Switched to graphite and lost distance

[JermWRX]

I switched to graphite this year to take some pressure off my joints. I play 15-20 rounds/ month. So I've got 40ish rounds on my irons. They're much smoother and feel fantastic, so no complaints. My body feels much better after rounds. They are a club shorter, though. It's not the end of the world, but I figured I'd see if it's normal. I played Modus 120S for a long time. I'm playing MMT 105S now. I was thinking about giving SteelFiber a shot. 

[phizzy30]

Same heads in same lofts compared to when you had the Modus 120? 

[AmateurAmateur]

Not really normal. I switched to MMT (from PX 6.5) and found I hit it further because it launched higher with less spin. 

[cyr67]

I had the exact same results. Went from ProModus 120X to Steelfiber i95 in stiff…and lost distance. Not a lot, but the exact opposite of what I figured would happen. I went loft for loft with my original Srixon 965 irons in the Nippons with my new PXG 0317 CB’s in the Steelfibers. It was very unexpected, and I gave the Steelfibers a lot of time. A buddy of mine gained 10 yards making a similar change to Steelfibers, so I was nonplussed. I never liked the feel or weight of the Steelfibers. In the end, I reshafted the 0317’s in PX 6.0 and I was back in business. I would appreciate someone to explain or offer a theory as to how I lost distance as it seems counterintuitive. My suggestion: stick to steel. I never felt that the Steelfibers were better for my osteoarthritis in my shoulder either, so there was no point for graphite for me. 

[JermWRX]

27 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Same heads in same lofts compared to when you had the Modus 120? 

Yes. Both 923 HMP

[mizuno player]

What are the weight differences between the shafts? If they are lighter it could be throwing off your delivery of the club to ball? Or maybe causing early release of the club?  Just a thought. 

[JermWRX]

17 minutes ago, AmateurAmateur said:

Not really normal. I switched to MMT (from PX 6.5) and found I hit it further because it launched higher with less spin. 

I don't have any concrete evidence like a launch monitor or anything, but by my eye and feel, it seems they're going a touch higher than Modus. But, they also seem like they're more spinny than the Modus. It seems like my shots flutter in the air more, if that makes sense? For instance, today I flushed shots on a few par 3s at my home course, and came up 10 yards short. 

[JermWRX]

2 minutes ago, mizuno player said:

What are the weight differences between the shafts? If they are lighter it could be throwing off your delivery of the club to ball? Or maybe causing early release of the club?  Just a thought. 

This was a thought when I made the switch, but stock weights according to manufacturer are 114g for Modus and 105g for MMT. Is 9g really a big difference?

[Ri_Redneck]

I would be curious to know what the balance point difference is between the two sets club to club? 9g isn't much, but if the balance is different also, it can be cumulative and affect your timing. The other thing is, do the shafts feel as tight as the Modus? Do you still feel you can swing them with the same authority? The MMT have a higher torque than the steel Modus shafts which can make them feel a bit looser. If your subconscious is doubting they will take the same effort as your old clubs, you could be taking a shade off your swing and not even know it.

 

BT

[JermWRX]

40 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I would be curious to know what the balance point difference is between the two sets club to club? 9g isn't much, but if the balance is different also, it can be cumulative and affect your timing. The other thing is, do the shafts feel as tight as the Modus? Do you still feel you can swing them with the same authority? The MMT have a higher torque than the steel Modus shafts which can make them feel a bit looser. If your subconscious is doubting they will take the same effort as your old clubs, you could be taking a shade off your swing and not even know it.

 

BT

There could definitely be something to this. I haven't thought much about it but,  I do feel like because it's "graphite" I'm supposed to try to be more fluid and rhythmic. When in fact, the best golf I play is when I'm aggressive through the ball. I catch myself kind of short arming it sometimes, because I'm afraid to overpower the shaft. This is going to be a conscious thought tomorrow at the range before my round. Thank you👍🏻

[LeftyMatt24]

3 hours ago, AmateurAmateur said:

Not really normal. I switched to MMT (from PX 6.5) and found I hit it further because it launched higher with less spin. 

Same experience here. The trouble is finding the right gaps, it just took some getting used to and launch monitors. 

[phizzy30]

3 hours ago, JermWRX said:

This was a thought when I made the switch, but stock weights according to manufacturer are 114g for Modus and 105g for MMT. Is 9g really a big difference?

9 grams can make a shaft feel different although balance point is a big factor as well.  MMT are tip heavy so they tend to swing weight out heavier in general.  Not sure about the Modus 120 but if it's balance point is higher, then the irons will swing weight out lower which could throw off your delivery into the ball thus leading to all sorts of issues. 

[Howard_Jones]

5 hours ago, JermWRX said:

This was a thought when I made the switch, but stock weights according to manufacturer are 114g for Modus and 105g for MMT. Is 9g really a big difference?

it can be, and its easy to figure that out 
- simply add 9 grams of lead tape on one shaft ( find the aprx middle, set a mark there, let the tape go equally in both directions head to grip from that mark.) 

Now we have done our best to simulate the same shaft wgt, so if that's the reason you are shorter, that test will tell. 

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I do feel like because it's "graphite" I'm supposed to try to be more fluid and rhythmic.

 

Definitely not true.   You should never have to change your swing for any equipment change.

 

6 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I catch myself kind of short arming it sometimes, because I'm afraid to overpower the shaft.

 

FWIW, You can't over power a shaft.    However,  that type of feel is not uncommon if you ended up with shafts that are too soft for you.  If you feel like the shafts loads too much during your normal, aggressive swing,  that can still have a negative effect on the swing and could mean the stiffness profile might not be a good fit for you.

 

 

[JermWRX]

This place is the best. Anytime I have a question or issue, there's a wealth of suggestions and answers. You all are awesome👍🏻

[Wardonation]

13 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I don't have any concrete evidence like a launch monitor or anything, but by my eye and feel, it seems they're going a touch higher than Modus. But, they also seem like they're more spinny than the Modus. It seems like my shots flutter in the air more, if that makes sense? For instance, today I flushed shots on a few par 3s at my home course, and came up 10 yards short. 

I can almost guarantee it is due to spin.

[JermWRX]

17 minutes ago, Wardonation said:

I can almost guarantee it is due to spin.

Not much I can do about that, other than a shaft change, correct?

[Stuart_G]

11 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

Not much I can do about that, other than a shaft change, correct?

 

Actually - it's much more likely the fact that you're not swinging your normal swing.

 

But if you still see similar height/distance problems after reverting to your normal swing,  one thing to try before changing shafts is to play around with some lead tape on the heads.  Sometimes increasing the swing weight might slow down the release a little bit and reduce the dynamic loft delivered.   Worst case if it doesn't work you can remove the lead tape.

 

Other than that, possibly moving to a stiffer/heavier shaft might help.   The modus 120 is fairly soft in the butt and mid section, but it does have a firmer tip.   As always, test out or demo a single shaft before committing to a full set.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Stuart_G

[JermWRX]

2 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Actually - it's much more likely the fact that you're not swinging your normal swing.

 

But if you still see similar height/distance problems after reverting to your normal swing,  one thing to try before changing shafts is to play around with some lead tape on the heads.  Sometimes increasing the swing weight might slow down the release a little bit and reduce the dynamic loft delivered.   Worst case if it doesn't work you can remove the lead tape.

 

Other than that, possibly moving to a stiffer shaft might help.   As always, test out or demo a single shaft before committing to a full set.

Off to grab some lead tape, and hit the range👍🏻

[vtpachyderm]

I did something similar - went from Project X LZ 120 6.0 to Recoil 95 F4 in the same head (Cobra MIM Tours) at the start of this year. Was a different build i.e. didn't pull shafts but got a new set. Switched due to elbow issues and in that regard the switch to Recoils worked brilliantly - pretty much eliminated pain in the joint. A shot flush off the middle feels like butter (as they say) - much softer than the LZ's.

 

I have not seen any loss of distance - maybe gained half a club length, and I think it's because I feel like I can actually go at it harder with the Recoils due to them being lighter in weight. With the LZ's, I let the club do more of the work if it makes any sense - result is that I swing just a little bit faster. There is more spin in the recoils (seen visually) as I get less rollout, and the ball flight is a touch higher - but the increase in ball speed probably evens it out distance wise. Initial drawback was that because I could manipulate/steer the club more easily, strike location was a bit inconsistent and was missing both ways as I was so used to letting the club just fall into the swing with the LZ's. But after some practice and getting used to playing with them, am almost back to feeling pretty good about my iron play.

 

I still have steel in my wedges, but that's because I swing more with my body than arms with them - hardly any full swings, and the extra weight feels better for me.

[Mike_C]

1 hour ago, Wardonation said:

I can almost guarantee it is due to spin.

I got a set of Ping i200 when they came out, ordered with Recoil 110s, and had Ping make them up at D3, even though Ping stock swingweight was D0, and powerspec lofts too.   I had tried some other clubs with Recoil 95s and 125s, and in every case, I seemed to see a bit of extra distance vs steel.   I had only demoed the i200 with steel shafts and hit them pretty far.  With the Pings and the 110s, I lost distance, and it was clearly spin.   The Recoil 110 is sort of odd, softer tipped than the Recoil 95 or 125, plus adding in more weight to the head caused me to spin those irons like crazy.  I got rid of them after a couple months and went back to the 95s in a set of Srixons.....

[speedeuphoria]

1 hour ago, JermWRX said:

Not much I can do about that, other than a shaft change, correct?

Ball change could help if it lines up with rest of clubs also

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, JermWRX said:

Off to grab some lead tape, and hit the range👍🏻

 

If you want/need to test if the change in shaft weight might be influencing the results - you can also wrap the lead tape around the shaft - about 4"-6" below the bottom of the grip.    Just keep the shaft weight and head weight tests somewhat separate at first.

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, JermWRX said:

Not much I can do about that, other than a shaft change, correct?

You can change to a lower spinning ball to see if that helps any. 

[NJBigFish22]

I switched from modus 105 to Recoil when I got fit into my Titleist.  I gained height and yards, but still felt I wasn’t getting what I should so I went to MMT 85R, and again gained 12 yards on average.  Only thing I can think is that I just fit into the MMT better.  Some shafts just perform better for certain people.

[rsyutzy]

18 hours ago, JermWRX said:

I switched to graphite this year to take some pressure off my joints. I play 15-20 rounds/ month. So I've got 40ish rounds on my irons. They're much smoother and feel fantastic, so no complaints. My body feels much better after rounds. They are a club shorter, though. It's not the end of the world, but I figured I'd see if it's normal. I played Modus 120S for a long time. I'm playing MMT 105S now. I was thinking about giving SteelFiber a shot. 

I'm looking to get in to graphite for the same reason (golfers elbow). I currently play Modus 120s in Mizuno 223 pros. Went to Golf Galaxy and tested out Steelfiber i95 stiff in the 243 pro (which should play very similar to my 223's) and was getting 5-10 more yards with similar spin and a little more height. Was very impressed. As someone else mentioned the gains could just be from having a lighter shaft so I was able to increase clubhead speed. Shaft felt very stable also. They have Trackman and used Pro V RCT balls so I feel comfortable that they were accurate readings. 

[JermWRX]

7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

If you want/need to test if the change in shaft weight might be influencing the results - you can also wrap the lead tape around the shaft - about 4"-6" below the bottom of the grip.    Just keep the shaft weight and head weight tests somewhat separate at first.

Only one range session, so not much to be gained. However, here's what I did:

 

40 balls with 9g of tape on the shaft where you said to put it. Definitely felt the difference. Results were ok, but I couldn't really feel the head. 
 

40 balls with same 9g on shaft, and 6g on the head (centered in the cavity). Accuracy got better. I felt more control, and more power. Distance/spin was tougher to judge because its range balls and it was windy. 
 

As an aside, you definitely know your stuff when it comes to these questions. I've noticed that over time, and seeing your comments in lots of posts. I switched my G430 2 hybrid shaft from Tour Chrome 85x to Velocore Blue 10x. First day with it, and it's night and day. No hooks. Draw, straight, and fade if I want to. Definitely longer, and middled the strike consistently. I don't know if that gives you an idea of a shaft profile that might fit for me or not. I have Ventus Blue 6x in driver, and Ventus Blue TR 7x in Stealth 3HL. They work for me. I'm not a fast swinger at all, compared to guys on here. Driver is 100-105. So it's never made sense that X shafts work for me, but they do. From that info, do you think I should be looking for heavier and/or stiffer shafts for my irons? MMT makes a 125TX. Or maybe a SteelFiber, since I hear that they tend to play stiffer? I know, probably way too much info, but I figured I'd give it a shot😂 Thanks!!

[Stuart_G]

25 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

Only one range session, so not much to be gained. However, here's what I did:

 

40 balls with 9g of tape on the shaft where you said to put it. Definitely felt the difference. Results were ok, but I couldn't really feel the head. 
 

40 balls with same 9g on shaft, and 6g on the head (centered in the cavity). Accuracy got better. I felt more control, and more power. Distance/spin was tougher to judge because its range balls and it was windy. 

 

What about the general trajectory?   Still high or did that get better from the first session w/o the tape?

 

Just for the sake of seeing if you can manage with these shafts (or really this weight shaft), I might try with the added head weight but no weight added to the shaft to see if the swing weight increase by itself is enough to get good results.

 

 

27 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

They work for me. I'm not a fast swinger at all, compared to guys on here. Driver is 100-105. So it's never made sense that X shafts work for me, but they do.

 

It's very common that an aggressive transition will tend to put people into stiffer shafts than the swing speed alone might indicate.  

 

The only thing that doesn't fit about that is your previous choice of the Modus 120's.   In reality, their stiffness more closesly matches a shaft of one flex softer compared to other OEM's iron shafts.     It also might mean that the stiffness might not be as important in the shorter playing length (and sometimes) slightly more controlled swing of the irons.    Or it could mean that the tip stiffness is more important to you than the butt/mid section of the shaft that the flex is more commonly chosen from.

 

32 minutes ago, JermWRX said:

From that info, do you think I should be looking for heavier and/or stiffer shafts for my irons? MMT makes a 125TX. Or maybe a SteelFiber, since I hear that they tend to play stiffer?

 

First of all, it's not really clear yet on whether the stiffness is a problem with the current MMT's.   Unless maybe they was something about the feel that you didn't like when you started using your normal more aggressive swing  with them in this last session?

 

The only other way to answer that question is to do some more side by side testing with different stiffness options that are the same weight.  

 

Not a lot of options with the heavier graphite and no one shaft stands out a whole lot more than the others.   Except I might say don't bother with the steelfiber FC series (FC115).  They do have as ofter tip.  Stick to the i-series with the steelfibers as a possible option due to the stiffer tips.   But that doesn't mean that going to the 125 TX in the MMT might not also be worth trying.   My only suggestion would be to keep in mind that if you do go with the steelfibers, you might not need to go to the X, the stiff might be stiff enough.   Also with the SF i110's - they have a high balance point so definitely make sure the swing weight is managed properly in whatever demo or test club you try.  When you do that, they actually play more like a 116-8 gm shaft, not a 110 gm shaft.

 

But my main suggestion is get the shaft weight and swing weight figured out first - that's (and maybe your budget) might significantly limit what options you have to choose from.

 

[JermWRX]

33 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

What about the general trajectory?   Still high or did that get better from the first session w/o the tape?

 

Just for the sake of seeing if you can manage with these shafts (or really this weight shaft), I might try with the added head weight but no weight added to the shaft to see if the swing weight increase by itself is enough to get good results.

 

 

 

It's very common that an aggressive transition will tend to put people into stiffer shafts than the swing speed alone might indicate.  

 

The only thing that doesn't fit about that is your previous choice of the Modus 120's.   In reality, their stiffness more closesly matches a shaft of one flex softer compared to other OEM's iron shafts.     It also might mean that the stiffness might not be as important in the shorter playing length (and sometimes) slightly more controlled swing of the irons.    Or it could mean that the tip stiffness is more important to you than the butt/mid section of the shaft that the flex is more commonly chosen from.

 

 

First of all, it's not really clear yet on whether the stiffness is a problem with the current MMT's.   Unless maybe they was something about the feel that you didn't like when you started using your normal more aggressive swing  with them in this last session?

 

The only other way to answer that question is to do some more side by side testing with different stiffness options that are the same weight.  

 

Not a lot of options with the heavier graphite and no one shaft stands out a whole lot more than the others.   Except I might say don't bother with the steelfiber FC series (FC115).  They do have as ofter tip.  Stick to the i-series with the steelfibers as a possible option due to the stiffer tips.   But that doesn't mean that going to the 125 TX in the MMT might not also be worth trying.   My only suggestion would be to keep in mind that if you do go with the steelfibers, you might not need to go to the X, the stiff might be stiff enough.   Also with the SF i110's - they have a high balance point so definitely make sure the swing weight is managed properly in whatever demo or test club you try.  When you do that, they actually play more like a 116-8 gm shaft, not a 110 gm shaft.

 

But my main suggestion is get the shaft weight and swing weight figured out first - that's (and maybe your budget) might significantly limit what options you have to choose from.

 

Thank you! So much awesome info!! I'm playing tomorrow. I'll play 18 with 6g added to the head. I'll take the tape off the shafts, as per your suggestion. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 6/9/2024 at 4:14 PM, JermWRX said:

I switched to graphite this year to take some pressure off my joints. I play 15-20 rounds/ month. So I've got 40ish rounds on my irons. They're much smoother and feel fantastic, so no complaints. My body feels much better after rounds. They are a club shorter, though. It's not the end of the world, but I figured I'd see if it's normal. I played Modus 120S for a long time. I'm playing MMT 105S now. I was thinking about giving SteelFiber a shot. 

Since 2023, I have been playing new traditional lofted T100 irons with MMT 95S in 3i & 4i, and 105S in 5i-PW.  Yes, there's been a few yards lost, albeit minimal in short irons.  IME, that's the aging process and I seldom swing as hard as I do with long irons or heavier steel irons like my PX in 620 MB backup set.  Thus, I can only blame the loss on me.

 

My guess is: It has something to do with you and your mechanics, maybe the heads because it's NOT the shafts.