Rules Question

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now as this "could have fudged" thing has been explained to me I need to ask you if you really think it is very honorable not to cheat but to play by the Rules? I mean, playing by the Rules is something that is expected from people playing golf. Cheating is not expected, quite on the contrary.

 

Ever rolled through a stop sign when the road was totally clear and there was nobody around to see you ?

 

When one is a pedant, one must at least try to cover all the bases. Perhaps especially important in a language not one's own.

 

hon·or

/ˈänər/

noun

 

1. high respect; great esteem.

"his portrait hangs in the place of honor"

 

Similar: distinction privilege glory

 

2. adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct.

"I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty"

 

Similar: integrity honorableness honesty uprightness ethics morals

 

 

So, "honorable" ? Sure, why not ?

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Ever rolled through a stop sign when the road was totally clear and there was nobody around to see you ?

 

 

Even though we all are expected to follow the rules and regulations in everything we do it is a well known fact that none of us does. However, golf is different and it is supposed to be different. Golf is all about integrity.

 

So no, in my eyes there is nothing "very honorable" to act as expected in golf. If there was a person driving a car who never drives even slightly over the speed limit or does not break any of the laws about traffic, that person would be very honorable. But there is no such person and never will be.

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Even though we all are expected to follow the rules and regulations in everything we do it is a well known fact that none of us does. However, golf is different and it is supposed to be different. Golf is all about integrity.

 

So no, in my eyes there is nothing "very honorable" to act as expected in golf. If there was a person driving a car who never drives even slightly over the speed limit or does not break any of the laws about traffic, that person would be very honorable. But there is no such person and never will be.

 

To each his own. By all means, you do you.

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I see you've been around since you started the topic, but haven't commented since.

 

But I've got a question or 6 if you don't mind ?

 

"we will be playing lift, clean, and place everywhere. No liberties with positioning the ball, using the 6-inch rule."

 

What does the "no liberties" part mean ? "Strictly 6 inches" ?

 

Were those the exact words he used ? Or paraphrased - as you understood it ?

 

Has your league used the MLR "often enough" so that the Pro would've believed everybody understood what he meant (if not "everywhere") ?

 

I mean the MLR ALWAYS says no closer to the hole, no ? Yet he didn't say that. So perhaps "in the general area", or in an area cut to fairway height", was expected to be understood ? 

 

How many players were there when the Pro said this ? Did he tell everybody as they signed up ? Hand out a sheet ? All in a group ? Some players knew, others didn't ?

 

All of these things are at least somewhat germane and after all, you DID post this in a Rules Forum. So one could hardly be surprised that rules official types and the "Let's just have fun out there" types would clash/overreact/etc.

 

Why would the OP stick around for the firestorm, and why does 'It's the rules forum' give the 'Rules are sacrosanct' people (a term I use opposite 'rules am stoopid' people which often gets tossed about here) or anyone really the right to lose their minds over it? Sure it's the internet, but I would say anyone could be surprised at this reaction. 

 

Also, if the OP had posted this question in "General talk" it would wind up moved here anyway... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

9 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

Why would the OP stick around for the firestorm, and why does 'It's the rules forum' give the 'Rules are sacrosanct' people (a term I use opposite 'rules am stoopid' people which often gets tossed about here) or anyone really the right to lose their minds over it? Sure it's the internet, but I would say anyone could be surprised at this reaction. 

 

Also, if the OP had posted this question in "General talk" it would wind up moved here anyway... 

 

 

 

 

 

Surely a Rules Forum should be about "What is the right Rule for this situation?" or "I don't like this Rule for the following reason(s) ......" or possibly "Should this Rule be modified?".

Not "How can I bend this Rule without cheating?" or "How can I bend this Rule without any one noticing I'm cheating?"

[James the Hogan Fan]

6 minutes ago, Newby said:

Surely a Rules Forum should be about "What is the right Rule for this situation?" or "I don't like this Rule for the following reason(s) ......" or possibly "Should this Rule be modified?".

Not "How can I bend this Rule without cheating?" or "How can I bend this Rule without any one noticing I'm cheating?"

I agree with that, but that doesn't seem applicable to this post.

 

The OP thought a local rule made up by his club pro for an event seemed contrary to the spirit of the rules of golf. Based on what we know, I'd say that's true. Based on what we know the opponent proceeded under a reasonable interpretation of a wrong decision by the committee. 

 

As it was (implied to be) match play, the OP could have made a claim, and the two players would have to decide it between themselves or bring it to the attention of the pro. The pro would be in the unenviable position of having to change his rule on the fly (which could give the appearance of trying to hurt the opponent's chances) or sticking to his "incorrect" local rule, drawing the (justifiable) ire of the OP. 

 

The OP probably could have clarified before the round "wait, everywhere-everywhere?", but probably did not anticipate the rule being bent in this manner. 

 

There's constructive lessons to be learned here, but here we are arguing over the 'stupidity' of a club pro. 

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

Why would the OP stick around for the firestorm, and why does 'It's the rules forum' give the 'Rules are sacrosanct' people (a term I use opposite 'rules am stoopid' people which often gets tossed about here) or anyone really the right to lose their minds over it? Sure it's the internet, but I would say anyone could be surprised at this reaction. 

 

Also, if the OP had posted this question in "General talk" it would wind up moved here anyway... 

 

 

Well, you're no doubt right about the topic being moved here if he'd started it elsewhere. Then again, I didn't mean to suggest he posted it in the wrong forum but just pointing out that he was looking for a rules-based "decision". Sorry if that was misleading.

 

Also, the "rules am stupid" stuff doesn't apply here. That generally comes out after someone insists a rule is stupid (or similar) and keeps pushing the point.

 

Posters coming up with legitimate ideas to fix/change a rule are typically responded to with normal discussion-based push/pull comments.

 

The only "stupid" references (in this thread) are about the pro and whether he or his LCP statement, is/was "stupid" for saying "LCP everywhere".

 

The OP WAS reading the thread after he posted it and so, likely read most of the early comments. But apparently, he chose NOT to clarify anything, hence my points/questions. He may have quelled much of the tempest in a teapot between the 3 posters involved.

 

Oh well, anudder day in the life of the Rules Forum. 

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

I agree with that, but that doesn't seem applicable to this post.

 

The OP thought a local rule made up by his club pro for an event seemed contrary to the spirit of the rules of golf. Based on what we know, I'd say that's true. Based on what we know the opponent proceeded under a reasonable interpretation of a wrong decision by the committee. 

 

As it was (implied to be) match play, the OP could have made a claim, and the two players would have to decide it between themselves or bring it to the attention of the pro. The pro would be in the unenviable position of having to change his rule on the fly (which could give the appearance of trying to hurt the opponent's chances) or sticking to his "incorrect" local rule, drawing the (justifiable) ire of the OP. 

 

The OP probably could have clarified before the round "wait, everywhere-everywhere?", but probably did not anticipate the rule being bent in this manner. 

 

There's constructive lessons to be learned here, but here we are arguing over the 'stupidity' of a club pro. 

 

All true. And to the OP's credit, he did state he didn't care about the outcome of the hole in question and mainly wanted to know about the "everywhere".

 

And why I asked the OP to comment on various points, especially the one about when the pro told people and possibly get a reason for no one saying "Everywhere ?".

[Mr. Bean]

On 8/12/2024 at 6:00 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

The principles of Model Local Rule E-3 (Preferred Lies) do not allow LCP to be in force in bunkers. Such a Local Rule is against the Rules of Golf and is not to be implemented unless it has been approved by USGA. Has it?

 

So far nobody has commented my question. Does anybody have solid information whether USGA has taken a stand on this issue?

 

Around here LC&P in bunkers is unheard.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Mr. Bean
typo

[Colin L]

22 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So far nobody has commented my question. Does anybody have solid information whether USGA has taken a stand on this issue?

 

Around here LC&P in bunkers is unheard.

 

 

Perhaps because your question has been buried under a pile of tedious bickering.  

 

I doubt if the USGA would need to take a stance when it is a partner in making the rules which clearly do not allow for preferred lies in bunkers and there is provision for areas in a bunker such as washed out parts to be identified as GUR.         

[Mr. Bean]

29 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Perhaps because your question has been buried under a pile of tedious bickering.  

 

I doubt if the USGA would need to take a stance when it is a partner in making the rules which clearly do not allow for preferred lies in bunkers and there is provision for areas in a bunker such as washed out parts to be identified as GUR.         

 

Reflecting on what you say it is even more bizarre that this LC&P has been used in US, apparently quite widely, afa all the posts about it on this forum let us believe.

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Reflecting on what you say it is even more bizarre that this LC&P has been used in US, apparently quite widely, afa all the posts about it on this forum let us believe.

I think the “quite broadly” is not the situation. I have never hear of LCP “everywhere” as acceptable anywhere. No doubt there are some casual players who play that way. 

[nsxguy]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Reflecting on what you say it is even more bizarre that this LC&P has been used in US, apparently quite widely, afa all the posts about it on this forum let us believe.

 

As you know, and sometimes allude to, here in the States the game isn't always played with the same reverence as on your side of the pond. <-- How's that for understatement ? 

 

My old club in NYC played on a muni. As well it was always in terrible shape. Fairway and greens were rock hard, divots "never" seemed to heal, etc.

 

And other than our club, nobody (OK, very few), raked the bunkers after they left them. I'm not even sure how often the grounds crew raked the bunkers before a day's play.

 

When I first joined the club they played LCP in one's own fairway and "smooth and place" in the bunkers.

 

About 4 years later NYC's mayor decided to have an outing at our course that June. From opening day until the outing, lots of ca$h was put into the course. Fairways were green and almost lush, greens rolled true, etc. Our version of heaven.

 

Our president declared "no more LCP (except when warranted) and no more S&P in bunkers".

 

Now as to how prevalent this sort of thing was around the country, I have no idea. 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I think the “quite broadly” is not the situation. I have never hear of LCP “everywhere” as acceptable anywhere. No doubt there are some casual players who play that way. 

 

My question was not about everywhere but in a bunker.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As you know, and sometimes allude to, here in the States the game isn't always played with the same reverence as on your side of the pond. <-- How's that for understatement ? 

 

My old club in NYC played on a muni. As well it was always in terrible shape. Fairway and greens were rock hard, divots "never" seemed to heal, etc.

 

And other than our club, nobody (OK, very few), raked the bunkers after they left them. I'm not even sure how often the grounds crew raked the bunkers before a day's play.

 

When I first joined the club they played LCP in one's own fairway and "smooth and place" in the bunkers.

 

About 4 years later NYC's mayor decided to have an outing at our course that June. From opening day until the outing, lots of ca$h was put into the course. Fairways were green and almost lush, greens rolled true, etc. Our version of heaven.

 

Our president declared "no more LCP (except when warranted) and no more S&P in bunkers".

 

Now as to how prevalent this sort of thing was around the country, I have no idea. 

 

 

 

When you play simply for fun and are not keeping a handicap you are free to play however you want, as long as you follow the Etiquette. The "problem" seems to be that for handicap rounds any rules-ignorant can form a committee of their own within a group and still post the scores.

 

I can understand that on muni courses conditions may be challenging from time to time but when one plays a handicap round one is supposed to play it by the Rules of Golf.

[nsxguy]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When you play simply for fun and are not keeping a handicap you are free to play however you want, as long as you follow the Etiquette. The "problem" seems to be that for handicap rounds any rules-ignorant can form a committee of their own within a group and still post the scores.

 

I can understand that on muni courses conditions may be challenging from time to time but when one plays a handicap round one is supposed to play it by the Rules of Golf.

 

We were an organized USGA member club.

 

While I agree with everything you've said here, the result is we kept club handicaps along with USGA handicaps.

 

Probably not a big issue in the overall scheme of things but during that period we ALL had vanity caps and most of the club never played in an outside event anyway.

 

It is what it is, and like I said, I have NO idea how prevalent any of this is in the USA at this point.

 

What I DO know is one local game uses LCP in the general area ALWAYS until they changed it a year ago to one's own fairway. It's a q

 

Another game uses it always, in the fairway only, for pace of play. They also keep their own handicaps, and have their own unique system of changing handicaps.

 

Another game I've played in also keeps its own handicaps, and they use best 5 of last 10.

 

Should add it probably doesn't matter but all these games are older players. Very few under 60 and many 70+, aren't entering any "outside" tournaments anytime soon. And I'm not sure if any one of them has a GHIN handicap.

 

I've been keeping mine regardless of the local rules in place, knowing it is a vanity 'cap, but as I'm not playing in any other games, and all the games keep their OWN 'caps, I'm not too worried about it. I may very well give up my GHIN at the end of the year.

 

Again though, this is a group of older guys and not very good players anyway so this shouldn't be taken as a reflection of USA golf as a whole.

 

But I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what percentage of golfers who KEEP official handicaps, are in total compliance. 

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

We were an organized USGA member club.

 

While I agree with everything you've said here, the result is we kept club handicaps along with USGA handicaps.

 

Probably not a big issue in the overall scheme of things but during that period we ALL had vanity caps and most of the club never played in an outside event anyway.

 

It is what it is, and like I said, I have NO idea how prevalent any of this is in the USA at this point.

 

What I DO know is one local game uses LCP in the general area ALWAYS until they changed it a year ago to one's own fairway. It's a q

 

Another game uses it always, in the fairway only, for pace of play. They also keep their own handicaps, and have their own unique system of changing handicaps.

 

Another game I've played in also keeps its own handicaps, and they use best 5 of last 10.

 

Should add it probably doesn't matter but all these games are older players. Very few under 60 and many 70+, aren't entering any "outside" tournaments anytime soon. And I'm not sure if any one of them has a GHIN handicap.

 

I've been keeping mine regardless of the local rules in place, knowing it is a vanity 'cap, but as I'm not playing in any other games, and all the games keep their OWN 'caps, I'm not too worried about it. I may very well give up my GHIN at the end of the year.

 

Again though, this is a group of older guys and not very good players anyway so this shouldn't be taken as a reflection of USA golf as a whole.

 

But I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what percentage of golfers who KEEP official handicaps, are in total compliance. 

 

Yep, the leagues at our course (except the women's when they had one - play it as it lies and no gimmees for them, God bless them) all roll the ball, not even a pretense at posting LCP, lol, and they have USGA handicaps and no doubt vanity caps.  Do any of them use those handicaps and play anywhere else in real competitions? Nope.  Would they play league if they couldn't roll the ball the way they have for decades? There would be a revolt, haha.  I've seen the same elsewhere.  Some leagues, folks want to just go out for the evening and play their version of golf and they aren't hurting a soul and having a good time and OB and penalty area rules are done pretty well.  I've played in one for 30 years, one of the longest running members of the league, and seen it all.  I'd love it if we played Goldfinger "strict rules of golf" and ball in bottom of the cup to end each hole, but we don't and in the evening after work I'm not interested in anything but trying to unwind if possible. Happy to chime in if someone asks about a situation or it looks like something glaringly wrong is about to occur, but those situations are happily few and far between. 

 

Things are definitely different in the UK and Ireland and I applaud the differences and am a little envious of the golf culture there for sure.

[antip]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:00 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

The principles of Model Local Rule E-3 (Preferred Lies) do not allow LCP to be in force in bunkers. Such a Local Rule is against the Rules of Golf and is not to be implemented unless it has been approved by USGA. Has it?

I don't think Bluedot was referring to LCP in bunkers, the reference was to washaways, which is  very commonly defined as GUR - so I suspect that is the bunker relief Bluedot had in mind. I do not believe LCP in bunkers has ever had a Ruling Body tick. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, antip said:

I don't think Bluedot was referring to LCP in bunkers, the reference was to washaways, which is  very commonly defined as GUR - so I suspect that is the bunker relief Bluedot had in mind. I do not believe LCP in bunkers has ever had a Ruling Body tick. 

 He was referring to bunkers, that is clear. Also some other posters during past years have said the same: smooth & place.

[antip]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 He was referring to bunkers, that is clear. Also some other posters during past years have said the same: smooth & place.

I don't recall bumping into this (bizarre) suggestion previously. And I've definitely not come across a ruling body giving explicit or implicit support for this. 

But I note if you combine putting preferred lies in place in the general area AND declare a specific bunker (or bunkers) to be GUR (flooded, renovations or whatever), the player may lift and place their ball in that sand.

[nsxguy]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:34 AM, bluedot said:

Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.
 

At best, whatever he intended, the pro did a poor job of explaining the way LCP was going to be used on that course that night.  He likely mistakenly assumed that everyone would know that penalty areas weren’t to be played LCP, but that’s on him, not the players.

 

Edit: I should have said “closely mown” instead of “in your own fairway”.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 He was referring to bunkers, that is clear. Also some other posters during past years have said the same: smooth & place.

 

Yes, he DID refer to bunkers. Yes, *I* mentioned "smooth and place" earlier in the thread.

 

I mean, if you're going to be so quick to jump on posters you might want to spend a bit of time to "fact-check".

 

Or at least offer an apology, an "Oops", "my bad", or similar.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Yes, he DID refer to bunkers. Yes, *I* mentioned "smooth and place" earlier in the thread.

 

I mean, if you're going to be so quick to jump on posters you might want to spend a bit of time to "fact-check".

 

Or at least offer an apology, an "Oops", "my bad", or similar.

 

 

 

 

I don't follow. Bluedot wrote that he has heard of LCP in bunkers which I referred to. Did that make you feel bad or what kind of mistake was made?

[Newby]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:34 PM, bluedot said:

Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.
 

Doesn't the LR require the ball to be in the general area. Bunkers are not part of that area unless .....

Edited August 15, 2024 by Newby

[nsxguy]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:34 AM, bluedot said:

Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas.

 

On 8/12/2024 at 11:00 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

The principles of Model Local Rule E-3 (Preferred Lies) do not allow LCP to be in force in bunkers. Such a Local Rule is against the Rules of Golf and is not to be implemented unless it has been approved by USGA. Has it?

 

On 8/14/2024 at 5:32 AM, antip said:

I don't think Bluedot was referring to LCP in bunkers, the reference was to washaways, which is  very commonly defined as GUR - so I suspect that is the bunker relief Bluedot had in mind. I do not believe LCP in bunkers has ever had a Ruling Body tick. 

 

On 8/14/2024 at 9:01 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 He was referring to bunkers, that is clear. Also some other posters during past years have said the same: smooth & place.

 

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I don't follow. Bluedot wrote that he has heard of LCP in bunkers which I referred to. Did that make you feel bad or what kind of mistake was made?

 

No, Bluedot did NOT write that he'd "heard about LCP in bunkers". And no, it did NOT make me feel bad. 

 

While BD DID mention LCP in the same post, he specifically referred to "WASHOUTS, ETC" IN a/the bunker. i.e. NOT "LCP".

 

Your "He was referring to bunkers" was to antip's post where antip (almost certainly), correctly suggested BD meant washouts/GUR rather than LCP.

 

And you replied to antip "He was referring to bunkers." You were literally correct that BD did refer to bunkers but was NOT referring to LCP in bunkers but "washouts, etc." in bunkers.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it was *I* who told about my club playing LCP in bunkers for several years before we stopped it. Perhaps it was that remark that confused you ?

 

[tatertot]

Can you LCP in somebody's yard across the street from the course?

Edited August 15, 2024 by tatertot

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

 

 

No, Bluedot did NOT write that he'd "heard about LCP in bunkers". And no, it did NOT make me feel bad. 

 

While BD DID mention LCP in the same post, he specifically referred to "WASHOUTS, ETC" IN a/the bunker. i.e. NOT "LCP".

 

Your "He was referring to bunkers" was to antip's post where antip (almost certainly), correctly suggested BD meant washouts/GUR rather than LCP.

 

And you replied to antip "He was referring to bunkers." You were literally correct that BD did refer to bunkers but was NOT referring to LCP in bunkers but "washouts, etc." in bunkers.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it was *I* who told about my club playing LCP in bunkers for several years before we stopped it. Perhaps it was that remark that confused you ?

 

 

Bluedot wrote this:

 

"Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.  Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas."

 

I cannot not see any other way to interpret that paragraph than him referring to LCP in bunkers. If he was not doing that then he wrote incorrectly.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Bluedot wrote this:

 

"Great example of why LCP is almost always limited to “in your own fairway”.  

 

But I’ve NEVER known of a situation where LCP included penalty areas.

 

Bunkers that have washouts, etc, yes, but never penalty areas."

 

I cannot not see any other way to interpret that paragraph than him referring to LCP in bunkers. If he was not doing that then he wrote incorrectly.

 

Around here unrepaired washouts would be declared GUR.

 

As written, I understood it what BD  meant. antip, an Australian I believe, appears to have understood it.

 

Didn't notice anyone else objecting to it.

 

Oh well.

 

Surprised you didn't.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Around here unrepaired washouts would be declared GUR.

 

As written, I understood it what BD  meant. antip, an Australian I believe, appears to have understood it.

 

Didn't notice anyone else objecting to it.

 

Oh well.

 

Surprised you didn't.

 

So, where's the "oops" as you were wrong..?

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, where's the "oops" as you were wrong..?

 

Well..?

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well..?

 

LOL

 

When Bluedot swings by and tells us he meant LCP in the bunker, rather than treating it as GUR, THEN you get your "Oops".