King Cobra DF and X100 hit it 330, they looked in a mirror, and said, "yeah, that will do".

 

If a genie says, "you can have Phil's game or Nick's game, the whole thing of either", without a doubt I take Nick's. They are both closely ranked all time w/ Phil edging out. And much of that is only because of longevity and little else.

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Ask Greg, lol. Faldo was best of his era. Norman was #1 for 5 years, he still was not as good and Strange is not even close to him.

 

Do I think a bunch of those guys saw Tiger  and said, "no mas", yeah I do, including Nick. Do I think that era had lesser talent? No. The gear was lesser for sure. They saw a guy w/ King Cobra DF and X100 hit it 330, they looked in a mirror, and said, "yeah, that will do".

 

If a genie says, "you can have Phil's game or Nick's game, the whole thing of either", without a doubt I take Nick's. They are both closely ranked all time w/ Phil edging out. And much of that is only because of longevity and little else.

So to be clear…Phil can’t be an all time great because he never reached #1 AND Faldo is better than Greg even though he was #1 for a much shorter period of time?

 

I never said said Strange was close to Faldo’s career but he clearly did not fear him.

 

Faldo…like Monty and then Westwood a few years later seemingly enjoyed the big fish in a small pond life.  Both were wildly successful on the Euro Tour and had major success but couldn’t handle PGA Tour events very well.  
Faldo won 9 times in 306 PGA Tour starts.  That’s all time great material?

[Nard_S]

35 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Faldo…like Monty and then Westwood a few years later seemingly enjoyed the big fish in a small pond life.  Both were wildly successful on the Euro Tour and had major success but couldn’t handle PGA Tour events very well.  
Faldo won 9 times in 306 PGA Tour starts.  That’s all time great material?

Monty & Westwood, lol.

 

Faldo was part of the Fab Five, Euro's who cleaned everyone's clock, see Ryder Cup, see majors. He won 30X against a solid field in Europe. 6 majors, 41 wins Pro worldwide .

 

From 1987-1996, who has a better record?, player of year 3X on Euro tour, player of year PGA. Who was better? Tom Kite? Fuzzy? Floyd? The USA did have a down era, the Euro's were best in class and Faldo was part of that.

 

 

Ryder Cup record:

Nick is 23-19-4

Phil is 18-22-7.

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Monty & Westwood, lol.

 

Faldo was part of the Fab Five, Euro's who cleaned everyone's clock, see Ryder Cup, see majors. He won 30X against a solid field in Europe. 6 majors, 41 wins Pro worldwide .

 

From 1987-1996, who has a better record?, player of year 3X on Euro tour, player of year PGA. Who was better? Tom Kite? Fuzzy? Floyd? The USA did have a down era, the Euro's were best in class and Faldo was part of that.

 

 

Ryder Cup record:

Nick is 23-19-4

Phil is 18-22-7.

Since when is team performance such a factor?  Seems odd that a top 10 all time great player such as you describe would only win less than 3% of his starts against such inferior competition on the US tour.

[Golferpaul]

21 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Since when is team performance such a factor?  Seems odd that a top 10 all time great player such as you describe would only win less than 3% of his starts against such inferior competition on the US tour.

Yes, and Faldo's career isn't even close to Phil's.   Phil's PGAT win rate was double Faldo's rate.  And 45 wins vs. 9 ????? 

[Golferpaul]

32 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Monty & Westwood, lol.

 

Faldo was part of the Fab Five, Euro's who cleaned everyone's clock, see Ryder Cup, see majors. He won 30X against a solid field in Europe. 6 majors, 41 wins Pro worldwide .

 

 

Euro wins are almost worthless when ranking players.   If Faldo was so good, how come he only won nine times in 306 events? 

 

Why did he only have 17% top tens?  That's a poor record, worse than Kucher, Reed, Fowler, etc.

[Nard_S]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Since when is team performance such a factor?  Seems odd that a top 10 all time great player such as you describe would only win less than 3% of his starts against such inferior competition on the US tour.

 

 

His winning percentage on majors alone is over 7%. So......?

 

"3%",lol.

 

Again, who was best over all from 87-96? Answer: Probably no one.

 

Phil is "all-time great"? Faldo is "like Monty". Sure.

 

I mention RC because #1 US player point wise is Phil, #1 Euro is Nick. And yeah Curtis was beat head to head by Nick too, so there's that. There's also the amnesia of just how good the Euro's were, RC is a reality check of sorts. So is 18 of 40 majors in that period going to "other" than US player.

[Nard_S]

27 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Euro wins are almost worthless when ranking players.   If Faldo was so good, how come he only won nine times in 306 events? 

 

Why did he only have 17% top tens?  That's a poor record, worse than Kucher, Reed, Fowler, etc.

What's a European Tour, Yogi?

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

 

 

His winning percentage on majors alone is over 7%. So......?

 

"3%",lol.

 

Again, who was best over all from 87-96? Answer: Probably no one.

 

Phil is "all-time great"? Faldo is "like Monty". Sure.

 

I mention RC because #1 US player point wise is Phil, #1 Euro is Nick. And yeah Curtis was beat head to head by Nick too, so there's that. There's also the amnesia of just how good the Euro's were, RC is a reality check of sorts. So is 18 of 40 majors in that period going to "other" than US player.

If they were better they should have won more than half.

 You really do like taking a comment out of context and changing it, eh?  Yes, Faldo would also be an all time great but that doesn’t mean Phil wasn’t better imo.

 

 But your talking points are out of whack…Phil is not #1 in US points…he’s third.  Nick is not #1 in Euro points…Sergio is.  Does that make him an all time great?

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If they were better they should have won more than half.

 You really do like taking a comment out of context and changing it, eh?  Yes, Faldo would also be an all time great but that doesn’t mean Phil wasn’t better imo.

 

 But your talking points are out of whack…Phil is not #1 in US points…he’s third.  Nick is not #1 in Euro points…Sergio is.  Does that make him an all time great?

And "3"%" does not lack context? Please. You keep scope to PGAT and all else is vapor. I'm "out of context"?

 

Considering the weighting of US player to all others, historically & at that time that's a great stat and Nick had a 1/3 of those.

 

Excuse me on point thing, I'll stand corrected but my references said as much,  it still does not change Nick vs Phil RC wise. 

[JD3]

Duval 

[Shilgy]

29 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

And "3"%" does not lack context? Please. You keep scope to PGAT and all else is vapor. I'm "out of context"?

 

Considering the weighting of US player to all others, historically & at that time that's a great stat and Nick had a 1/3 of those.

 

Excuse me on point thing, I'll stand corrected but my references said as much,  it still does not change Nick vs Phil RC wise. 

Yes, the Euros seemed to always get much better as a “team”.  US got by for years on better talent but when it became more even they fell behind because of that lacking component imo. 
 

Ryder Cup records notwithstanding the US tour has always been a stronger tour.  That’s why I included Faldo’s relatively dismal US record.  Many of the Euro players of the day only dabbled on the US tour.  306 starts is enough to draw a conclusion.  He won 6 majors in 92 starts.  That leaves 3 tour wins in 214 starts.  Personally I’m not a believer in the majors are all that matter spiel.  Did he not care or was his precision game more suited to majors.  He won often in Europe so you would think an all time great could handle it in the US.

 

[iNeedMoreGolf]

.. double post sorry. Delete of possible. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by iNeedMoreGolf
Double post srry.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Scotty not lookin so great. Scotty cameron not scheffler. Hes 🔥. All joke to the side... spieth seemed like he would win a few more big ones. Morikawa reminds me of spieth alot so he worrys me. Justin thomas could barely win as it was thats just my opinion. Dj won a few and got a few money bags and has mailed it in. Koepka hopefully can still compete at the top. Dechambeau game seems to elevate now in majors. I think the open championships will allways be a toss up for anyone to win. Rory i think gets two more majors in his career. Rahm has looked not so good since liv switch and thats his fault. Everyone but a select few seem so content where they are imo. Kinda wierd. Ricky has mailed it in if you ask me. Like his fire is gone to win. You need 🔥 and only a select few have it. Day just wheres baggy pjs all day.

[Golfnutgalen]

All this talk about Faldo's win percentage on the PGA Tour, let's see what it was through his final win in 1996:

 

9/206 = 4.4%

 

9 wins out of 325 total - Don't forget those pre 1995 Opens!

 

---------------------

 

Here's Phil up to his final win 45/646 = 7%

 

Of course he was nearly 51 years old by then so it's not really fair. He peaked at just a shade over 9% at age 38. Faldo was 38 in 1996.

 

45/667 total.

 

 

[grm24]

7 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

Justin thomas could barely win as it was thats just my opinion.

Are you speaking of the same Justin Thomas that has more PGA Tour wins (15 wins, 2 majors & a TPC) than Spieth (13 wins, 3 majors)?

 

If JT in your words "could barely win" what does that say for Jordan? FWIW outside of Rory, JT has the most wins of any current active eligible full time PGA Tour members. 

Edited July 1, 2024 by grm24

[iNeedMoreGolf]

3 hours ago, grm24 said:

Are you speaking of the same Justin Thomas that has more PGA Tour wins (15 wins, 2 majors & a TPC) than Spieth (13 wins, 3 majors)?

 

If JT in your words "could barely win" what does that say for Jordan? FWIW outside of Rory, JT has the most wins of any current active eligible full time PGA Tour members. 

Yes that justin thomas lol all i remember is him winning tpc and pga championship. I dont remeber any of the smaller tournament wins or what other major he won. I think prime for prime jordan was better. Thats just my opinion. Not saying hes terrible or nothing but... theres 50 other guys id pick to win at any time then him.

[iBanesto]

13 minutes ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

Yes that justin thomas lol all i remember is him winning tpc and pga championship. I dont remeber any of the smaller tournament wins or what other major he won. I think prime for prime jordan was better. Thats just my opinion. Not saying hes terrible or nothing but... theres 50 other guys id pick to win at any time then him.

 

Well the point is Justin Thomas is a winner and not a player who "could barely win".

 

In regards to his other "smaller tournament wins or what other major he won", he has won 15 PGA Tour events including:

• A 2nd PGA Championship
• 2 WGC events
• 2 FedEx Cup playoff events
• Most of his other wins are in decent fields