Drills or feels for moving the trail hip correctly in the backswing.

[ZGriswold83]

I don't think Im actually moving my trail hip back and then have the lead hip move back to meet up. I think I'm still just moving my lead hip. I find it difficult to get this feeling of moving my trail hip. Is there a drill or feel that will help me get there?

[slytown]

Do you mean get the trail hip deeper or have the lead hip move laterally? Those are two different motions.

 

I would have to see your swing. I would caution against actively moving your hips, god forbid turning your hips. I would focus more on shoulder rotation. The hips will follow your shoulders. If you don't have good shoulder rotation, you won't have that deep hip pocket. Everyone has different levels of flexibility, so the hip depth doesn't really matter.

 

If you have a proper set up and try to just tilt instead of turn in the backswing, this will cause you to slide, and you won't achieve that deep hip pocket.

 

There are ways to actively tilt, shift weight, put pressure into your trail foot, etc. to add power, but you don't need to do that. Just focus on getting the club in a good position and turning as far as feels comfortable for you and puts you in a position where getting back to the golf ball isn't overly difficult.

 

Think of the hips, legs, and feet as a base. You want the most stable base possible to hit the ball solid. If you added "turning your hips" into the swing, you one, would have to turn your  hips in the downswing, which overcomplicates the downswing, and two, you would lose your stable base.

 

I recommend simply finding your shoulder turn. Use this drill. If you aren't getting a very good shoulder turn like in the video, you could do some things like flare the trail foot.

 

 

[wagolfer7]

It's not a simple move for most.  And it's really hard to isolate one thing like this, when it works together with others.  

 

But this I think is the best place to start.  Try to get the "crease" or "fold" in your pants that Padraig shows in this video.  You can do this without a club.  Just try to understand which direction your turning into that trail leg / hip.  I posted other videos of Padraig that I think tie into the whole package.  You need to feel that stretching of upper and lower body going up. 

 

Also everyone has their "own" feels.  But I disagree with @slytown.  The hips do turn.  You just want them to turn the correction direction.  That is not horizontally turning them.  It's more up and behind. 

 

Here's the Padraig explanation and "crease" drill.  Starts around 1:35:

 

Here's one on the shoulders.  Also talking about feeling that stretch pulling up.  

 

And finally this one, kind of ties it all together if further explanation needed.

 

Edited June 20, 2024 by wagolfer7

[ZGriswold83]

55 minutes ago, slytown said:

Do you mean get the trail hip deeper or have the lead hip move laterally? Those are two different motions.

 

I would have to see your swing. I would caution against actively moving your hips, god forbid turning your hips. I would focus more on shoulder rotation. The hips will follow your shoulders. If you don't have good shoulder rotation, you won't have that deep hip pocket. Everyone has different levels of flexibility, so the hip depth doesn't really matter.

 

If you have a proper set up and try to just tilt instead of turn in the backswing, this will cause you to slide, and you won't achieve that deep hip pocket.

 

There are ways to actively tilt, shift weight, put pressure into your trail foot, etc. to add power, but you don't need to do that. Just focus on getting the club in a good position and turning as far as feels comfortable for you and puts you in a position where getting back to the golf ball isn't overly difficult.

 

Think of the hips, legs, and feet as a base. You want the most stable base possible to hit the ball solid. If you added "turning your hips" into the swing, you one, would have to turn your  hips in the downswing, which overcomplicates the downswing, and two, you would lose your stable base.

 

I recommend simply finding your shoulder turn. Use this drill. If you aren't getting a very good shoulder turn like in the video, you could do some things like flare the trail foot.

 

 

Thanks for the detailed write up. I have been in the middle of a swing change for the past few years, going from almost no hip rotation and back pain to a much more rotational swing. I have been focusing on pressure shift and I cannot find a good way to consistently get pressure forward without my weight going forward as well. I thought maybe it was because of 'fake' rotation in my backswing.

[MonteScheinblum]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[ZGriswold83]

3 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

It's not a simple move for most.  And it's really hard to isolate one thing like this, when it works together with others.  

 

But this I think is the best place to start.  Try to get the "crease" or "fold" in your pants that Padraig shows in this video.  You can do this without a club.  Just try to understand which direction your turning into that trail leg / hip.  I posted other videos of Padraig that I think tie into the whole package.  You need to feel that stretching of upper and lower body going up. 

 

Also everyone has their "own" feels.  But I disagree with @slytown.  The hips do turn.  You just want them to turn the correction direction.  That is not horizontally turning them.  It's more up and behind. 

 

Here's the Padraig explanation and "crease" drill.  Starts around 1:35:

 

Here's one on the shoulders.  Also talking about feeling that stretch pulling up.  

 

And finally this one, kind of ties it all together if further explanation needed.

 

These Paddy lessons are all so good. I have just had difficulty putting them into practice. I often describe my issue as feeling like I'm hovering above the ground, it doesn't feel like I have anything to push into the ground especially trying to shift pressure to the lead side. So I'm assuming it's a poor backswing or lack of understanding on how to move pressure to the lead foot without moving mass.

[wagolfer7]

Just now, ZGriswold83 said:

These Paddy lessons are all so good. I have just had difficulty putting them into practice. I often describe my issue as feeling like I'm hovering above the ground, it doesn't feel like I have anything to push into the ground especially trying to shift pressure to the lead side. So I'm assuming it's a poor backswing or lack of understanding on how to move pressure to the lead foot without moving mass.

 

Well there's nothing wrong with moving mass.  We see a lot PGA players move mass towards the target in transition.  

 

However - you are probably doing something in the backswing, that is making it much harder to move to the lead side.  A common issue is increasing your "tilt" away from the target.  If you do that, then it's really hard to get off the trail side, because your tilt puts your momentum the wrong way.  You want to "feel" like your tilting more towards the target.  Trail side gets higher, so it makes you want to "fall" towards the lead side.    

[wagolfer7]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

@ZGriswold83 - or you can watch this simple 90 second video, that explains it very well and has a good drill to get it down.  

Edited June 20, 2024 by wagolfer7

[ZGriswold83]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

If I have been shifting improperly for the entirety of my golfing life, could a proper shift feel like I'm dumping A LOT of my 'weight' forward? I've been going through power shift again lately to see if I got anything different out of it. When I do those movments it feels like I'm not shifting back at all and going straight into my lead foot. I know feel isn't real, but I also don't want to do the move wrong.

[MonteScheinblum]

Yes.  Everyone who would be put in a tour level pelvis movement would almost all say it’s a reverse pivot/weight shift.

[coops]

This one - good for lazy hips, like mine, early extension and more

 

 

[Ripper212]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes.  Everyone who would be put in a tour level pelvis movement would almost all say it’s a reverse pivot/weight shift.

Exactly what you told me at our lesson a few years ago. And what I keep forgetting, along with everything else!

[TheDeanAbides]

11 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

The trail what?  I’m a pretty darn good driver of the golf ball and I have no idea whatsoever what my hippity dips are doing in the golf swing. I just know what a swing that gets me to solid contact feels like.  How do people play good golf with thoughts about specific body parts going through their head during the swing?

What an odd comment. If you're making a move incorrectly you have to do it consciously at first in order to correct it and play better. This is true if you're a 20 or +9.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

If you're making a move incorrectly you have to do it consciously at first in order to correct it and play better.

No idea why so many don’t understand this concept or why some say things can’t be taught yet in the same post say it can be learned.
 

If one can’t do any movement whether golf swing, throwing a baseball, running or walking properly they need to be shown how to do it, given drills that teach them them new pattern and then practice it over and over til it becomes natural. Even then it has to be practiced to maintain it.

 

This is how the brain and the body work, it’s actually science 

[Ajgaguy83]

For me it’s #6 - shaft drill in Monte’s Power Shift series. I find this to be a good combo with the wall drill he posted above. 

[Archimedes65]

7 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What an odd comment. If you're making a move incorrectly you have to do it consciously at first in order to correct it and play better. This is true if you're a 20 or +9.

 

So there’s only one way to get to a good impact position?  And the only (best) way to learn it is by trying to memorize very specific movements with specific body parts?  And if you’re a +9 why do you have to learn or correct anything, as whatever you’re already doing with your hips would seem to be working out okay.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Archimedes65

[Archimedes65]

5 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

No idea why so many don’t understand this concept or why some say things can’t be taught yet in the same post say it can be learned.
 

If one can’t do any movement whether golf swing, throwing a baseball, running or walking properly they need to be shown how to do it, given drills that teach them them new pattern and then practice it over and over til it becomes natural. 

 

Or, or, and I’m just spitballing here…they could learn the basics of grip, stance and posture, then take their natural swing and discover the tweaks required to obtain the feel of good impact position.  Then practice and groove that.  That seems to have worked for a lot of people.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Or, or, and I’m just spitballing here…they could learn the basics of grip, stance and posture, then take their natural swing and discover the tweaks required to obtain the feel of good impact position.  Then practice and groove that.  That seems to have worked for a lot of people.

The problem is what’s a natural swing in golf is the opposite of what a good golf swing is. This is discussed over and over in this section. The golf swing itself is a non natural movement. Natural swings have the club face in the wrong position and the body makes all kinds of compensations.

 

Monte talks about all the “natural” swings he sees on the lesson tee and how they are bad.

 

The golf swing is a complex movement. Therefore some people have to learn certain movements while others don’t. Monte talks about despite his ability to play tour level golf and still hit 120 mph swing speed he still struggles with shift and has to focus on it. 
 

If you want to know the science behind it, it’s about motor neurons and motor pathway. The golfer has to train using slower reps over an extended period of time to retrain their motor patterns. The slow rep training is what’s known as closed loop. Then as the movement is retrained and eventually becomes a more normal movement patter the golfer moves onto open loop movements. 
 

This is applicable to any movement change whether it’s the golf swing, learning to walk again, changing one’s throwing motion and so on

Edited June 21, 2024 by GoGoErky

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

So there’s only one way to get to a good impact position?  And the only (best) way to learn it is by trying to memorize very specific movements with specific body parts?  And if you’re a +9 why do you have to learn or correct anything, as whatever you’re already doing with your hips would seem to be working out okay.

 

 

There are things that good golfers do and things not good golfers do. Doing more of what the good golfers do makes getting to a good impact position easier.

 

 

[Archimedes65]

18 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The problem is what’s a natural swing in golf is the opposite of what a good golf swing is. This is discussed over and over in this section. The golf swing itself is a non natural movement. Natural swings have the club face in the wrong position and the body makes all kinds of compensations.

 

Monte talks about all the “natural” swings he sees on the lesson tee and how they are bad.

 

The golf swing is a complex movement. Therefore some people have to learn certain movements while others don’t. Monte talks about despite his ability to play tour level golf and still hit 120 mph swing speed he still struggles with shift and has to focus on it. 

 

But you just made my point.  If he’s playing tour level golf, why does his less than perfect shift matter?  I know plenty of very good golfers, including one who played Division I golf, who never took a lesson in their life.  If you asked them about their trail hip they’d look at you with glazed eyes, but their position through impact is terrific.

 

My point is that IMO (again, IMO) golf teachers sometimes make things way too complex for the average amateur golfer.  If our pro started talking about my trail hip, I’d cut him off before he finished his sentence.  Don’t know, don’t care.  All I care about is my ball flight.

 

I was playing in a tournament last week and was driving the ball really well.  After one drive, one of our competitors commented that he liked how I opened my feet and how I cleared my hips through impact.  I told him I had no idea what he’s talking about.

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Archimedes65

[Ajgaguy83]

[GoGoErky]

25 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

But you just made my point.  If he’s playing tour level golf, why does his less than perfect shift matter?  I know plenty of very good golfers, including one who played Division I golf, who never took a lesson in their life.  If you asked them about their trail hip they’d look at you with glazed eyes, but their position through impact is terrific.

Because contact isn’t as good when be doesn’t and it causes issues. That’s like the analogy used in several of these threads. Than mentality is saying 3+2=5 for awhile so just keep at it rather than saying it actually =4 and let me use that. Doing things the proper way means less compensations and this better results and better consistency 

 

28 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

My point is that IMO (again, IMO) golf teachers sometimes make things way too complex for the average amateur golfer.  If our pro started talking about my trail hip, I’d cut him off before he finished his sentence.  Don’t know, don’t care.  All I care about is my ball flight.

Good teachers do the opposite of this. The generalization of teachers based on one’s dislike for the technicalities of the swing just shows a lack of understanding and is pointless.

 

It’s not different than any other learning. Some learn visually, some learn from hands on, some need detailed explanation and some don’t. Good teachers regarded of subject have the ability to communicate with all students in a manner for each one to understand. 
 

If your ball flight is caused by bad pivot the teacher is going to tell you why and what you need to do. 
 

What would you want your pro to tell you to fix your ball flight?

 

 

[KD1]

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

That seems to have worked for a lot of people.

 

Define "a lot". Considering 95% of golfers can't break 80...

 

 

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

discover the tweaks required to obtain the feel of good impact position

 

tweaks like moving your hips more functionally/efficiently?

[NittanyCPA]

44 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But you just made my point.  If he’s playing tour level golf, why does his less than perfect shift matter?  I know plenty of very good golfers, including one who played Division I golf, who never took a lesson in their life.  If you asked them about their trail hip they’d look at you with glazed eyes, but their position through impact is terrific.

 

My point is that IMO (again, IMO) golf teachers sometimes make things way too complex for the average amateur golfer.  If our pro started talking about my trail hip, I’d cut him off before he finished his sentence.  Don’t know, don’t care.  All I care about is my ball flight.

 

I was playing in a tournament last week and was driving the ball really well.  After one drive, one of our competitors commented that he liked how I opened my feet and how I cleared my hips through impact.  I told him I had no idea what he’s talking about.

 

Seriously, what level of competition are you playing that players are commenting on another player's setup and mechanics? As weird as that is, it's even more so you're that oblivious to those and other facets of your own swing.

[byoung14]

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

So there’s only one way to get to a good impact position?  And the only (best) way to learn it is by trying to memorize very specific movements with specific body parts?

 

Yeah, so, that's not really what he said at all.

 

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

I know plenty of very good golfers, including one who played Division I golf, who never took a lesson in their life.

 

I know a lot more crappy golfers that have never taken a lesson.

 

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

If you asked them about their trail hip they’d look at you with glazed eyes, but their position through impact is terrific.

 

Good for them?

 

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

If our pro started talking about my trail hip, I’d cut him off before he finished his sentence.

 

Yeah, because "we're going to try to get your trail hip to work more like this (demonstrating)" is soooooooo complex.

 

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

All I care about is my ball flight.

 

How you move your body and the club affects your ball flight.

 

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

OP, here’s what you do.  First, tuck a golf glove under your left armpit to ensure keeping that arm close to your body.  Next, strap an aiming stick across your chest just below your arms, with a laser point on the end closest to down range.  You’ll use that to ensure you’re maintaining proper spine angle during your turn. Now, take a medium strength resistance band, wrap it around your waist, crossing over at your belly button.  Attach one end to a stick in the ground five feet down your target line and the other to a stick five feet back on your target line.  Now, as you make your hip turn, have someone plucking both the front and back sections of the resistance band and calling out the relative frequencies.  In your head, calculate the square of the relative frequency change per second and if it is above 1, that means you’re leading by turning the trailing hip back; below 1 you’re not.  During your next round, keep in mind the goal of keeping that relative frequency change square above one.

 

Honest question: if nobody needs instruction, why are you hanging out in the "Instruction & Academy" forum?

[KD1]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Honest question: if nobody needs instruction, why are you hanging out in the "Instruction & Academy" forum?

I was fully expecting a dplane lesson featuring trash can lids.

[Chopper Dave]

On 6/22/2024 at 7:57 AM, iacas said:

 

Yeah, so, that's not really what he said at all.

 

 

I know a lot more crappy golfers that have never taken a lesson.

 

 

Good for them?

 

 

Yeah, because "we're going to try to get your trail hip to work more like this (demonstrating)" is soooooooo complex.

 

 

How you move your body and the club affects your ball flight.

 

 

Honest question: if nobody needs instruction, why are you hanging out in the "Instruction & Academy" forum?

Rantamedes tends to go off on…tangents 

 

[vernon]

I like this.