Rules Question

[Moonlightgrm]

Playing in our Thursday night men’s league in steady rain, our pro informs us that due to the conditions, we will be playing lift, clean, and place everywhere. No liberties with positioning the ball, using the 6-inch rule. My match is all square coming to our final hole. It’s a par 3 modeled after Augusta National’s 12th hole. The green has a false front that causes many shots to roll down the hill into the pond. My opponent’s ball has rolled down the hill, across the red hazard line, but inches short of the water. My ball is on the green with a birdie putt of approximately 15-feet. I did not witness what my opponent did, but another fellow in our group walked over to me and whispered, “your opponent placed his ball on a tuft of grass within the hazard line”. He played a beautiful pitch to about 2 1/2 feet. If we are playing lift, clean, and place everywhere, does that include inside the hazard line? We halved the hole in pars and I made no issue of what allegedly occurred. It’s Saturday afternoon and I’ve been thinking about it. Was there a rules violation? I won’t lose a second of sleep over it, but am curious as to the ruling. I may ask our pro, but don’t want to make a big deal out of it. 
 

One more thing to add, regarding my opponent. He played by the book for our entire match, including a wayward drive he hit that landed at the base of a rotting tree stump. He could have fudged his placement but adhered to the 6” rule. Very honorable! 

[Hawkeye77]

If the pro declared "everywhere" I don't think you can fault someone for taking it literally.  

[Mr. Bean]

Your "pro" has no clue where lift, clean & place is supposed to be limited to.

[Mr. Bean]

What does "He could have fudged his placement " mean?

[Hawkeye77]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Your "pro" has no clue where lift, clean & place is supposed to be limited to.

Possibly, or because of the conditions and it being golf league just chose to make it more expansive than the Rules would suggest for convenience.  If the Rules were strictly followed in our league, we’d only have about 3 teams, lol. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

If the pro declared "everywhere" I don't think you can fault someone for taking it literally.  

“Everywhere in the general area” would have been more correct, and maybe (?) that is what the pro intended but didn’t say. 

[jdcho]

I doubt lift, clean and place applies to balls in a penalty area. 
 

If the ball had ended up in the water, would he have been able to lift the ball out of the water without penalty?

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, jdcho said:

I doubt lift, clean and place applies to balls in a penalty area. 
 

If the ball had ended up in the water, would he have been able to lift the ball out of the water without penalty?

It doesn't as would normally be played but the pro declared "everywhere", so there it is.  

[jdcho]

Reason why I hate playing the ball “up”

when playing for something.   

[BrianMcG]

Make the putt next time. 

[Augster]

One time my friend’s ball was 1” OB and we were playing LCP “everywhere”. He used his 6” to bring it back in play. 
 

LCP “everywhere” is stupid. 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

What does "He could have fudged his placement " mean?

Taken a bit more than the 6” allowed to avoid the tree root.

[antip]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

One time my friend’s ball was 1” OB and we were playing LCP “everywhere”. He used his 6” to bring it back in play. 
 

Very inventive.

 

3 hours ago, Augster said:

LCP “everywhere” is stupid. 

Yup. That would be one of the more stupid pros I've heard of. As close to rules-brain dead as you can get. 

[Mr. Bean]

18 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Possibly, or because of the conditions and it being golf league just chose to make it more expansive than the Rules would suggest for convenience.  If the Rules were strictly followed in our league, we’d only have about 3 teams, lol. 

 

LC&P can in no circumstances be applied in Penalty Areas, i.e. everywhere on the course.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

LC&P can in no circumstances be applied in Penalty Areas, i.e. everywhere on the course.

Yes, nobody disputes that's what the ROG provide.  

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

Yes, nobody disputes that's what the ROG provide.  

That is why the pro had no clue...

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

That is why the pro had no clue...

He can know what the ROG provide and still declare something different for the league if he wants - may have been intentional, maybe not - getting wound up about the pro having "no clue" or someone else calling him "stupid" and suggesting other club pros are apparently just "less stupid" really isn't fair or productive. 

Edited August 11, 2024 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He can know what the ROG provide and still declare something different for the league if he wants - may have been intentional, maybe not - getting wound up about the pro having "no clue" or someone else calling him "stupid" and suggesting other club pros are apparently just "less stupid" really isn't fair or productive. 

 

What are you talking about?!?!? I simply said that THIS PARTICULAR PRO had no clue.

 

Are you a relative to that pro or why are you defending him so eagerly? After all, he made a huge blunder.

[Hawkeye77]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What are you talking about?!?!? I simply said that THIS PARTICULAR PRO had no clue.

 

Are you a relative to that pro or why are you defending him so eagerly? After all, he made a huge blunder.

 

I'm just not jumping to conclusions, reread the post.  You still are, lol.

 

And yep, he's my sister.

[antip]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What are you talking about?!?!? I simply said that THIS PARTICULAR PRO had no clue.

 

Are you a relative to that pro or why are you defending him so eagerly? After all, he made a huge blunder.

LOL, Hawkeye just enjoys sniping at certain other contributors from time to time, pay it no mind. 

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, antip said:

LOL, Hawkeye just enjoys sniping at certain other contributors from time to time, pay it no mind. 

 

No, simply commenting relevant to the discussion. And you want to deflect from your remarks with this? Not cool. 

 

Suggesting it’s not fair to refer to the club pro as “brain dead” and suggesting it’s not fair to generalize club pros as “stupid”  isn’t sniping —— seriously, what’s your problem with club pros that the guy in the original post is one of the “more stupid” ones you’ve “heard of”? 

 

 

[antip]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

No, simply commenting relevant to the discussion. And you want to deflect from your remarks with this? Not cool. 

 

Suggesting it’s not fair to refer to the club pro as “brain dead” and suggesting it’s not fair to generalize club pros as “stupid”  isn’t sniping —— seriously, what’s your problem with club pros that the guy in the original post is one of the “more stupid” ones you’ve “heard of”? 

 

 

I affirm my previous comment and would double it, it's up there with the dumbest presentation of a local rule I have come across in many decades on golf courses, an indefensible distortion of the rules of golf that I find shocking by someone that takes their living from the sport. If you want deflection, then you'll need to find it elsewhere.

But I'm not going to indulge myself in taking potshots at other contributors to this site just because their view is different from mine. 

[Hawkeye77]

27 minutes ago, antip said:

I affirm my previous comment and would double it, it's up there with the dumbest presentation of a local rule I have come across in many decades on golf courses, an indefensible distortion of the rules of golf that I find shocking by someone that takes their living from the sport. If you want deflection, then you'll need to find it elsewhere.

But I'm not going to indulge myself in taking potshots at other contributors to this site just because their view is different from mine. 

 

The only "potshot" taken in this thread was by you, nobody else personalized the discussion.  

 

The overreaction to a pro telling people to LCP "everywhere" in a fun weekly league being played in crappy conditions is a bit bizarre and you definitely "doubled down" on it, lol. 

 

OP was there, knows the guy, and hasn't suggested anything close to the pro being stupid or dumb - so I don't see the need to jump to conclusions about his intelligence, act like the foundations of the ROG have been shaken in some way or, as you've done, paint club pros with the "stupid" brush.  

 

I mean, I'm sure if you were there you'd have called him out and told him he was stupid and dumb and given all these soon to be drenched league players chapter and verse and . . . been tossed in the pool!  We don't have a pool at our course, so you'd have probably just been elected President and Rules Chair of the league by acclamation and good luck with that, haha.  

 

The outrage is just odd. 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Hawkeye77

[bluedot]

Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.
 

At best, whatever he intended, the pro did a poor job of explaining the way LCP was going to be used on that course that night.  He likely mistakenly assumed that everyone would know that penalty areas weren’t to be played LCP, but that’s on him, not the players.

 

Edit: I should have said “closely mown” instead of “in your own fairway”.

Edited August 12, 2024 by bluedot

[antip]

14 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.
 

At best, whatever he intended, the pro did a poor job of explaining the way LCP was going to be used on that course that night.  He likely mistakenly assumed that everyone would know that penalty areas weren’t to be played LCP, but that’s on him, not the players.

No one has raised the observation yet, but the words used by the pro also enabled preferred lies on the putting green. Words matter, get them right.

[Hawkeye77]

On 8/10/2024 at 12:33 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

Playing in our Thursday night men’s league in steady rain, our pro informs us that due to the conditions, we will be playing lift, clean, and place everywhere. No liberties with positioning the ball, using the 6-inch rule. My match is all square coming to our final hole. It’s a par 3 modeled after Augusta National’s 12th hole. The green has a false front that causes many shots to roll down the hill into the pond. My opponent’s ball has rolled down the hill, across the red hazard line, but inches short of the water. My ball is on the green with a birdie putt of approximately 15-feet. I did not witness what my opponent did, but another fellow in our group walked over to me and whispered, “your opponent placed his ball on a tuft of grass within the hazard line”. He played a beautiful pitch to about 2 1/2 feet. If we are playing lift, clean, and place everywhere, does that include inside the hazard line? We halved the hole in pars and I made no issue of what allegedly occurred. It’s Saturday afternoon and I’ve been thinking about it. Was there a rules violation? I won’t lose a second of sleep over it, but am curious as to the ruling. I may ask our pro, but don’t want to make a big deal out of it. 
 

One more thing to add, regarding my opponent. He played by the book for our entire match, including a wayward drive he hit that landed at the base of a rotting tree stump. He could have fudged his placement but adhered to the 6” rule. Very honorable! 

Purely out of curiosity, and not suggesting you would even need to, just wondering if you had a chance to ask the pro?  And would understand completely if you felt it wasn't worth asking about.  

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, antip said:

I affirm my previous comment and would double it, it's up there with the dumbest presentation of a local rule I have come across in many decades on golf courses, an indefensible distortion of the rules of golf that I find shocking by someone that takes their living from the sport. If you want deflection, then you'll need to find it elsewhere.

But I'm not going to indulge myself in taking potshots at other contributors to this site just because their view is different from mine. 

While all that is true...The USGA SWAT team isn't coming for that pro. State association might have a thing or two to say to maybe with regards of the course's membership status. I havent heard of a course having its membership revoked over such an issue, not saying it hasnt happened. 

 

LCP everywhere is certainly a disservice to its players , especially when they go elsewhere to play or when they play events at the same course and normal rules apply.  Same thing happens in other sports where rules modifications are made in local leagues and they go play tournaments where those modifications dont exist they get mad and the officials at the event are always the bad guy, not their home league that started this nonsense

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, bluedot said:

Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.

 

The principles of Model Local Rule E-3 (Preferred Lies) do not allow LCP to be in force in bunkers. Such a Local Rule is against the Rules of Golf and is not to be implemented unless it has been approved by USGA. Has it?

[nsxguy]

On 8/10/2024 at 1:33 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

Playing in our Thursday night men’s league in steady rain, our pro informs us that due to the conditions, we will be playing lift, clean, and place everywhere. No liberties with positioning the ball, using the 6-inch rule.

 

My match is all square coming to our final hole. It’s a par 3 modeled after Augusta National’s 12th hole. The green has a false front that causes many shots to roll down the hill into the pond. My opponent’s ball has rolled down the hill, across the red hazard line, but inches short of the water.

 

My ball is on the green with a birdie putt of approximately 15-feet. I did not witness what my opponent did, but another fellow in our group walked over to me and whispered, “your opponent placed his ball on a tuft of grass within the hazard line”.

 

He played a beautiful pitch to about 2 1/2 feet. If we are playing lift, clean, and place everywhere, does that include inside the hazard line? We halved the hole in pars and I made no issue of what allegedly occurred. It’s Saturday afternoon and I’ve been thinking about it. Was there a rules violation? I won’t lose a second of sleep over it, but am curious as to the ruling. I may ask our pro, but don’t want to make a big deal out of it. 
 

One more thing to add, regarding my opponent. He played by the book for our entire match, including a wayward drive he hit that landed at the base of a rotting tree stump. He could have fudged his placement but adhered to the 6” rule. Very honorable! 

 

I see you've been around since you started the topic, but haven't commented since.

 

But I've got a question or 6 if you don't mind ?

 

"we will be playing lift, clean, and place everywhere. No liberties with positioning the ball, using the 6-inch rule."

 

What does the "no liberties" part mean ? "Strictly 6 inches" ?

 

Were those the exact words he used ? Or paraphrased - as you understood it ?

 

Has your league used the MLR "often enough" so that the Pro would've believed everybody understood what he meant (if not "everywhere") ?

 

I mean the MLR ALWAYS says no closer to the hole, no ? Yet he didn't say that. So perhaps "in the general area", or in an area cut to fairway height", was expected to be understood ? 

 

How many players were there when the Pro said this ? Did he tell everybody as they signed up ? Hand out a sheet ? All in a group ? Some players knew, others didn't ?

 

All of these things are at least somewhat germane and after all, you DID post this in a Rules Forum. So one could hardly be surprised that rules official types and the "Let's just have fun out there" types would clash/overreact/etc.

[Mr. Bean]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:33 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

One more thing to add, regarding my opponent. He played by the book for our entire match, including a wayward drive he hit that landed at the base of a rotting tree stump. He could have fudged his placement but adhered to the 6” rule. Very honorable! 

 

Now as this "could have fudged" thing has been explained to me I need to ask you if you really think it is very honorable not to cheat but to play by the Rules? I mean, playing by the Rules is something that is expected from people playing golf. Cheating is not expected, quite on the contrary.